Sunsets

In message <[email hidden]>, Phil Cook
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Chris Townsend said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Phil Cook
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 11:45:16 GMT, spongebob wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Give your camera to Paul and ask him to take a few pics the next time
>he's out photographing sunrises at 4am. Actually, I have a fabulous
>picture of Mt Cook that I took with my mates camera (with him on
>it).....I wonder who owns the copyright? Hmmm.

Well If you took the pic you do. If you were working for your mate he
does.

It's not quite as simple as that. If your mate asked you to take the
picture and told you where to take it from then he owns the copyright.
If you composed the picture and directed him then you own the
composition. However if your mate owns the camera and the film then he
owns the physical image but maybe not the composition.

What if you took it on his camera (composing as you wished) but with
your memory card? :-)

Call a lawyer :-)

I guess you would own the image as you owned the memory card and
composed the image. The camera would merely be a loaned tool.

The key is who owns the physical tools (camera, film, memory card) and
who owns the artistic product of using those tools.

Chris Townsend said:

The key is who owns the physical tools (camera, film, memory card) and
who owns the artistic product of using those tools.

As I understand it, from a business point of view, if someone pays you
to do a photographic job and they provide the film and other expenses
for you, then they own the film and thus the copyright, even though you
took the photos.

The alternative is to pay for the film yourself. Thus you retain your
own copyright. You'd then you'd sell the results to the buyer.

Basically it's the difference between being employed by someone to do a
job for them, or working as a freelance at your own expense. The
problem with the latter case is that if they don't like the photos they
don't have to buy them.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

AndyP said:

Is it possible to tell in advance when good sunsets or sunrises are
going to occur?

To a certain extent, yes, but it's a bit of a lottery, there are no
certainties.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Andrew said:

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to tell in advance when good sunsets or sunrises are
going to occur?

Generally when you don't have a camera with you.

By a very strange coincidence I always seem to have my camera with me
whenever I see a good sunrise/set. :-)

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

AndyP said:

I know the times. I meant can you tell if the sky is going to be
turned all shades of red, purple and pink from the preceding weather
conditions or any other factors.

Sometimes, but often with very short notice.

Quoted message said:

Or do certain areas of the UK get
better sunsets/sunrises than others?

Almost certainly. Clouds (or lack of) are a major factor in sunsets,
and topography has a big influence where clouds are concerned. I've
never studied this in any detail, but I do know of certain "classic"
locations for good sunrises and sets, but that may have more to do with
them being good photo viewpoints rather than the effects of topography
on the weather.

Quoted message said:

Something to do with dust in
the atmosphere isn't it?

Yep.

Quoted message said:

A few weeks back I was camped on top of
Beinn Sgritheall hoping for a good one to enhance the view over the
islands and out to sea but it wasn't anything to shout about. It
would be good if you could tell in advance.

You can, to a certain extent, for certain types of sunrises/sets.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Geoff Berrow said:

It was one of the best I've seen over Bakewell on Saturday.
www.ckdog.co.uk/sunset

Excellent clouds there. That's one of the most important elements of a
good sunset, but frustratingly rare to have really interesting ones.

Quoted message said:

Maybe could have taken more time and got better compositions

The cloud patterns are great in the first shot, but there's nothing of
any real interest in the foreground to set them off.

I think your second shot is the best, a very nice composition with
reflections in the lake. Reflections in water are a classic technique
to use during a sunset. I once used a muddy puddle on a building site,
but you'd never guess because the rest of the foreground is black.

Quoted message said:

but I
had a very dark wood to get through before I could get back to the
car...

I've noticed that too. It has an annoying habit of getting very dark
right after a sunset. A torch is thus a very useful addition to your
photo kit.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Chris Townsend said:

The key is who owns the physical tools (camera, film, memory card) and
who owns the artistic product of using those tools.

As I understand it, from a business point of view, if someone pays you
to do a photographic job and they provide the film and other expenses
for you, then they own the film and thus the copyright, even though you
took the photos.

If that is in the contract. Sometimes the contract says you have the
copyright and the person employing you to take the photographs has the
right of first use.

Quoted message said:

The alternative is to pay for the film yourself. Thus you retain your
own copyright. You'd then you'd sell the results to the buyer.

Which is what normally happens.

Quoted message said:

Basically it's the difference between being employed by someone to do a
job for them, or working as a freelance at your own expense. The
problem with the latter case is that if they don't like the photos they
don't have to buy them.

And in the former case if they don't like the photos they don't pay you.

