Sunflower Seeds Vegan?

"Wohali" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Do you consider sunflower seeds vegan?

I have a dilemma with them because of the extreme measures use to protect

the

Quoted message said:

crops. Ironically, most of the seeds grown in the US are sold for

birdseed, but

Quoted message said:

an incredible number of birds are killed & injured each year in "pest

control

Quoted message said:

management" to protect the crops.

What do you think?

bad stuff is associated with everything even water-my vote-vegan

Quoted message said:

--
Wohali "Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something together, are companions." --
C.S. Lewis

"Wohali" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Do you consider sunflower seeds vegan?

I have a dilemma with them because of the extreme measures use to protect

the

Quoted message said:

crops. Ironically, most of the seeds grown in the US are sold for

birdseed, but

Quoted message said:

an incredible number of birds are killed & injured each year in "pest

control

Quoted message said:

management" to protect the crops.

What do you think?

======================
I think you'd better check all your food first if you thing you're a vegan. Sunflower seeds are the
least of your worries as far as animal death and suffering go.

Quoted message said:

--
Wohali "Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something together, are companions." --
C.S. Lewis

Hi Wohali,

I think this is a personal call that you have to make for yourself. I do the same thing, all the
time. For instance, I refuse to buy bananas, a nice vegan food, right? Because of the inhumane
conditions applied to the communities surrounding the plantations and the workers themselves, I
won't consider bananas to be an ethical food to eat until the growing practices become more ethical.
As to your dillemna about sunflower seeds, I commend you for looking at the bigger picture of how
your products are grown and taking that into account. I truly wish that more people did.

-Jay

"Unlike you, I have no problem spanking men." -Angel

"Wohali" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Do you consider sunflower seeds vegan?

I have a dilemma with them because of the extreme measures use to protect

the

Quoted message said:

crops. Ironically, most of the seeds grown in the US are sold for

birdseed, but

Quoted message said:

an incredible number of birds are killed & injured each year in "pest

control

Quoted message said:

management" to protect the crops.

What do you think?
--
Wohali "Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something together, are companions." --
C.S. Lewis

Talk about your thread drift. :-P

Thanks for the feedback. And for the info on bananas! Something to watch out for.

Happy Thanksgiving Canada & US. We're still talking about how to spends ours.
--
Wohali
"Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something
together, are companions." --C.S. Lewis

rick etter said:

I think you'd better check all your food first if you thing you're a vegan.

I do. And I know it's impossible to avoid animal products.

Quoted message said:

Sunflower seeds are the least of your worries as far as animal death and suffering go.

I'm not talking about a few birds injured to keep them out of the crops. It's legal & acceptable to
net them, shoot them, and by any means necessary "manage" them to protect the sunflower crops -
including poisoning. This is wide-spread & not isolated to just a few farms.
--
Wohali
"Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something
together, are companions." --C.S. Lewis

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Jay of Shaw Residential

Internet said:

I think this is a personal call that you have to make for yourself. I do the same thing, all
the time. For instance, I refuse to buy bananas, a nice vegan food, right? Because of the
inhumane conditions applied to the communities surrounding the plantations and the workers
themselves, I won't consider bananas to be an ethical food to eat until the growing practices
become more ethical.

How about the Max Havelaar(sp?) bananas, or Fair Trade bananas?
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18 ICQ# 251532856 Unreferenced footnotes: nut.house.cxcgiOpen ↗
bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN "Hummm.... 86 percent male. Which probably explains why I only have fun 14
percent of the time...." Therion Ware (a.a.)

Jay said:

I think this is a personal call that you have to make for yourself. I do the same thing, all the
time. For instance, I refuse to buy bananas, a nice vegan food, right?

Very nice food, period.

Quoted message said:

Because of the inhumane conditions applied to the communities surrounding the plantations and the
workers themselves,

What inhumane conditions are these? Have you ever visited a banana plantation in person or do you
get your information from petty activists who turn everything into an ethical dilemma?

I can say that I *have* visited a banana plantation, and within the last couple of weeks. I also
rode past many more on vacation. What I found was nothing like you describe. The workers were joyful
and well-fed. They also seemed grateful to have honest work. Their income was actually higher than
what's available for semi- and un-skilled work in more urban areas. Maybe the propaganda you've read
didn't give comparative pay within the same nation(s); such insight would defeat the purposes of the
activists.

