Summer training advice request

"Mike Strout" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My daughter is a highschool distance runner. She is very
committed

to

Quoted message said:

her training and wants to use her summer to move to the
next level

in

Quoted message said:

distance running. Being a sprinter myself, I'm not sure
the best

way

Quoted message said:

to advise her about how to meet her goals.

Here is where she is at right now... For the past school
year, she typically ran about 30-35 miles per week. During
her track season, where she runs the mile and 2 mile, she
improved her mile personal record from 6:10 to 5:57 and
her 2 mile PR from 13:37 to 13:12.

She has been running competitively now for about 18 months
and is ready to do some serious training this summer to
get her ready for fall. I don't think sheer mileage alone
is going to make that much

of

Quoted message said:

a difference as it hasn't seemed to this past
season. She is

reading

Quoted message said:

Daniel's running formula, but he doesn't seem to talk much
about strength training for distance runners.

My feeling seeing her run is that her endurance is
pretty good,

but

Quoted message said:

her strength or speed needs work. Can someone suggest
some ideas

about

Quoted message said:

a training program?

She really talk to her coach and see what he/she suggests
knowing her strengths and weaknesses. In my not so humble
opinion she should be working on base to include distance
with hills and stay the hell away from any speed. She needs
to get stronger to hold pace. Going into the fall cross
country season with a solid base would thrill any coach. At
that point you add some speed work and after a few weeks she
is purring while not peaking too early.

Books like Daniels's etc. Are too generic for High School
level runners and likely do more harm than good. I don't
know where she is concerning hormonal level but this is the
time where mother nature is doing a lot of molding. The best
freshman and Sophomore runners often fad equally fast once
breasts and hips and weight show up. You never see a HS
coach get excited about runner until they are seniors and
still running well.

Talk to her coach to lay out a summer plan.

-DougF

Mike Strout said:

Here is where she is at right now... For the past school
year, she typically ran about 30-35 miles per week. During
her track season, where she runs the mile and 2 mile, she
improved her mile personal record from 6:10 to 5:57 and
her 2 mile PR from 13:37 to 13:12.

She has been running competitively now for about 18 months
and is ready to do some serious training this summer to
get her ready for fall. I don't think sheer mileage alone
is going to make that much of a difference as it hasn't
seemed to this past season.

But she's improved, right ? Mega-milage may do more harm
than good, but consistent training over summer, even if
it's just maintaining a base and possibly some light speed
work towards the end of summer will pay off when heavy
training begins.

You don't gain a whole lot by pushing hard on speed work year-
round. Take a look at the approach Daniels takes to
periodisation -- for an athlete who is thinking in terms of
knocking off around 5 seconds per mile in a training season,
a well-considered buildup is a better approach than trying
to "redline" year-round.

Quoted message said:

She is reading Daniel's running formula, but he doesn't
seem to talk much about strength training for distance
runners.

Not all distance runners do general strength work -- many of
them just do specific training (hills, speed work).

One part of Daniels that is especially worth paying
attention to is the page (17 ? early in the book anyway)
where he enumerates important things to consider when
setting up a program. These are big-picture issues.

Going over such a checklist with a good coach and setting up
a program that addresses these big-picture considerations is
important.

Quoted message said:

My feeling seeing her run is that her endurance is pretty
good, but her strength or speed needs work.

What makes you think that ? Her 1 mile time looks OK
compared to her 2 mile time.

Quoted message said:

Can someone suggest some ideas about a training program?

The purpose of off-season training is to lay down a
foundation for on-season training. This foundation may start
with pure-base work, and include some speed work later on --
but the details depend on what sort of training she's going
to be doing in fall, what her fall racing schedule looks
like, and a number of individual factors that we can't
address on usenet. I second Doug's motion to have her talk
to a coach.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

first, I suggest she talk with her high school coach.

Since distance events are aerobic in nature, sheer
mileage is a good option for the summer. In addition to
reading Daniels I would suggest getting some books by
Arthur Lydiard.

The old timers once aimed for large volumes over the summer.
As the summer neared its end, they would add some
tempo/lactate threshold type runs. They would not ignore
speed during the summer, but very high intensity, anaerobic
efforts were a small part of training. You can maintain some
speed by running fartlek sessions and running strides.

"Mike Strout" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My daughter is a highschool distance runner. She is very
committed to her training and wants to use her summer to
move to the next level in distance running. Being a
sprinter myself, I'm not sure the best way to advise her
about how to meet her goals.