Dewi said:

Quoted message said:

It would be good if you could tell in advance.

sorry, Impossible.

Not completely.

Quoted message said:

I'm not an expert, but

Erm, well I guess I am, sort of...

Quoted message said:

The clouds would have to be present

Not necessarily, you can get terrific rises and sets without clouds.
Depends what type you're after.

Quoted message said:

They would have to be the right sort

There is no right sort, but some are definitely better than others.
Good clouds can really make a sunset.

Quoted message said:

They would have to be in the right place

Indeed, and sometimes they aren't at all where you'd expect them, or
like them, to be.

Quoted message said:

The sun would need a line of sight to the clouds

Now you've hit the nail on the head. This is the most critical factor
in a sunset, and it can often be predicted! :-)

Quoted message said:

The atmosphere would have be right

Well the atmosphere is always there, and it will produce good results
whatever state it's in, provided the other elements are present.

Quoted message said:

So many variables...

Indeed. There are no certainties, there's a big lottery factor, but if
you have some of the above elements in your favour, the chances of a
good set/rise are much better.

Quoted message said:

After all, you don't see one every night do you...

Nope.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 20:41:21 +0100, "Paul Saunders"
<[email hidden]> uttered:

Quoted message said:

AndyP said:

Is it possible to tell in advance when good sunsets or sunrises are
going to occur?

To a certain extent, yes, but it's a bit of a lottery, there are no
certainties.

Paul

Go on then, tell him...

Give his some pointers...

I think we are all relying on you now.

--
Dewi,

(remove spin for email)

Okay then, here it is, a beginner's guide to sunsets and sunrises. I
realise I could write a huge amount about this subject, so I'll try to
keep this short and just point out some of the main points.

AndyP mentioned that it's "something to do with dust in the atmosphere"
and the critical factor that Dewi pointed out is that "the sun must have
a line of sight to the clouds".

So firstly, the atmosphere. It's full of dust, more sometimes than
others. Typically during a long dry sunny period the dust builds up,
resulting in haze. Whilst this is bad for landscape photography in
general, it can be good for sunsets.

On a shorter timescale, dust builds up during the day, so there's more
dust in the atmosphere at sunset (due to human activity throughout the
day - cars, industry etc.) than there is at sunrise. But whatever,
there's always a certain amount of dust present in the atmosphere.

When light rays travel through the atmosphere, the different wavelengths
of light are affected by dust. Blue wavelengths are "scattered" by dust
particles (which is why the sky looks blue) whilst red wavelengths are
"transmitted" through the dust, i.e. they aren't really affected.

As the sun sets the angle of the sun's rays pass through more and more
atmosphere. More blue light is scattered so less gets through,
resulting in the sun's rays getting redder and redder.

After the sun has dropped below the horizon, the rays pass through even
more atmosphere, so it gets redder still. If there are clouds above
you, these will be lit by the very red rays, resulting in red clouds.
This is what I call a "fire in the sky" type of sunset.

To get the reddest clouds the sun has to drop a long way below the
horizon. For this to happen there must be no other clouds in the way to
block the rays. Since the sun sets in the west it's imperative that
there must be no clouds over the Atlantic to the west of the UK. To
predict this you need to check the weather forecast. Ideally you need a
high pressure system over the Atlantic. This will usually mean that
there are no clouds to the west to block the sun's rays.

If you have clouds above you, they will turn a spectacular shade of red.
If not, you'll still get a great sunset anyway, like in my Worms Head
shot.

If there's a low pressure system to the west of Britain, forget it.
This is not uncommon.

Here's an example of an unexpected sunset after a day of walking in the
rain. Almost the entire sky was overcast, but there was a narrow clear
strip on the western horizon. Beyond that the sky over the Atlantic was
clear, resulting in the entire sky above me turning red. This was the
most memorable sunset I've ever seen, but ironically difficult to
capture well on film. I'd never have forgiven myeslf if I hadn't been
carrying all my camera gear through the rain that day.
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/pg/ff/cyrs75.jpg

So, the most important factor in a good sunset is a clear sky to the
west (high pressure over the Atlantic). By the same token, you
therefore need a clear sky to the east to get a good sunrise. If the
sky isn't clear to the east or west, then your sunrise or sunset can
suddenly "die" unexpectedly. One moment everything is looking good and
it seems to be improving, the next all the clouds turn grey! :-(

Clear skies to the east or west are predictable, just look for high
pressure on the weather charts. Unfortunately the other factors aren't
so predictable. Good clouds can make a sunset, but they can also kill
it if they're in the wrong place. For this reason, a good sunset can be
a very localised affair.