Quoted message said:

I won't consider bananas to be an ethical food to eat until the growing practices become more
ethical.

What's unethical about bananas or any other food, or growing practices? What does your withdrawl
from the free market mean for banana plantation workers? Does it mean better conditions or worse?
Does it mean they make more or less money to raise their families?

Living conditions in the regions where bananas are grown commercially are probably substandard to
Western tastes. That goes for every aspect of third world life -- not just banana plantations. Are
you still drinking coffee, eating chocolate, or consuming sugar in ANY form? Those foods, too,
affect quality of life issues in the same regions where bananas are grown.

Quoted message said:

As to your dillemna about sunflower seeds, I commend you for looking at the bigger picture of how
your products are grown and taking that into account.

It's a futile exercise to withdraw from the market and expect it to change. If you're concerned
about the welfare of banana workers, eat MORE bananas, not less, or find bananas raised in
conditions that appeal to your hypersensitivities. Your sense of morality is only leading to worse
working and economic conditions for banana workers. How do you feel about that?

Quoted message said:

I truly wish that more people did.

What you are doing is not an act of conscience or principle, but one of ignorance of economics. What
economic, moral, or noble purpose would mass deprivation serve? (Answer: none.)

"Wohali" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rick etter said:

I think you'd better check all your food first if you thing you're a

vegan.

Quoted message said:

I do. And I know it's impossible to avoid animal products.

=====================
Then why try? The substitution you make can, and some times does, cause more animal death than if
you just ate meat instead. How many deaths go into 100lbs of tofu meat substitute? How many go into
100lbs of grass fed beef, or game?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sunflower seeds are the least of your worries as far as animal death and suffering go.

I'm not talking about a few birds injured to keep them out of the crops.

It's

Quoted message said:

legal & acceptable to net them, shoot them, and by any means necessary

"manage"

Quoted message said:

them to protect the sunflower crops - including poisoning. This is

wide-spread

Quoted message said:

& not isolated to just a few farms.

==================
LOL And it's not isolated to sunflowers either. everything you eat has those deaths, and more,
involved. they die by the millions and millions in all your crops just to keep your food clean,
cheap, and convenient. They also die by the millions and millions to provide for your usenet
entertainment too. But I don't see you stopping that unecessary killing.

Quoted message said:

--
Wohali "Those who are enjoying something, or suffering something together, are companions." --
C.S. Lewis

"MEow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan said:

I think this is a personal call that you have to make for yourself. I do

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

same thing, all the time. For instance, I refuse to buy bananas, a nice vegan food, right?
Because of the inhumane conditions applied to the communities surrounding the plantations and the
workers themselves, I

won't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

consider bananas to be an ethical food to eat until the growing practices become more ethical.

How about the Max Havelaar(sp?) bananas, or Fair Trade bananas?

I have no idea what the conditions are for producing fair trade bananas. I've never seen them in my
grocery store, either, though. Might be worth looking into. If you find anything, be sure to post it
here. I do love bananas =)

By the way, I have no way of verifying my sources since I've never been to a banana plantation, but
everything I've heard suggests that the way they 'control pests' is by spraying pesticides over the
crop workers and crops alike - pesticides which then get into the local water table. That can't be
safe. Also, much like any crop product, the pay for workers is dismal and local economies are so
completely dependant on crop production that to remove the product would surely cause much poverty
and even worse conditions. I don't know which is better. Kind of a sucky situation.

I'm sure some companies are working to change conditions but I honestly don't know which ones, nor
have I done any research into the subject lately. Unlike the fair trade movement with coffee and the
like, bananas are not nearly as often talked about amongst people looking to consume ethically.
Thought it might be worth mentioning here.

-Jay

"Unlike you, I have no problem spanking men." -Angel

Quoted message said:

How about the Max Havelaar(sp?) bananas, or Fair Trade bananas?

newdream.orgbetterbanana.htmlOpen ↗

Just looked into it, looks like Chiquita is now certified. Good for them.

Check out the site above for a list of fair trade banana distributors.