Here is where she is at right now... For the past school
year, she typically ran about 30-35 miles per week. During
her track season, where she runs the mile and 2 mile, she
improved her mile personal record from 6:10 to 5:57 and
her 2 mile PR from 13:37 to 13:12.

She has been running competitively now for about 18 months
and is ready to do some serious training this summer to
get her ready for fall. I don't think sheer mileage alone
is going to make that much of a difference as it hasn't
seemed to this past season. She is reading Daniel's
running formula, but he doesn't seem to talk much about
strength training for distance runners.

My feeling seeing her run is that her endurance is pretty
good, but her strength or speed needs work. Can someone
suggest some ideas about a training program?

Thanks, Mike <><

[email hidden] (Mike Strout) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

My feeling seeing her run is that her endurance is pretty
good, but her strength or speed needs work. Can someone
suggest some ideas about a training program besides the
constant beatings I give her? They just don't motivate
her like they used to.

Thanks, Mike <><

Mike, You are a sick [censored] that is forcing his daughter to
pursue your dreams. I have reported you to the child welfare
authorities. Maybe her new foster family will be more
understanding.

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Talk to her coach to lay out a summer plan.

Great advice.

Matthew

Doug Freese said:

Books like Daniels's etc. Are too generic for High School
level runners and likely do more harm than good.

Have you even read this book ? I'd argue that high school
athletes are one of the key target audiences for the book --
they are a demographic that the author is most familiar
with. However, the book is a supplement to coaching, not a
substitute for it.

One of the first things Daniels does is lay down a lengthy
checklist of things one must consider prior to drawing up a
program. These include things like the athletes strengths
and weaknesses, personal goals (this includes racing
commitments, and the nature of the racing season), time
available for training, the athletes personal likes and
dislikes, and a number of other important big-picture issues
that I can't remember off the top of my head (that's what
makes the careful enumeration of these factors important)

No book can answer these questions for the athlete.
Understanding how to address big-picture issues like these
is something one hopes a good coach can help with.

CHeers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Who is the high school coach in Illinois who has the
successful program? I cannot think of his name, but Joe
Newton sounds right. He wrote a good book for high school
runners. Another possibility is Training Young Distance
Runners by Russell Pate (and another fellow). For some
reason my IE will not open and I cannot call my ISP yet!
Damn, I cannot look up the book.

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mike Strout" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

My daughter is a highschool distance runner. She is very
committed

to

Quoted message said:

her training and wants to use her summer to move to the
next level

in

Quoted message said:

distance running. Being a sprinter myself, I'm not sure
the best

way

Quoted message said:

to advise her about how to meet her goals.

Here is where she is at right now... For the past school
year, she typically ran about 30-35 miles per week.
During her track season, where she runs the mile and 2
mile, she improved her mile personal record from 6:10 to
5:57 and her 2 mile PR from 13:37 to 13:12.

She has been running competitively now for about 18
months and is ready to do some serious training this
summer to get her ready for fall. I don't think sheer
mileage alone is going to make that much

of

Quoted message said:

a difference as it hasn't seemed to this past season.
She is

reading

Quoted message said:

Daniel's running formula, but he doesn't seem to talk
much about strength training for distance runners.

My feeling seeing her run is that her endurance is
pretty good,

but

Quoted message said:

her strength or speed needs work. Can someone suggest
some ideas

about

Quoted message said:

a training program?

She really talk to her coach and see what he/she suggests
knowing her strengths and weaknesses. In my not so humble
opinion she should be working on base to include distance
with hills and stay the hell away from any speed. She
needs to get stronger to hold pace. Going into the fall
cross country season with a solid base would thrill any
coach. At that point you add some speed work and after a
few weeks she is purring while not peaking too early.

Books like Daniels's etc. Are too generic for High School
level runners and likely do more harm than good. I don't
know where she is concerning hormonal level but this is
the time where mother nature is doing a lot of molding.
The best freshman and Sophomore runners often fad equally
fast once breasts and hips and weight show up. You never
see a HS coach get excited about runner until they are
seniors and still running well.

Talk to her coach to lay out a summer plan.

-DougF

I once coached a junior high cross country team to the
National Junior Olympics. We emphasized fun running. And
basics. Their environment had soft ground to run on and
lots of hills.

I also managed to hurt myself by trying to change my gait by
following a book, Explosive Running. So, I'm not a believer
in major changes of how you run except very slowly and
carefully.

