Sunday Times: Death row: Britain's most dangerous road

[JBB]

"David Hansen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:56:31 +0100 someone who may be Tony Raven
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
> >Yes it is people driving inappropriately for the conditions but just as
> >you can have dangerous cycling facilities you can have dangerous road as
> >well. It all comes down to the design. If you have junctions with no
> >sight lines there is a much greater probability there will be a
> >collision than if visibility is good.
>
> This is not as great as the road "safety" lobby claims, due to risk
> compensation.
>
>
I do have a degree of sympathy however with someone booted up the back as
they wait to turn right. I'm sure the junction warning signs are in place
and drivers are not slowing enough but it doesn't help the victim much.
As an aside I did a one day advanced driving course with my previous
employer. Our instructor ( ex traffic police) said if we only took one thing
away from the course it was to keep the wheels aligned fore and aft when
waiting to turn right. If you pre-empt the manoeuvre and are hit from behind
you are catapulted into the path of one-coming traffic. better to be pushed
down the road than into a head-on.

Julia

 

[Juliette]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:34:37 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
> wrote in message <[email protected]>:
>
> >So its all your fault Guy. Everyone keeps going fast so they don't
> >infringe your patented technique.
>
> No, no, you've got it all wrong - they are driving as fast as humanly
> possible in the certain knowledge that this is the SafeSpeed for the
> road

SafeSpeed, pah. A few weeks ago I was overtaken by a milk truck
travelling at an inappropriately high speed on a blind bend.
Luckily for him an oncoming vehicle had slowed down for the bend
as was able to get into a hedge. The milk truck sped off and
thankfully the other driver and his car were OK. I wrote and
complained to the milk company and got a reply stating that
they'd checked the driver's tachograph and he had not been
exceeding the speed limit. Of course he wasn't, it's a twisty
country road and the limit is 60mph. He still overtook me on a
blind bend and he was going too fast to do otherwise when he came
around a blind bend at speed and saw me on the next blind bend. I
was going to write back and tell them that whether or not he was
exceeding the speed limit was irrelevant and then I decided that
I just couldn't be bothered. Certainly a driver who thinks that
one ought to tear down the dotted line.

Juliette
--

 

[Trevor Barton]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:11:01 +0100, JBB wrote:
> Our instructor ( ex traffic police) said if we only took one thing
> away from the course it was to keep the wheels aligned fore and aft when
> waiting to turn right. If you pre-empt the manoeuvre and are hit from behind
> you are catapulted into the path of one-coming traffic. better to be pushed
> down the road than into a head-on.

That's sounds sensible enough. There you go, not only did you take that
away from the course, but you've converted another person too.!

In New Zealand, when turning right off a road, you're supposed to pull
over to the left until you can see the road is clear in both directions
before pulling all the way across. I'm not sure the range of roads that
that applies too, but it certainly applies on NSL-style roads in the
countryside, and there is usually a little right-turn layby on the left
side. Makes good sense from a safety point of view, but I'm not sure
how practical it would be with the traffic densities on UK roads.

--
Trevor Barton

 

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:18:45 GMT someone who may be Juliette
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I wrote and
>complained to the milk company and got a reply stating that
>they'd checked the driver's tachograph and he had not been
>exceeding the speed limit. Of course he wasn't, it's a twisty
>country road and the limit is 60mph.

The speed limit for a lorry on such a road is 40mph.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:11:01 +0100 someone who may be "JBB"
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I do have a degree of sympathy however with someone booted up the back as
>they wait to turn right.

I have more than a degree of sympathy. I have complete sympathy.

>I'm sure the junction warning signs are in place
>and drivers are not slowing enough but it doesn't help the victim much.

The way to help the victim is by reducing danger at source. Sticking
plaster "improvements" to roads, as advocated by the road "safety"
lobby, are more to do with speeding up motorists than making the
roads safer.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

David Hansen <[email protected]> writes:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:18:45 GMT someone who may be Juliette
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
> >I wrote and
> >complained to the milk company and got a reply stating that
> >they'd checked the driver's tachograph and he had not been
> >exceeding the speed limit. Of course he wasn't, it's a twisty
> >country road and the limit is 60mph.
>
> The speed limit for a lorry on such a road is 40mph.
>
Yeah right. I'll believe that when I see it.

A

 

[Ambrose Nankivell]

David Hansen <[email protected]> writes:

> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:11:01 +0100 someone who may be "JBB"
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
> >I do have a degree of sympathy however with someone booted up the back as
> >they wait to turn right.
>
> I have more than a degree of sympathy. I have complete sympathy.
>
> >I'm sure the junction warning signs are in place
> >and drivers are not slowing enough but it doesn't help the victim much.
>
> The way to help the victim is by reducing danger at source. Sticking
> plaster "improvements" to roads, as advocated by the road "safety"
> lobby, are more to do with speeding up motorists than making the
> roads safer.

