Surly with built-in Xtracycle

Erik Sandblom said:

Hello

Xtracycle is selling a lot of their Free Radical kits which move your rear
wheel back 40cm. That way you can carry more stuff, even passengers.

Now Surly, a bike maker, is going to sell readymade "longtail" bikes. No
more kit-building.

todd.cleverchimp.comblogOpen ↗

For those who live in non-flat areas, one consideration is the weight of
these bikes. As I understand it, a complete Xtracycle bike weighs a little
over 20kg. The 8-freight, not too dissimilar, also weighs 20kg.
bikefix.co.ukindex.phpOpen ↗

Some other popular cargo bikes are the Bakfiets Cargobike and the
Christiania trike. They weigh 35-40kg.
bakfiets.nlmodels cargo bike.phpOpen ↗
christianiabikes.comchristianiabikes.comOpen ↗

I have never ridden or weighed any of these bikes myself, but as I see it,
the Bakfiets Cargobike and the Christiania trike have the advantage that
the cargo is low, centred, and in full view. Neither the Xtracycle nor the
8-Freight let you see your cargo, though the 8-Freight has the cargo low
and centred.

The Xtracycle seems the only one that will carry an adult passenger.

What are your thoughts?

Erik Sandblom

...

Nice one Erik.

This is one sweet looking bike!

I hadn't even seen the xtracycle bolt-on before so I'm pretty blown away by this.

Now, I'm wondering again about that framebuilding course I'm on next month........

:o)

Wheelist

In rec.bicycles.tech Erik Sandblom said:

Hello

Xtracycle is selling a lot of their Free Radical kits which move your rear
wheel back 40cm. That way you can carry more stuff, even passengers.

Now Surly, a bike maker, is going to sell readymade "longtail" bikes. No
more kit-building.

http://todd.cleverchimp.com/blog/?p=150

For those who live in non-flat areas, one consideration is the weight of
these bikes. As I understand it, a complete Xtracycle bike weighs a little
over 20kg. The 8-freight, not too dissimilar, also weighs 20kg.
http://www.bikefix.co.uk/index.php?get_ol_id=9&get_gl_id=53&get_sgl_id=140

It's really not that bad. I live in Seattle and even with my five year
old on back I think I've only dropped to my 22 once or twice. One thing
you really need to realize is that it is a *cargo* bike. You shouldn't
be trying to timetrial on it.

Quoted message said:

Some other popular cargo bikes are the Bakfiets Cargobike and the
Christiania trike. They weigh 35-40kg.

Very neat, and I've considered the Bakfiets, but the Xtracycle has the
great advantage of wide availability. I literally dropped the frame and
wheels at my LBS and had them attach the Xtracycle. [1] Three days
later I was riding it home.

Quoted message said:

I have never ridden or weighed any of these bikes myself, but as I see it,
the Bakfiets Cargobike and the Christiania trike have the advantage that
the cargo is low, centred, and in full view. Neither the Xtracycle nor the
8-Freight let you see your cargo, though the 8-Freight has the cargo low
and centred.

The cargo is fairly low on the Xtracycle actually. Generally about at
the wheel axle height. It would be nice if it was a touch more
centered, but it hasn't been a problem so far.

I'm not sure why I'd want the cargo in my view though. Are you planning
on transporting rabid caged animals? ;-)

Quoted message said:

The Xtracycle seems the only one that will carry an adult passenger.

I haven't put an adult on it yet, but it does do a lot of kid-hauling.

[1] They specialize in Xtracycles, and I actually bought it from them.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"LSD melts your mind, not in your hand."

Den 2006-09-28 18:24:51 skrev Dane Buson <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some other popular cargo bikes are the Bakfiets Cargobike and the
Christiania trike. They weigh 35-40kg.

Very neat, and I've considered the Bakfiets, but the Xtracycle has the
great advantage of wide availability.

Well I guess that depends a bit on where you live.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I have never ridden or weighed any of these bikes myself, but as I see
it,
the Bakfiets Cargobike and the Christiania trike have the advantage that
the cargo is low, centred, and in full view. Neither the Xtracycle nor
the
8-Freight let you see your cargo, though the 8-Freight has the cargo low
and centred.

The cargo is fairly low on the Xtracycle actually. Generally about at
the wheel axle height. It would be nice if it was a touch more
centered, but it hasn't been a problem so far.

I'm not sure why I'd want the cargo in my view though. Are you planning
on transporting rabid caged animals? ;-)

Outsize objects can be hard to lash, so it's good to see what happens as
you go over bumps. Or maybe I'm carrying a box of wine glasses or
something.

But mainly it's good to see what kids are doing, which is a main selling
point of the cargo-in-front bikes.