With that in mind, here are my thoughts. Variety and fun
running. Try to find areas with a giving surface and avoid
running on hard unyielding surfaces. Distance running should
be the basis of cross country, but some short wind sprints
mixed in will increase speed. Basically, while she is
running, everyone once in a while run as fast as she can for
something like 10-20 seconds, then resume, catch her breath,
and run more.

It would be ideal to add some days of alternative exercises
to avoid injury. Elliptical training. Swimming. Body
building weight training. Whole body health.

Bob

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Mike Strout said:

Here is where she is at right now... For the past school
year, she typically ran about 30-35 miles per week. During
her track season, where she runs the mile and 2 mile, she
improved her mile personal record from 6:10 to 5:57 and
her 2 mile PR from 13:37 to 13:12.

She has been running competitively now for about 18 months
and is ready to do some serious training this summer to
get her ready for fall. I don't think sheer mileage alone
is going to make that much of a difference as it hasn't
seemed to this past season.

But she's improved, right ? Mega-milage may do more harm
than good, but consistent training over summer, even if
it's just maintaining a base and possibly some light speed
work towards the end of summer will pay off when heavy
training begins.

You don't gain a whole lot by pushing hard on speed work
year-round. Take a look at the approach Daniels takes to
periodisation -- for an athlete who is thinking in terms of
knocking off around 5 seconds per mile in a training
season, a well-considered buildup is a better approach than
trying to "redline" year-round.

Quoted message said:

She is reading Daniel's running formula, but he doesn't
seem to talk much about strength training for distance
runners.

Not all distance runners do general strength work -- many
of them just do specific training (hills, speed work).

One part of Daniels that is especially worth paying
attention to is the page (17 ? early in the book anyway)
where he enumerates important things to consider when
setting up a program. These are big-picture issues.

Going over such a checklist with a good coach and setting
up a program that addresses these big-picture
considerations is important.

Quoted message said:

My feeling seeing her run is that her endurance is pretty
good, but her strength or speed needs work.

What makes you think that ? Her 1 mile time looks OK
compared to her 2 mile time.

Quoted message said:

Can someone suggest some ideas about a training program?

The purpose of off-season training is to lay down a
foundation for on-season training. This foundation may
start with pure-base work, and include some speed work
later on -- but the details depend on what sort of training
she's going to be doing in fall, what her fall racing
schedule looks like, and a number of individual factors
that we can't address on usenet. I second Doug's motion to
have her talk to a coach.

Cheers,

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

Books like Daniels's etc. Are too generic for High
School level

runners and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

likely do more harm than good.

Have you even read this book ?

Of course not they just sit on my shelf to collect dust and
wait for running text book nerds to see my library when they
visit. There are times were you go from the snob to a
pompous ass.

Quoted message said:

I'd argue that high school athletes are one of the key
target audiences for the book -- they are a demographic

that the author

Quoted message said:

is most familiar with. However, the book is a
supplement to

coaching, not a

Quoted message said:

substitute for it.

All the books are fine but this person does not a book,
especially at her age. All those words will not do much to
help her find where she is in the big picture. The best
thing she needs is to sit down with her coach, who hopefully
understands training and tell her what SHE needs to do
during the summer to make her a better runner.

-DougF

Doug Freese said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

Books like Daniels's etc. Are too generic for High
School level runners and likely do more harm than good.

Have you even read this book ?

Of course not they just sit on my shelf to collect dust
and wait for running text book nerds to see my library
when they visit.

Then why would you advocate that others do not read them ?
Is it that only you are wise enough to be trusted with such
potent knowledge ?

Quoted message said:

There are times were you go from the snob to a
pompous ass.

When you start chanting slogans like "ignorance is
strength", you should expect me to disagree.

Quoted message said:

All the books are fine but this person does not a book,
especially at her age.

Books are useful. The thinking athlete is not satisfied
simply going through the motions of a training schedule,
they want to know the "whys". This is even more true if the
coach is using the book as a basis for a training program
for the students (many HS students get this book because
their coaches are using it, see amazon reviews).

Quoted message said:

All those words will not do much to help her find where
she is in the big picture.

You're fighting a straw-man, because I didn't suggest that
the book would be an adequate substitute for a coach. The
topic of contention is whether or not a book will "do more
harm than good". I believe this assertion to be false, you
believe it to be true apparently (though you are unable to
explain why a book will hurt)

Reading will help her understand why she's running in those
little circles, and why she's doing all that milage. It will
help her understand her training program. It won't answer
the "big-picture" questions for her, but then, I never
claimed that it would.