-Jay

"Unlike you, I have problem spanking men." -Angel

usual suspect said:

Jay said:

I think this is a personal call that you have to make for yourself. I do the same thing, all the
time. For instance, I refuse to buy bananas, a nice vegan food, right?

Very nice food, period.

Quoted message said:

Because of the inhumane conditions applied to the communities surrounding the plantations and
the workers themselves,

What inhumane conditions are these? Have you ever visited a banana plantation in person or do you
get your information from petty activists who turn everything into an ethical dilemma?

I can say that I *have* visited a banana plantation, and within the last couple of weeks. I also
rode past many more on vacation. What I found was nothing like you describe. The workers were
joyful and well-fed.

Swing Low Sweet Chariot comin' for to carry me home... It's not just about the workers, that's bad
enough. It's about the environment.

members.tripod.comBanPlantsCA.htmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

It's a futile exercise to withdraw from the market and expect it to change. If you're concerned
about the welfare of banana workers, eat MORE bananas, not less, or find bananas raised in
conditions that appeal to your hypersensitivities.

I haven't found them yet in my area, so I haven't bought them. When I do, I will. I said that in my
original post. And I don't think eating more bananas helps any more than blind boycotting. It merely
serves to preserve the status quo.

Gradually, corporations are bringing their standards up and that's what's helping lower rung workers
as a result of plain old social evolution, which admittedly goes along with capitalism and commerce
etc. Discussion, knowledge and education is what's making the real changes. And we're doing an eeny
weeny bit of that right here.

-Jay

--
Melissa: Where are you going?
Brendan: To the splendid, eternal unitement of the fairy princess and the
milady of flowers.
Melissa: That's weird! That's where I'm going! You can come with me on my
dragon. He's my best friend and I own him.
Brendan: Sounds like a complicated relationship.
-from Home Movies

Your sense of morality is only leading to

Quoted message said:

worse working and economic conditions for banana workers. How do you
feel about that?

Quoted message said:

I truly wish that more people did.

What you are doing is not an act of conscience or principle, but one of
ignorance of economics. What economic, moral, or noble purpose would
mass deprivation serve? (Answer: none.)

Jay said:

I have no idea what the conditions are for producing fair trade bananas.

You also have no idea about conditions for any other bananas.

Quoted message said:

I've never seen them in my grocery store, either, though. Might be worth looking into. If you find
anything, be sure to post it here. I do love bananas =)

The way to support banana workers is to eat their products, not to avoid them.

Quoted message said:

By the way, I have no way of verifying my sources since I've never been to a banana plantation,

Aha. Figures.

Quoted message said:

but everything I've heard

Is possibly [censored]? Yeah. It is.

Quoted message said:

suggests that the way they 'control pests' is by spraying pesticides over the crop workers and
crops alike - pesticides which then get into the local water table.

And Iraqi soldier are *still* tossing babies on bayonets.

Did you know organic food is also treated with pesticides? Some of the organic pesticides have
longer halflives than synthetic ones.

Quoted message said:

That can't be safe.

The question isn't about safety, but of truth. I walked and biked in the banana plantation. I was
never sprayed. I didn't even see a single airplane.

Quoted message said:

Also, much like any crop product, the pay for workers is dismal

The pay for ANY unskilled or semi-skilled labor is low regardless of locale. As noted in my previous
post, the pay for labor at the plantation I visited was higher than that of similarly skilled work
in the cities. Go figure, huh.

Quoted message said:

and local economies are so completely dependant on crop production

Not entirely true. Local economies in third world nations, which most banana producers are, are very
much tied to agriculture and products and services which don't require much sophistication in
training or infrastructure. This also includes mining, which is usually more deleterious to the
environment and may be deemed even harsher than crop work. The exportation of agriculture and mining
products from these nations is a major portion of their GDP.

The way to support those economies so they can grow and diversify is to buy the product(s) they
have, not to boycott them.

Quoted message said:

that to remove the product would surely cause much poverty and even worse conditions.

Such is the result of boycotts and withdrawls from the market, as you have chosen. How do you
sleep at night?

Quoted message said:

I don't know which is better. Kind of a sucky situation.