Erik Sandblom

--
my site is EriksRailNews.com

In rec.bicycles.tech Dane Buson said:

In rec.bicycles.tech Erik Sandblom said:

Outsize objects can be hard to lash, so it's good to see what happens as
you go over bumps. Or maybe I'm carrying a box of wine glasses or
something.

True, I haven't had the need yet to carry things yet.

^^^^^
That should be "to carry bulky things yet."

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"Judges, as a class, display, in the matter of arranging
alimony, that reckless generosity which is found only in men
who are giving away someone else's cash." -P. G. Wodehouse

In rec.bicycles.tech Jenny Brien said:

I've been thinking of getting an Xtracycle for load hauling and
passenger carrying, maybe eventually with a Stokemonkey power assist,
but I've been wondering about the longterm durability of solo parts in
that application. This got me thinking - does anyone use a tandem as
"long tail"? An obvious nod would be to swap the chainsets about so
that it could be ridden solo without the rear pedals getting in the way
of big loads.

I've considered such a scheme, but it seems a touch too close to madness
for my tastes. I know someone who's made a tallbike Xtracycle, which
acted as a tandem in that the bottom pedals were still there. It was
possible to sit on the snapdeck and pedal.

I've personally put various heavier duty parts on my Xtracycle precisely
because of the durability concerns.

Rear wheel : Gusset Jury 48 spoke 135mm OLD hub - 8/9 speed - disc
Sun CR-18 26" Rim
Front wheel: Standard 26" 36 spoke wheel.
Will be replaced with 48 spoke 26" wheel soon
Front brake: Cantilever with brake booster arch
Rear brake : Mechanical disk brake with 8" disc rotor
Tires : Schwalbe Marathon Plus

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
"A Sunday School is a prison in which children do penance for
the evil conscience of their parents." -H. L. Mencken

Erik Sandblom said:

I have never ridden or weighed any of these bikes myself, but as I see it,
the Bakfiets Cargobike and the Christiania trike have the advantage that
the cargo is low, centred, and in full view. Neither the Xtracycle nor the
8-Freight let you see your cargo, though the 8-Freight has the cargo low
and centred.

It's plain that you haven't ridden the front-loading trikes, or you'd
be hesitant to make comparisons between them and the bikes. I doubt
the trikes would be at all satisfactory above 10mph-- they can't lean
in turns, they don't have a bike's self-correcting steering, and they
lose efficiency to tire scrub. Because they are constantly twisted and
side-loaded, they benefit little from a bike frame's disproportionate
in-plane rigidity.

Cargo trikes are adept at carrying big things short distances at low
speeds over good surfaces. Xtracycles and 8-Freights are are in
another category with regard to speed, range, and tolerance of uneven
surfaces.

BTW, although the cargo bay on an 8-Freight is centered, the rear wheel
isn't. Mike Burroughs says this doesn't matter, but my own experiments
with offset rear wheels suggest it does. I'll wager the 8-Freight
pulls consistently to one side and does not permit the rider to let go
of the bars.

Chalo

Dane Buson said:

In rec.bicycles.tech Jenny Brien said:

I've been thinking of getting an Xtracycle for load hauling and
passenger carrying, maybe eventually with a Stokemonkey power assist,
but I've been wondering about the longterm durability of solo parts in
that application. This got me thinking - does anyone use a tandem as
"long tail"? An obvious nod would be to swap the chainsets about so
that it could be ridden solo without the rear pedals getting in the way
of big loads.

I've considered such a scheme, but it seems a touch too close to madness
for my tastes. I know someone who's made a tallbike Xtracycle, which
acted as a tandem in that the bottom pedals were still there. It was
possible to sit on the snapdeck and pedal.

Now that IS mad!

The "sit on the snapdeck and pedal" possibility had put me in mind of a
"donkeyback" tamdem. I'm in Northern Ireland, and I think I might
possibly be able to find a good used tandem for the 600 pounds or so it
would take to put together a basic Xtracycle rig. Then sling the load
(bales of turf, sacks of potatoes, cylinders of gas) from between the
seat posts, much as the Vietcong did on the Ho Chi Minh Trail.

http://www.transchool.eustis.army.mil/museum/VCBIKE.htm

Chalo said:

BTW, although the cargo bay on an 8-Freight is centered, the rear wheel
isn't. Mike Burroughs says this doesn't matter, but my own experiments
with offset rear wheels suggest it does. I'll wager the 8-Freight
pulls consistently to one side

IME, no. Or at least, not so you'd notice

Quoted message said:

and does not permit the rider to let go of the bars.