For example, driving down late to the Dartmoor expedition I witnessed a
fantastic "fire in the sky" sunset as I drove through Somerset. I
stopped at some services to photograph the event when it was at it's
height. This is a panorama of two 24mm shots, with the telegraph poles
cloned out.
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/misc/sunset1000.jpg

Anyway, when I reached the other members of the expedition on Dartmoor,
I mentioned the fantastic sunset and they said they hadn't seen
anything. Given that I was driving toward Dartmoor when I saw it, I
felt sure that the clouds I was seeing would have been visible to them,
but apparently not. So the sunset was a lot more localised than I
realised.

Speaking of good clouds, it pays to know a thing or two about cloud
types, and in particular the sequence of cloud events that occur as
frontal systems approach and depart.

In high pressure weather, the sky is typically clear blue (although this
is not always the case, there are such things as cloudy high pressure
systems that tend to occur in winter). When a frontal system approaches
the first warning sign is the appearance of cirrus, high level ice
clouds that appear as smooth wisps or layers. These are followed by
alto cumulus, similar to the low level clouds that we usually see, but
at medium altitude, so they appear much smaller and more tightly packed.
These are the best looking clouds IMO, and if they occur just at the
time of sunset or sunrise you can consider yourself very lucky indeed.

Here's an example of some alto-cumulus at Rhossili last September.
Unfortunately I wasn't in the best position to take photographic
advantage of them. At least I think they're alto-cumulous, they're much
more tighly packed than normal, usually they're more widely spaced and
cover a much larger area of sky.
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/misc/rhossili_sunrise.jpg

Without getting too deeply involved in this subject, I'll bring this to
a close with a brief comparison of sunrises vs. sunsets. The two are
usually very different because of meteorological changes during the
course of the day. These typically happen when winds are light, rather
than during the stronger winds when frontal systems blow across the
country.

During the night, clouds tend to dissipate. This means that most
sunrises are cloudless. It also means that sunrises are more common,
and thus more reliable than sunsets. There's also less haze and dust in
the air, so most sunrises are very clear and not so red.

Throughout the day, clouds tend to build up, pollution is pumped into
the atmosphere by cars and factories, so by the end of the day there may
be a lot of clouds and haze around. Often there's so much of it that it
kills the sunset, but if not, it can result in the most spectacular
sunsets. Thus most sunsets tend to involve clouds. Cloudless sunsets
are much rarer.

So if you want to predict them, sunrises are your best bet, since they
are more reliable. Sunsets are more of a lottery because of all the
clouds around, but can result in far more spectacular sights if the
clouds are in just the right place and the sun's rays are unobstructed,
but this is by definition a more localised affair, so sunsets are far
less predictable.

If you are really keen, then go out every time there's a chance there
might be a good sunrise or set. You'll have a lot of disappointments,
but you'll also see a lot of great sunsets and sunrises. It's
dedication, that's all. You won't be lucky every time, but you'll win
the sunset lottery a lot more often than the money one.

Finally, here's one I prepared earlier. A sunrise taken at Mumbles this
morning, one of my "classic" viewpoints. It started off very hazy and
wimpy, but improved once the sun got above the clouds. Not a "fire in
the sky" type shot, but I'm quite happy with it considering the very
poor start.
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/misc/mumbles_sunrise.jpg

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Dewi said:

Go on then, tell him...

Give his some pointers...

I think we are all relying on you now.

Done. Just took me a little while to write and prepare a couple of
photos.

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Okay then, here it is, a beginner's guide to sunsets and sunrises.

Haven't read it yet but I'm sure it's well researched/observed and
interesting stuff. Thank-you.

I noticed that Message-ID: <[email hidden]> from Paul
Saunders contained the following:

Quoted message said:

Excellent clouds there. That's one of the most important elements of a
good sunset, but frustratingly rare to have really interesting ones.

Quoted message said:

Maybe could have taken more time and got better compositions

The cloud patterns are great in the first shot, but there's nothing of
any real interest in the foreground to set them off.

Yeah I was standing in a huge field full of sheep. With a border collie
on a lead. Lucky to get anything at all. :-)

Quoted message said:

I think your second shot is the best, a very nice composition with
reflections in the lake. Reflections in water are a classic technique
to use during a sunset. I once used a muddy puddle on a building site,
but you'd never guess because the rest of the foreground is black.