No, your conscience is guided by ignorance. I hope my replies help you so you can enjoy a food you
like AND help people you think you care about.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure some companies are working to change conditions but I honestly don't know which ones, nor
have I done any research into the subject lately.

So you smear the whole industry based on your lack of knowledge and hope others act on your
ignorance and false conscience?

Quoted message said:

Unlike the fair trade movement with coffee and the like, bananas are not nearly as often talked
about amongst people looking to consume ethically.

Most "ethical" consumption is based on faulty premises (like your ignorance of banana plantations)
and/or a poor understanding of economics (which you alluded to above; namely, that withdrawing from
the market only makes conditions worse for others rather than causing improvement). Either way,
"ethics" is never served; it's just lipservice and posturing. One is not moral by abstaining from
bananas, and one is not immoral by eating them.

Quoted message said:

Thought it might be worth mentioning here.

Thanks for muddying the water with your admission of ignorance. I'm sure you really helped others
with your lack of insight.

Quoted message said:

"Unlike you, I have no problem spanking men." -Angel

Where do you draw the line at compassion and ethics: eating bananas, spanking men?

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Jay of Shaw Residential

Internet said:

I have no idea what the conditions are for producing fair trade bananas. I've never seen them in my
grocery store, either, though. Might be worth looking into. If you find anything, be sure to post
it here. I do love bananas =)

By the way, I have no way of verifying my sources since I've never been to a banana plantation, but
everything I've heard suggests that the way they 'control pests' is by spraying pesticides over the
crop workers and crops alike - pesticides which then get into the local water table. That can't be
safe. Also, much like any crop product, the pay for workers is dismal and local economies are so
completely dependant on crop production that to remove the product would surely cause much poverty
and even worse conditions. I don't know which is better. Kind of a sucky situation.

I know. It's the problem when a country depends on just one product, like banana, because it's
almost the only thing other countries will buy from them. As far as the method of pest control goes,
I only have it from a documentary on the issue, but it seems that they do spread those chemicals by
plane with no consideration of who might be out an working at the plantation.

Quoted message said:

I'm sure some companies are working to change conditions but I honestly don't know which ones, nor
have I done any research into the subject lately. Unlike the fair trade movement with coffee and
the like, bananas are not nearly as often talked about amongst people looking to consume ethically.
Thought it might be worth mentioning here.

I don't know if Fair Trade do have bananas on the list, for sure. I do know that Max Havelaar(sp?)
is much similar to Fair Trade and they do have bananas.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18 ICQ# 251532856 Unreferenced footnotes: nut.house.cxcgiOpen ↗
bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN "Hummm.... 86 percent male. Which probably explains why I only have fun 14
percent of the time...." Therion Ware (a.a.)

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, Jay of Shaw Residential

Internet said:

newdream.orgbetterbanana.htmlOpen ↗

Just looked into it, looks like Chiquita is now certified. Good for them.

Check out the site above for a list of fair trade banana distributors.

Thanks.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18 ICQ# 251532856 Unreferenced footnotes: nut.house.cxcgiOpen ↗
bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN "Hummm.... 86 percent male. Which probably explains why I only have fun 14
percent of the time...." Therion Ware (a.a.)

frlcnt said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think this is a personal call that you have to make for yourself. I do the same thing, all the
time. For instance, I refuse to buy bananas, a nice vegan food, right?

Very nice food, period.

Quoted message said:

Because of the inhumane conditions applied to the communities surrounding the plantations and the
workers themselves,

What inhumane conditions are these? Have you ever visited a banana plantation in person or do you
get your information from petty activists who turn everything into an ethical dilemma?

I can say that I *have* visited a banana plantation, and within the last couple of weeks. I also
rode past many more on vacation. What I found was nothing like you describe. The workers were
joyful and well-fed.

Swing Low Sweet Chariot comin' for to carry me home... It's not just about the workers, that's
bad enough.

Ipse dixit.

Quoted message said:

It's about the environment.

Ipse dixit.

<snip of someone's bogus term paper: note many of the sources are activist publications

While frolicking around in alt.food.vegan, usual suspect of Road

Runner - Texas said:

Quoted message said:

"Unlike you, I have no problem spanking men." -Angel

Where do you draw the line at compassion and ethics: eating bananas, spanking men?