Of course, with a properly painted bay at every right hand turn, it
makes cutting the goolies off the offender easier to do as it would
be much easier to prove dangerous driving if someone had booted
someone up the rear crossing into a painted resserve.

A

 

[Juliette]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:18:45 GMT someone who may be Juliette
> <[email protected]> wrote this:-
>
> >I wrote and
> >complained to the milk company and got a reply stating that
> >they'd checked the driver's tachograph and he had not been
> >exceeding the speed limit. Of course he wasn't, it's a twisty
> >country road and the limit is 60mph.
>
> The speed limit for a lorry on such a road is 40mph.

Good job I didn't write back then. Even so, taking those bends
at 40mph is dangerous unless you're sure that there isn't going
to be a cyclist doing 10mph on one of them, he didn't have time
to slow down and tuck in behind me until we were past the twisty
bit.

Juliette
--

 

[David Hansen]

On 27 Sep 2004 12:44:55 +0100 someone who may be Ambrose Nankivell
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>> The speed limit for a lorry on such a road is 40mph.
>>
>Yeah right. I'll believe that when I see it.

See the Highway Code.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[Ian Smith]

On 27 Sep 2004 11:38:53 GMT, Trevor Barton <[email protected]> wrote:

> In New Zealand, when turning right off a road, you're supposed to pull
> over to the left until you can see the road is clear in both directions
> before pulling all the way across. I'm not sure the range of roads that
> that applies to

I've a recollection it's in teh countryside a car turning right gives
way to a car behind it (ie, you want to turn right, you pull over to
teh left and let teh thing behind you past), but in a town you don't.

regards, Ian SMith
--
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|o o|
|/ \|

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:00:41 GMT, Juliette <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>taking those bends
>at 40mph is dangerous unless you're sure that there isn't going
>to be a cyclist doing 10mph on one of them, he didn't have time
>to slow down and tuck in behind me until we were past the twisty
>bit.

You should really assume that there will be some **** on the wrong
side coming towards you.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 08:56:31 +0100, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>Yes it is people driving inappropriately for the conditions but just as
>you can have dangerous cycling facilities you can have dangerous road as
>well. It all comes down to the design. If you have junctions with no
>sight lines there is a much greater probability there will be a
>collision than if visibility is good.

Yes, up to a point. The point being when there is something done
about the problem and drivers respond by going faster, which is what
seems to happen in practice.

I favur a large sign saying "Oi! Knobhead! Slow down!"

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

 

[vernon levy]

> So you put up some signs saying something like "20 foot diameter holes in
road
> in several places, all obscured from view until 10 foot from hole". Let's
even
> assume that this particular statement is true i.e. that the holes exist.
How
> many drivers would actually reduce their speed to the level required to
avoid
> plunging into one of the holes?

You have totally missed the point. The current state of affairs is such
that the hazards are so varied and difficult to 'advertise' that a first
time user to the road is likely to have problems bearing in mind that I know
the road, have used it several times in each direction and still found
myself in situations that I'd rather not have been in - not all of them
being my fault. It is a scary road and has to be experienced before voicing
childish suggestions. Grow up or shut up.

Intemperately yours

Vernon in Leeds

 

[vernon levy]

> One thing that galls me, is the inference that it's the road that's
dangerous.
> It's the twats that aren't driving safely, driving to take into account
the
> type of road it is and the conditions on the road that make the danger,
not the
> asphalt width, number of bends etc.. Never blame the drivers... blame the
road
> :-(
The problem lies not so much with the regular users of the road, thankfully,
I am not one of them but with the occasional user or first time user. The
road is difficult to 'read' accurately and driver errors are exacerbated by
poor road design. It's too easy to blame reckless drivers but on this road
the layout of some junctions and peculiar lines taken by the road and some
lanes contribute considerably to drivers finding themselves in situations
they'd rather not be in.

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Clive George wrote:

> The article did say they ignored motorbike stats to get the A59.

I thought this NG was like Slashdot, where no-one ever, EVER, reads TFA ;-)

 

[Jon Farley]

I agree that it takes concentration and effort to drive safely along the
A59 Vernon as I too have driven along it a few times but I still think that
driver error is the main problem. Despite it being in beautiful scenery too
many drivers want to rush along it. A speed limit of 40 (or even 30 in
places) with plenty of speed cameras which are working and offenders
prosecuted would make it much safer. All that should be done along with
junction redesign where needed. That said there are parts where the
landscape is so vertical that to put a 'safe' road in (AKA a motorway) would
be very expensive and ruin the landscape. If you can't read the road - slow
down.