It was actually a pond. Yes I agree, whatever you can find for
foreground interest.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

but I
had a very dark wood to get through before I could get back to the
car...

I've noticed that too. It has an annoying habit of getting very dark
right after a sunset. A torch is thus a very useful addition to your
photo kit.

You can tell I'm new at this can't you?
--
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

On Mon, 6 Sep 2004 23:49:30 +0100, "Paul Saunders"
<[email hidden]> uttered:

Quoted message said:

Dewi said:

Go on then, tell him...

Give his some pointers...

I think we are all relying on you now.

Done. Just took me a little while to write and prepare a couple of
photos.

Paul

I have read it, thanks.

--
Dewi,

(remove spin for email)

Geoff Berrow wrote

Quoted message said:

It was one of the best I've seen over Bakewell on Saturday.

Darn! Missed a good one there. Unfortunately we were in Long Eaton
on Saturday and didn't get back to the Peaks until dark. We can see
all the way to Cat and Fiddle from just up from our house so the
sunsets are usually pretty good. Sorry I missed that one.

Chris

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Chris Townsend said:

The key is who owns the physical tools (camera, film, memory card) and
who owns the artistic product of using those tools.

As I understand it, from a business point of view, if someone pays you
to do a photographic job and they provide the film and other expenses
for you, then they own the film and thus the copyright, even though you
took the photos.

The alternative is to pay for the film yourself. Thus you retain your
own copyright. You'd then you'd sell the results to the buyer.

Basically it's the difference between being employed by someone to do a
job for them, or working as a freelance at your own expense. The
problem with the latter case is that if they don't like the photos they
don't have to buy them.

Paul

Quite a few freelancers and others working on commissions will charge
the cost of film to the picture buyer along with other expenses. So
in effect, the photographer didn't pay for the film, the customer did.
The photographer retains the copyright though.

Generally, copyright law is in favour of the creator, regardless of
who's equipment was used to create the copyrighted image - as an
analogy for example, if van Gogh used his neighbour's brushes, paints,
and canvas to produce his 'Sunflowers', that doesn't mean the painting
is his neighbours' work. An exception is when the photographer
creates the work within the scope of his or her employment - however,
this isn't black and white, if you'll pardon the pun. In my day job I
am often required to take photos for my employer for my employers
purposes. I use my employers digital camera and my employers CF card
and I take photos of my employers property. However, I am not an
official photographer for my employer - they just know that I enjoy
taking photos (it isn't part of my job description or part of my
official duties). In these circumstances I own the copyright, despite
the fact that all I did was press the shutter. Virtually everything
else was done or provided by my employer, if you see what I mean. If
I was employed specifically as a photographer then they'd own the
copyright, even if I used my own equipment. I'm simplifying here
because I haven't got time to go into too much detail.

Alternatively, if I agreed in writing beforehand that my employer
owned the copyright in all images I produced, then obviously they'd
own the copyright.

But to get back on topic, I know of no way of predicting good sunsets.
Of the three images I linked to earlier, two were of a relatively
cloudless sky, whereas one had a lot of cloud. They were taken from
the same location on three consecutive evenings, yet one is purple,
one is a deep orange, and one is a golden brown. On each day the
weather during the day had been very similar - generally still, warm,
sunny days. It seems quite unpredictable to me. The only way to
catch the sunsets is to be there and hope for the best. You'll have
to witness a lot of dull sunsets, but you'll also witness some
stunners.

Michael S

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andrew said:

Quoted message said:

Is it possible to tell in advance when good sunsets or sunrises are
going to occur?

Generally when you don't have a camera with you.

By a very strange coincidence I always seem to have my camera with me
whenever I see a good sunrise/set. :-)

Methinks you have a camera with you at *every* sunset.... ;-)

Nick

In message <[email hidden]>, Michael S
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Chris Townsend said:

The key is who owns the physical tools (camera, film, memory card) and
who owns the artistic product of using those tools.

As I understand it, from a business point of view, if someone pays you
to do a photographic job and they provide the film and other expenses
for you, then they own the film and thus the copyright, even though you
took the photos.

The alternative is to pay for the film yourself. Thus you retain your
own copyright. You'd then you'd sell the results to the buyer.

Basically it's the difference between being employed by someone to do a
job for them, or working as a freelance at your own expense. The
problem with the latter case is that if they don't like the photos they
don't have to buy them.

Paul

Quite a few freelancers and others working on commissions will charge
the cost of film to the picture buyer along with other expenses. So
in effect, the photographer didn't pay for the film, the customer did.
The photographer retains the copyright though.