This however I found to be true, just because the steering is so
twitchy. http://www.coruskate.net/view/8Great

-dan

In article <[email hidden]>
Jenny Brien <[email hidden]> wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

I've been thinking of getting an Xtracycle for load hauling and
passenger carrying, maybe eventually with a Stokemonkey power assist,
but I've been wondering about the longterm durability of solo parts in
that application. This got me thinking - does anyone use a tandem as
"long tail"?

I've used mine to take cats and rabbits to the vet - just reverse the
stoker saddle, sit the pet carrier on the top tube and run a bungee from
the bars, round the seatpost and back again. It would be easy to make a
big slingover pannier type thing to carry stuff, although you might need
to make some sort of cover for the cranks to stop them fouling it. I
don't think it would be as practical to fit a load platform over the top
tube, as it would probably be too high to carry heavy stuff safely.

Rob Morley said:

I've used mine to take cats and rabbits to the vet - just reverse the
stoker saddle, sit the pet carrier on the top tube and run a bungee from
the bars, round the seatpost and back again. It would be easy to make a
big slingover pannier type thing to carry stuff, although you might need
to make some sort of cover for the cranks to stop them fouling it.

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set. That way you could remove the back set
completely when using it as a longtail load-carrier, or else just
remove the timing chain and let the back cranks rest horizontal.

In article <[email hidden]>

Jenny Brien said:

Rob Morley said:

I've used mine to take cats and rabbits to the vet - just reverse the
stoker saddle, sit the pet carrier on the top tube and run a bungee from
the bars, round the seatpost and back again. It would be easy to make a
big slingover pannier type thing to carry stuff, although you might need
to make some sort of cover for the cranks to stop them fouling it.

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set. That way you could remove the back set
completely when using it as a longtail load-carrier, or else just
remove the timing chain and let the back cranks rest horizontal.

I don't fancy having that length of chain unsupported - I reckon it
would make life hard for the derailleurs, and slap around all over the
place.

quote='Dane Buson'In rec.bicycles.tech Jenny Brien said:

I've been thinking of getting an Xtracycle for load hauling and
passenger carrying, maybe eventually with a Stokemonkey power assist,
but I've been wondering about the longterm durability of solo parts in
that application. This got me thinking - does anyone use a tandem as
"long tail"? An obvious nod would be to swap the chainsets about so
that it could be ridden solo without the rear pedals getting in the way
of big loads.

[/QUOTE]

Seem to remember seeing a picture somewhere of a bloke who had cycled round the world, who had used a tandem as a solo with all his gear carried behind him in various panniers

Bryan

In article said:

Jenny Brien said:

Rob Morley said:

I've used mine to take cats and rabbits to the vet - just reverse the
stoker saddle, sit the pet carrier on the top tube and run a bungee from
the bars, round the seatpost and back again. It would be easy to make a
big slingover pannier type thing to carry stuff, although you might need
to make some sort of cover for the cranks to stop them fouling it.

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set. That way you could remove the back set
completely when using it as a longtail load-carrier, or else just
remove the timing chain and let the back cranks rest horizontal.

I don't fancy having that length of chain unsupported - I reckon it
would make life hard for the derailleurs, and slap around all over the
place.

It can be done: http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tancrank.htm, search for
"Front crossover drive". You could probably mount an old deraileur as an
intermediate chain support if it was a problem.

In article <[email hidden]>

Alan Braggins said:

In article said:

Jenny Brien said:

Rob Morley wrote:

> I've used mine to take cats and rabbits to the vet - just reverse the
> stoker saddle, sit the pet carrier on the top tube and run a bungee from
> the bars, round the seatpost and back again. It would be easy to make a
> big slingover pannier type thing to carry stuff, although you might need
> to make some sort of cover for the cranks to stop them fouling it.

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set. That way you could remove the back set
completely when using it as a longtail load-carrier, or else just
remove the timing chain and let the back cranks rest horizontal.

I don't fancy having that length of chain unsupported - I reckon it
would make life hard for the derailleurs, and slap around all over the
place.

It can be done: http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tancrank.htm, search for
"Front crossover drive". You could probably mount an old deraileur as an
intermediate chain support if it was a problem.

I know - I just don't like it as a solution :-)

Chalo Colina said:

Erik Sandblom said:

I have never ridden or weighed any of these bikes myself, but as I see it,
the Bakfiets Cargobike and the Christiania trike have the advantage that
the cargo is low, centred, and in full view. Neither the Xtracycle nor the
8-Freight let you see your cargo, though the 8-Freight has the cargo low
and centred.

It's plain that you haven't ridden the front-loading trikes, or you'd
be hesitant to make comparisons between them and the bikes. I doubt
the trikes would be at all satisfactory above 10mph-- they can't lean
in turns, they don't have a bike's self-correcting steering, and they
lose efficiency to tire scrub. Because they are constantly twisted and
side-loaded, they benefit little from a bike frame's disproportionate
in-plane rigidity.