--

Jon Farley
-----------------------------
help the hungry
http://www.thehungersite.com/
"vernon levy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

> The problem lies not so much with the regular users of the road,
thankfully,
> I am not one of them but with the occasional user or first time user. The
> road is difficult to 'read' accurately and driver errors are exacerbated
by
> poor road design. It's too easy to blame reckless drivers but on this
road
> the layout of some junctions and peculiar lines taken by the road and some
> lanes contribute considerably to drivers finding themselves in situations
> they'd rather not be in.
>
>


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[dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers]

>The problem lies not so much with the regular users of the road, thankfully,
>I am not one of them but with the occasional user or first time user.

If the road in question in the ST article is anything like the roads round
here, it is often the regular users causing the problems. They get complacent.
The "have driven the road a thousand times and I've never had a problem"
thinking. On some of the roads round here I have dipped headlights on a lot of
the time, to give the **** coming round the bend in front an extra nanoseecond
to slow down, by seeing the lights, as otherwise they simply are not really
*looking* - and it's the regular drivers who are at fault, the same cars again
and again.

Cheers, helen s


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[vernon levy]

"dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> >The problem lies not so much with the regular users of the road,
thankfully,
> >I am not one of them but with the occasional user or first time user.
>
> If the road in question in the ST article is anything like the roads round
> here, it is often the regular users causing the problems. They get
complacent.
> The "have driven the road a thousand times and I've never had a problem"
> thinking. On some of the roads round here I have dipped headlights on a
lot of
> the time, to give the **** coming round the bend in front an extra
nanoseecond
> to slow down, by seeing the lights, as otherwise they simply are not
really
> *looking* - and it's the regular drivers who are at fault, the same cars
again
> and again.
>
I'll rephrase what I said. The regular users are less likely to be the
accident statistic and more likely to be the cause of accidents through
forcing occasional users into errors. As a motor cyclist, I really don't
believe that headlights on makes a blind bit of difference as I have had
innumerable SMIDSYs oer the past fifteen years and on three ocassions,
impacts despite best practice on my part. I can look back and laugh at a
couple of them especially the spotty little git who I forced to cough up
£400 (I've often wondered what sort of person has over £1000 on them at 21)
or soon the spot for damage cause by his careless driving knowing that:

A: he couldn't afford to have an insurance hike probably on his mother's
policy for his hot hatch
B: a police station was in the field of view
C: half the damage was caused by a hit and run from the previous month

And that:
A: I was double his body weight and incandescent with rage
B: I was more agitated after he suggested that I might like to fit second
hand parts to keep the cost down and I suggested that he fitted second hand
wings to replace the ones I was about to damage.

Vernon the part time barbarian
in Leeds. Can't believe I had a hot fiery temper fifteen years ago. The
kids I teach think I'm cuddly.

 

[Gawnsoft]

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 07:26:59 +0100, "vernon levy" wrote (more or
less):
....
> The regular users are less likely to be the
>accident statistic and more likely to be the cause of accidents through
>forcing occasional users into errors. As a motor cyclist, I really don't
>believe that headlights on makes a blind bit of difference as I have had
>innumerable SMIDSYs oer the past fifteen years and on three ocassions,
>impacts despite best practice on my part. I can look back and laugh at a
>couple of them ...

The Evening Standard had a 1/2 page article about SMIDSYs last Friday,
using the insurance industry abbreviation of 'looked but did not see'
(LBDNS), about their irrestitible rise in recent years.

I had ripped out the article to type in, but left it on the far side
of the country. And, of course, it's not an articlre I've been able
to find on their web-site. Ah well.


--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

 

[David E. Belcher]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> No idea, but I have driven the A59 a Several of times and lived to
> tell the tale.

I've actually *raced* on the A59 a couple of times (escaping unharmed
on both occasions), though thankfully it was only a couple of miles'
worth between the B6451 and B6161 junctions [1]. On the same course (a
19 mile hilly TT starting and finishing in Ripley), riders had to go
past the Menwith Hill base whilst on the B6451. My memory may be a
little clouded here, but I seem to recall an instruction in the race
route/start sheet advising competitors not to stop due to
mechanicals/punctures/loo breaks in the vicinity of the base if
possible as this may be frowned upon by the military police based at
Menwith. I may have my facts wrong here, though Arthur Clune might be
able to back me up or disprove as appropriate.

David E. Belcher

[1] Though actually, the B6161-A61 junction at Killinghall was
probably the riskiest bit of the course.