Known as "expenses". I've done that. It's different to the buyer
providing the film though.

Quoted message said:

Generally, copyright law is in favour of the creator, regardless of
who's equipment was used to create the copyrighted image - as an
analogy for example, if van Gogh used his neighbour's brushes, paints,
and canvas to produce his 'Sunflowers', that doesn't mean the painting
is his neighbours' work.

Going back to the original query the example would be someone borrowing
van Gogh's equipment to paint a picture of van Gogh exactly as van Gogh
wanted it. That is, the photographer hands his camera to a companion and
requests them to take a photograph of the photographer from a certain
position and using camera settings determined by the photographer. The
companion has actually taken the photograph but the photographer has set
it up and created it.

A good example of this can be seen on page 39 of Galen Rowell's Mountain
Light. Rowell explains how he set up his camera, left it with a
companion, climbed a rock pinnacle then directed his companion on how to
take the picture by watching his (Rowell's) shadow.

Quoted message said:

An exception is when the photographer
creates the work within the scope of his or her employment - however,
this isn't black and white, if you'll pardon the pun.

It not being black and white is the potential problem.

Quoted message said:

In my day job I
am often required to take photos for my employer for my employers
purposes. I use my employers digital camera and my employers CF card
and I take photos of my employers property. However, I am not an
official photographer for my employer - they just know that I enjoy
taking photos (it isn't part of my job description or part of my
official duties). In these circumstances I own the copyright, despite
the fact that all I did was press the shutter. Virtually everything
else was done or provided by my employer, if you see what I mean. If
I was employed specifically as a photographer then they'd own the
copyright, even if I used my own equipment. I'm simplifying here
because I haven't got time to go into too much detail.

Alternatively, if I agreed in writing beforehand that my employer
owned the copyright in all images I produced, then obviously they'd
own the copyright.

Agreements in writing can be important.

Quoted message said:

But to get back on topic, I know of no way of predicting good sunsets.
Of the three images I linked to earlier, two were of a relatively
cloudless sky, whereas one had a lot of cloud. They were taken from
the same location on three consecutive evenings, yet one is purple,
one is a deep orange, and one is a golden brown. On each day the
weather during the day had been very similar - generally still, warm,
sunny days. It seems quite unpredictable to me. The only way to
catch the sunsets is to be there and hope for the best. You'll have
to witness a lot of dull sunsets, but you'll also witness some
stunners.

Watching the weather and the forecast can help. Sometimes it becomes
clear during the afternoon that a good sunset is likely and that it's
worth finding a good spot to photograph it.

Michael S said:

But to get back on topic, I know of no way of predicting good sunsets.

As I said, there are some elements which can be predicted, but others
which can't. So sunsets are partially predictable, but there's no way
of knowing for sure what they are going to look like, except in one
particular case.

The most important element which is predictable is whether or not the
sky is clear beyond the horizon (to the east for sunrises, to the west
for sunsets) and to predict that you really need to look at a synoptic
chart to check for high pressure to the east or west of Britain. You
can't tell this by looking at a normal weather forecast, nor from
looking at the sky.

The other reasonably predictable element is cloud cover.

If it's a clear sunny day, then there most likely be a sunrise and set
(unless there's a bank of cloud on or beyond the horizon - i.e. a
frontal system that's just passed in the case of a sunrise, or a frontal
system moving in in the case of a sunset). This type of weather gives
rise to a cloudless sunrise/set. These are the most predictable, not
merely that they will happen but also what they will look like.

If the sky is totally overcast then there's not likely to be a sunrise
or set (unless the cloud cover doesn't extend completely to the horizon
and the sky is clear beyond). Overcast weather tends to occur between
warm and cold fronts so there's usually no chance of a sunrise/set in
those conditions.

If the weather forecast shows sun/cloud, then the potential exists for a
cloudy sunrise/set. These are the most variable and hard to predict.
Depending on exactly where the clouds are at the critical moment you
could have a stunner or it could die the grey death.

In the last case, an understanding of cloud types and how they relate to
frontal systems can be very useful. There's a particular sequence of
cloud types that occur as frontal systems approach and pass. If you
know exactly where the frontal systems and high pressure areas are at
the time of sunrise/set (synoptic charts again) then you can make a
reasonably good prediction about the chances of a sunrise/set, although
again, you can never be sure exactly what it will look like.