Some cargo trikes can partially lean, such as these examples that use a
non-moment connection between the "tractor" and the cargo trailer:

<http://www.flevobikeusa.com/cart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=3>,
<http://organicengines.com/lazy-index.php?file=SUV_and_Pedicab/SUV/Yellownakedsideview.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.

Alan Braggins said:

In article said:

Jenny Brien <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set. That way you could remove the back set
completely when using it as a longtail load-carrier, or else just
remove the timing chain and let the back cranks rest horizontal.

I don't fancy having that length of chain unsupported - I reckon it
would make life hard for the derailleurs, and slap around all over the
place.

It can be done: http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tancrank.htm, search for
"Front crossover drive". You could probably mount an old deraileur as an
intermediate chain support if it was a problem.

A bit of research found this in the Proteus Frame Builders Handbook
(published in 1975, when 24 gears meant a six cog block and quad
chainrings):

<quote>
If the tandem is to be used with the drive chainwheels on the front
bottom bracket, it will be necessary to mount a fitting for an extra
derailleur spring under the rear bottom bracket. This is advisable if
the pilot is considerably stronger than the stoker, or if more than 15
gears are used. Tandems with 24 gears are are built this way since the
chain line is not a problem. Most derailleurs have too much tension in
the taut position and too little in the loose position. A long spring
attached with a pivotting rivet to the top of the cage and mounted
under the bottom bracket will eliminate this problem.
</quote>

The extra spring would have greatest effect when the cage was near
vertical, with the chain on the smaller rings or cogs.

Quoting Rob Morley <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Jenny Brien said:

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set.

I don't fancy having that length of chain unsupported - I reckon it
would make life hard for the derailleurs, and slap around all over the
place.

This arrangement is very common on touring tandems from the era of
rod-activated front derailleurs. In one respect it makes life easy for the
derailleurs, because there's very little cross-chaining, in effect. There
isn't much chain slap on them, but they may have different spring tensions
on the rear deraillear.

Sheldon Brown suggests it works fine, I see.
--
OPTIONS=name:Kirsty,menustyle:C,female,lit_corridor,standout,time,showexp,hilit
e_pet,catname:Akane,dogname:Ryoga,fruit:okonomiyaki,pickup_types:"!$?=/,scores:
5 top/2 around,color,boulder:0,autoquiver,autodig,disclose:yiyayvygyc,pickup_bu
rden:burdened,!cmdassist,msg_window:reversed,!sparkle,horsename:Rumiko,showrace

In article <[email hidden]>

David Damerell said:

Quoting Rob Morley <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Jenny Brien said:

That's why I suggested swapping the cranksets round so the final drive
comes from the front set.

I don't fancy having that length of chain unsupported - I reckon it
would make life hard for the derailleurs, and slap around all over the
place.

This arrangement is very common on touring tandems from the era of
rod-activated front derailleurs.

Thankfully technology has advanced somewhat since then.

Quoted message said:

In one respect it makes life easy for the
derailleurs, because there's very little cross-chaining, in effect.

Is that going to help the derailleurs? I can see that it would help
chain life, and possibly efficiency.

Quoted message said:

There isn't much chain slap on them, but they may have different
spring tensions on the rear deraillear.

A beefier spring would help in some ways, but possibly hinder in others
- it's certainly going to place more stress on the rear mech.

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown suggests it works fine, I see.

I'm sure it does, although I've never played with a tandem that had this
configuration.

In rec.bicycles.tech Jenny Brien said:

Dane Buson said:

In rec.bicycles.tech Jenny Brien said:

I've been thinking of getting an Xtracycle for load hauling and
passenger carrying, maybe eventually with a Stokemonkey power assist,
but I've been wondering about the longterm durability of solo parts in
that application. This got me thinking - does anyone use a tandem as
"long tail"? An obvious nod would be to swap the chainsets about so
that it could be ridden solo without the rear pedals getting in the way
of big loads.

I've considered such a scheme, but it seems a touch too close to madness
for my tastes. I know someone who's made a tallbike Xtracycle, which
acted as a tandem in that the bottom pedals were still there. It was
possible to sit on the snapdeck and pedal.

Now that IS mad!

Ah, and it appears Sheldon snapped a pic of it while he was at Interbike:

http://sheldonbrown.com/lasvegas/2006/pages/tallcolnago.html

The perspective on the shot is really wierd though.
It look very distorted to me.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
It is well known that *things* from undesirable universes are always seeking
an entrance into this one, which is the psychic equivalent of handy for the
buses and closer to the shops. -- Terry Pratchett, "The Light Fantastic"