Obsessing about signatures again? Where did your sense of humour go? I remember you used
to have one.

Besides, she's only quoting someone else for saying it, not saying that it's her own opinion. As
with most other quotes in signatures, it's probably placed there because the person having the
signature thought it was funny. You seem to have big problems understanding usenet signatures and
the humour in them.
--
Nikitta a.a. #1759 Apatriot(No, not apricot)#18 ICQ# 251532856 Unreferenced footnotes: nut.house.cxcgiOpen ↗
bin/nemwiki.pl?ISFN "Hummm.... 86 percent male. Which probably explains why I only have fun 14
percent of the time...." Therion Ware (a.a.)

"usual suspect" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jay said:

I have no idea what the conditions are for producing fair trade bananas.

You also have no idea about conditions for any other bananas.

True. Never claimed that I did. I only mentioned what I'd heard (recognizing that my sources may be
unreliable.)

Quoted message said:

The way to support banana workers is to eat their products, not to avoid them.

In some ways, I agree with you. I don't put much stock in boycotts. If I knew without a doubt how
all of my food was produced, I'd have no problem picking and choosing who to buy from. Since I
don't, I have to wing it based on guesses and my own experience. Kind of like everyone else.

Quoted message said:

Did you know organic food is also treated with pesticides? Some of the organic pesticides have
longer halflives than synthetic ones.

Thank you, I did know that. And if you ask me (which you didn't) I think that agriculture is just as
big a problem on a global level as anything else. I get that.

Quoted message said:

The question isn't about safety, but of truth. I walked and biked in the banana plantation. I was
never sprayed. I didn't even see a single

airplane.

Quoted message said:

That may be true, it may not. I don't trust you as a source any more than anyone else. And just
because you weren't sprayed doesn't mean that they don't spray. And just because that plantation may
have had decent conditions does not mean that the bananas in my grocery store come from decent
plantations.

Quoted message said:

The pay for ANY unskilled or semi-skilled labor is low regardless of locale. As noted in my
previous post, the pay for labor at the plantation I visited was higher than that of similarly
skilled work in the cities. Go figure, huh.

Again, the conditions of one plantation are no guarantee of what's available to me.

Quoted message said:

Not entirely true. Local economies in third world nations, which most banana producers are, are
very much tied to agriculture and products and services which don't require much sophistication in
training or infrastructure. This also includes mining, which is usually more deleterious to the
environment and may be deemed even harsher than crop work. The exportation of agriculture and
mining products from these nations is a major portion of their GDP.

Absolutely.

Quoted message said:

The way to support those economies so they can grow and diversify is to buy the product(s) they
have, not to boycott them.

Of course. But buying from companies whose practices you support is different from buying
indiscriminantly. I don't always succeed in buying from companies I support all the time, but that's
life. For me, talking about growing practices and discussing them like we are here is much more
valuable than where a anonymous money goes. They both carry weight.

Quoted message said:

Such is the result of boycotts and withdrawls from the market, as you have chosen. How do you
sleep at night?

On a crappy bed purchased from a company I don't support. I know I'm a hypocrite. I'd rather be a
self-admitted hypocrite than someone who refuses to acknowledge their hypocrisy.

Quoted message said:

So you smear the whole industry based on your lack of knowledge and hope others act on your
ignorance and false conscience?

I'm not encouraging anyone else to act in any which way. Their decisions are their own.

Either way, "ethics" is never served; it's just lipservice

Quoted message said:

and posturing. One is not moral by abstaining from bananas, and one is not immoral by eating them.

Perhaps I did suggest that eating bananas was immoral. What I meant, is that to ME eating bananas is
immoral because I don't know enough about the situation to learn it inside out. And frankly, I'm too
poor and too lazy to fly to all the banana plantations and learn first hand about them.

-Jay

--
Melissa: Where are you going?
Brendan: To the splendid, eternal unitement of the fairy princess and the
milady of flowers.
Melissa: That's weird! That's where I'm going! You can come with me on my
dragon. He's my best friend and I own him.
Brendan: Sounds like a complicated relationship.
-from Home Movies

usual suspect said:

(snip)

Quoted message said:

<snip of someone's bogus term paper: note many of the sources are activist publications>

Do you have a set of counter facts?