For a dramatic cloudy sunset the ideal conditions are just as a cold
front passes overhead with high pressure following on behind (to the
west). In other words, immediately after rain (cold front not warm
front). So if the weather forecast predicts rain in afternoon, clearing
in the evening to a clear night with a sunny day following, that's a
indication of a potentially good sunset. Probably followed by a naff
sunrise.

For a dramatic cloudy sunrise the ideal conditions are just as a warm
front approaches from the west after clear sunshine the day before. In
this case the forecast needs to predict a clear night, clouding over in
the morning with rain later. In this case the preceding sunset will
probably be rubbish.

My advice is to read up on cloud types, frontal systems and the cloud
sequences associated with those frontal systems. I learnt more about
landscape photography from studying weather books than from photographic
books!

I'd recommend getting hold of the following books if they're still
available;

Mountain Weather by David Pedgley.
Cicerone Press. ISBN 0902 363 22 0

Instant Weather Forecasting by Alan Watts.
Adlard Coles Limited. ISBN 0 229 11724 4

The latter is filled with cloud photos (not very good ones, but still)
and gives lots of information relating to each cloud type and the kind
of weather you can expect to follow. I have another excellent little
cloud handbook (small enough to carry everywhere) but I can't find it at
the moment so I can't give details. There may be other newer books of
the same type - photos of different cloud types and explanations of
each. Very useful for photographers and walkers alike.

Quoted message said:

Of the three images I linked to earlier, two were of a relatively
cloudless sky, whereas one had a lot of cloud. They were taken from
the same location on three consecutive evenings, yet one is purple,
one is a deep orange, and one is a golden brown. On each day the
weather during the day had been very similar - generally still, warm,
sunny days. It seems quite unpredictable to me.

If those were taken in the order you showed them, then it looks to me as
if the first one (purple clouds) was taken after a cold front had
passed, the second (clear orange) was taken during high pressure (clear
sky to the west) and the third (golden brown) shows cirrus and thus
indicates that a warm front was moving in. This is a typical weather
cycle in the UK.

It's worth noting that not all frontal systems are the same. Most
frontal systems bring rain, but some can be very weak and no rain will
fall. In the case of your purple sunset, the clouds look typical of the
shower clouds that occur after a cold front has passed, but if it was a
weak front then there may not have been any showers. In the distance
you can see a yellow clear slot beneath the high bank of cirrus,
indicating the approach of high pressure.

Of course, it's easy to analyse photographs after the event and explain
retrospectively why they were predictable, that's the nature of
hindsight. But it is possible to learn from past photographs and that
can help you to predict similar situations in the future.

If you could get hold of synoptic charts for the days you took those
photographs, they may help to confirm (or not) what I've just said about
them. Anyone know of a good source of UK synoptic charts stretching
back the last 20 years or so?

Oh by the way, was that purple colour real, or was there a colour shift
in the film?

You say that each of these sunsets are quite different, and of course
the photographs are, but each was no doubt taken at a different time
relative to the sun setting. The look of a sunset can change enormously
as it develops, which is why I categorise different types. In the case
of your third "golden brown" shot, the sun hasn't actually set yet, so
it's a "pre-sunset" shot.

Prior to the sun setting the light gets yellower, then more orange, then
quite red (or deep pink) at the moment of sunset. Clouds then continue
to get redder as the sun drops further, whilst the sky gets a
progressively deeper blue. There can also be a purple colour which I've
noticed a few times, but I'm not sure what causes this. Often I've seen
the clear night sky turn from black to a deep purple before turning
blue. This usually happens about an hour before sunrise.

In the case of the Mumbles sunrise I shot yesterday, it started off with
very weak pink colours due to bank of hazy low cloud to the east, but it
improved once the sun broke over the top of the clouds, resulting in the
golden "post-sunrise" shot below, very similar to your "golden brown"
shot.
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/misc/mumbles_sunrise.jpg

Quoted message said:

The only way to
catch the sunsets is to be there and hope for the best. You'll have
to witness a lot of dull sunsets, but you'll also witness some
stunners.

Absolutely. But it's not the only way. Some sunsets are predictable.

I didn't predict this Worms Head sunset. Well I expected a sunset
because it was a clear sunny day, but I didn't know how it was going to
develop after the sun set, and I had no idea that my digital camera
would record an image that looked like this;
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/misc/worm.jpg

But learning from that sunset, I was able to predict this one, exactly
the same type of clear sky with high pressure to the west that caused
the Worms Head sunset. Before I went out I used an astronomy program to
check the angle of the sun at sunset and one hour after, then used a
compass on a map to choose an appropriate subject and viewpoint. I also
checked my tide tables to determine where the tide would be, high tide
as it happened, which helped me to decide to use these rocks as a
foreground (usually there'd be a lot of beach behind them). As I say,
these kind of cloudless sunsets are quite easy to predict, but you get
the best shots around an hour after sunset.
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/october/october23.html

One more prediction. If you want to photograph some fantastic sunrises
this autumn, the weather to look out for is high pressure just to the
west of Britain, resulting in gentle northerly winds (less than 10mph)
and the possibility of fog (temperature inversion). These kind of
weather conditions are quite common in October, but could happen in
September too, so watch those forecasts closely.

What the forecaster will say is that it will be a cold night with the
likelihood of frost, and the risk of widespread fog in the morning.
This fog will be described as a risk to motorists on their way to work.
What they won't say is that up in the mountains above the fog the
weather will be spectacular, and you'll get a fantastic sunrise above a
sea of fog. So you'll need to find yourself a good high viewpoint up in
the hills, with a clear view to the east, preferably overlooking a
valley that may fill with fog. Naturally it will be best to wild camp
there. Llyn y Fan Fawr is a superb location for this, I've photographed
many great sunrises there over the years;
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/pg/md/lyfffs75.jpg

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk

Michael S said:

But to get back on topic, I know of no way of predicting good sunsets.

As I said, there are some elements which can be predicted, but others
which can't. So sunsets are partially predictable, but there's no way
of knowing for sure what they are going to look like, except in one
particular case.

The most important element which is predictable is whether or not the
sky is clear beyond the horizon (to the east for sunrises, to the west
for sunsets) and to predict that you really need to look at a synoptic
chart to check for high pressure to the east or west of Britain. You
can't tell this by looking at a normal weather forecast, nor from
looking at the sky.

The other reasonably predictable element is cloud cover.

If it's a clear sunny day, then there most likely be a sunrise and set
(unless there's a bank of cloud on or beyond the horizon - i.e. a
frontal system that's just passed in the case of a sunrise, or a frontal
system moving in in the case of a sunset). This type of weather gives
rise to a cloudless sunrise/set. These are the most predictable, not
merely that they will happen but also what they will look like.

If the sky is totally overcast then there's not likely to be a sunrise
or set (unless the cloud cover doesn't extend completely to the horizon
and the sky is clear beyond). Overcast weather tends to occur between
warm and cold fronts so there's usually no chance of a sunrise/set in
those conditions.

If the weather forecast shows sun/cloud, then the potential exists for a
cloudy sunrise/set. These are the most variable and hard to predict.
Depending on exactly where the clouds are at the critical moment you
could have a stunner or it could die the grey death.

In the last case, an understanding of cloud types and how they relate to
frontal systems can be very useful. There's a particular sequence of
cloud types that occur as frontal systems approach and pass. If you
know exactly where the frontal systems and high pressure areas are at
the time of sunrise/set (synoptic charts again) then you can make a
reasonably good prediction about the chances of a sunrise/set, although
again, you can never be sure exactly what it will look like.

For a dramatic cloudy sunset the ideal conditions are just as a cold
front passes overhead with high pressure following on behind (to the
west). In other words, immediately after rain (cold front not warm
front). So if the weather forecast predicts rain in afternoon, clearing
in the evening to a clear night with a sunny day following, that's a
indication of a potentially good sunset. Probably followed by a naff
sunrise.

For a dramatic cloudy sunrise the ideal conditions are just as a warm
front approaches from the west after clear sunshine the day before. In
this case the forecast needs to predict a clear night, clouding over in
the morning with rain later. In this case the preceding sunset will
probably be rubbish.

My advice is to read up on cloud types, frontal systems and the cloud
sequences associated with those frontal systems. I learnt more about
landscape photography from studying weather books than from photographic
books!

I'd recommend getting hold of the following books if they're still
available;

Mountain Weather by David Pedgley.
Cicerone Press. ISBN 0902 363 22 0

Instant Weather Forecasting by Alan Watts.
Adlard Coles Limited. ISBN 0 229 11724 4

The latter is filled with cloud photos (not very good ones, but still)
and gives lots of information relating to each cloud type and the kind
of weather you can expect to follow. I have another excellent little
cloud handbook (small enough to carry everywhere) but I can't find it at
the moment so I can't give details. There may be other newer books of
the same type - photos of different cloud types and explanations of
each. Very useful for photographers and walkers alike.

Quoted message said:

Of the three images I linked to earlier, two were of a relatively
cloudless sky, whereas one had a lot of cloud. They were taken from
the same location on three consecutive evenings, yet one is purple,
one is a deep orange, and one is a golden brown. On each day the
weather during the day had been very similar - generally still, warm,
sunny days. It seems quite unpredictable to me.

If those were taken in the order you showed them, then it looks to me as
if the first one (purple clouds) was taken after a cold front had
passed, the second (clear orange) was taken during high pressure (clear
sky to the west) and the third (golden brown) shows cirrus and thus
indicates that a warm front was moving in. This is a typical weather
cycle in the UK.

It's worth noting that not all frontal systems are the same. Most
frontal systems bring rain, but some can be very weak and no rain will
fall. In the case of your purple sunset, the clouds look typical of the
shower clouds that occur after a cold front has passed, but if it was a
weak front then there may not have been any showers. In the distance
you can see a yellow clear slot beneath the high bank of cirrus,
indicating the approach of high pressure.

Of course, it's easy to analyse photographs after the event and explain
retrospectively why they were predictable, that's the nature of
hindsight. But it is possible to learn from past photographs and that
can help you to predict similar situations in the future.

If you could get hold of synoptic charts for the days you took those
photographs, they may help to confirm (or not) what I've just said about
them. Anyone know of a good source of UK synoptic charts stretching
back the last 20 years or so?

Oh by the way, was that purple colour real, or was there a colour shift
in the film?

You say that each of these sunsets are quite different, and of course
the photographs are, but each was no doubt taken at a different time
relative to the sun setting. The look of a sunset can change enormously
as it develops, which is why I categorise different types. In the case
of your third "golden brown" shot, the sun hasn't actually set yet, so
it's a "pre-sunset" shot.

Prior to the sun setting the light gets yellower, then more orange, then
quite red (or deep pink) at the moment of sunset. Clouds then continue
to get redder as the sun drops further, whilst the sky gets a
progressively deeper blue. There can also be a purple colour which I've
noticed a few times, but I'm not sure what causes this. Often I've seen
the clear night sky turn from black to a deep purple before turning
blue. This usually happens about an hour before sunrise.

In the case of the Mumbles sunrise I shot yesterday, it started off with
very weak pink colours due to bank of hazy low cloud to the east, but it
improved once the sun broke over the top of the clouds, resulting in the
golden "post-sunrise" shot below, very similar to your "golden brown"
shot.
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/misc/mumbles_sunrise.jpg

Quoted message said:

The only way to
catch the sunsets is to be there and hope for the best. You'll have
to witness a lot of dull sunsets, but you'll also witness some
stunners.

Absolutely. But it's not the only way. Some sunsets are predictable.

I didn't predict this Worms Head sunset. Well I expected a sunset
because it was a clear sunny day, but I didn't know how it was going to
develop after the sun set, and I had no idea that my digital camera
would record an image that looked like this;
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/misc/worm.jpg

But learning from that sunset, I was able to predict this one, exactly
the same type of clear sky with high pressure to the west that caused
the Worms Head sunset. Before I went out I used an astronomy program to
check the angle of the sun at sunset and one hour after, then used a
compass on a map to choose an appropriate subject and viewpoint. I also
checked my tide tables to determine where the tide would be, high tide
as it happened, which helped me to decide to use these rocks as a
foreground (usually there'd be a lot of beach behind them). As I say,
these kind of cloudless sunsets are quite easy to predict, but you get
the best shots around an hour after sunset.
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk/october/october23.html

One more prediction. If you want to photograph some fantastic sunrises
this autumn, the weather to look out for is high pressure just to the
west of Britain, resulting in gentle northerly winds (less than 10mph)
and the possibility of fog (temperature inversion). These kind of
weather conditions are quite common in October, but could happen in
September too, so watch those forecasts closely.

What the forecaster will say is that it will be a cold night with the
likelihood of frost, and the risk of widespread fog in the morning.
This fog will be described as a risk to motorists on their way to work.
What they won't say is that up in the mountains above the fog the
weather will be spectacular, and you'll get a fantastic sunrise above a
sea of fog. So you'll need to find yourself a good high viewpoint up in
the hills, with a clear view to the east, preferably overlooking a
valley that may fill with fog. Naturally it will be best to wild camp
there. Llyn y Fan Fawr is a superb location for this, I've photographed
many great sunrises there over the years;
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk/pg/md/lyfffs75.jpg

Paul
--
http://www.wilderness-wales.co.uk
http://www.wildwales.fsnet.co.uk