Quoted message said:

The best thing she needs is to sit down with her
coach, who

It's not an either-or proposition. You don't need to be a
drooling illiterate moron to make use of a coach. You can be
a drooling moron without a coach, or you can be articulate
and intelligent and yet have a coach.

Quoted message said:

hopefully understands training and tell her what SHE needs
to do during the summer to make her a better runner.

And hopefully has read Daniels and in particular, considers
all the items on that checklist on P17 or whatever it is.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

That is it. Thank you.
"Lyndon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Sam said:

Who is the high school coach in Illinois who has the
successful program?

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cannot think of his name, but Joe Newton sounds right. He
wrote a good

book

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for high school runners. Another possibility is Training
Young Distance Runners by Russell Pate (and another
fellow). For some reason my IE will not open and I cannot
call my ISP yet! Damn, I cannot look up the book.

Joe Newton is the coach at York High School. The book is
really a book

for

Quoted message said:

coaches, called "Coaching Cross Country Successfully." The
York program

is

Quoted message said:

well known for being high mileage, hard training. The
training schedule portion of the book STARTS with
20X400....then it gets hard.

Lyndon

Lyndon

"Speed Kills...It kills those that don't have it!" --US
Olympic Track

Coach

Quoted message said:

Brooks Johnson

Lyndon said:

The demographic that JD is most familiar with is college
(because that's where he actually coaches) but his book is
very popular with high school coaches (I use it, too)
because you can can put together a competitive xc squad
with moderate mileage (say 45). There is a consensus among
hs coaches, I think, that the workouts are somewhat
"dumbed down" for the RW crowd, so many will

How so ? I went through the middle distance program and it
seemed pretty tough. The "proportionality rules" make the
workouts pretty short though unless you're doing 50mpw and
up, in fact some of the programs appear to assume 50mpw+
(e.g. "2-3 sets of 800+400+2x200, not more than 4% of
weeks milage"😉

Do you mean that they do the "R" workouts faster than the
pace given in the vdot tables ? It's worth noting that
Daniels doesn't make a hard-and-fast rule for the pace to
use during "R" workouts -- the prescribed pace is a
general recommendation, but one might use a different pace
(or hill work) depending on the event. If I were training
for the mile, I'd do 400m and 200m reps slightly faster
than the "R" pace.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Thanks all for your great suggestions, except of course the
one from Anal Traveler.

I would like to put a few more facts out there to see what
some of you might say.

1. She is going into her senior year. She knows she isn't
the fastest thing out there, but if there were
scholarships out there for hard work and dedication, she
would certainly qualify. Any ideas here?

2. I personally think that there are some runners that are
just born to be great distance runners and no matter how
much my daughter trains, she won't be running 5:15 miles
any time soon. Is this a fair statement or am I off base?
I know that when I ran in school, my best friend was a
gifted runner. He hardly had to work at training and
could still run 4:40 miles.

3. Many of you talked about a goal of cutting 5 seconds per
mile. That assumes, in my opinion, that she has all but
maxed out her potential and now it is just fine tuning.
In light of the fact that she has really only been
training hard for about a year now, is it fair to assume
that she could see some more significant progress?

Mike <><

Mike Strout said:

Thanks all for your great suggestions, except of course
the one from Anal Traveler.

I would like to put a few more facts out there to see what
some of you might say.

1. She is going into her senior year. She knows she isn't
the fastest thing out there, but if there were
scholarships out there for hard work and dedication,
she would certainly qualify. Any ideas here?

Sorry, don't know.

Quoted message said:

2. I personally think that there are some runners that are
just born to be great distance runners and no matter
how much my daughter trains, she won't be running 5:15
miles any time soon. Is this a fair statement or am I
off base?

It's a fair statement. What's off base (or what seems off
base to me) is the idea that her endurance is fine while her
speed is lacking. Both the mile and two-mile times drop
substantially with endurance training. The first impulse
many people have is to improve times for short endurance
races (1 mile to 5k) by doing a lot of training at race pace
for those short races. Such a program is ill-advised. While
some speed work is helpful, these races are about endurance,
not who can sprint fastest.

Quoted message said:

3. Many of you talked about a goal of cutting 5 seconds
per mile. That assumes, in my opinion, that she has all
but maxed out her potential and now it is just fine
tuning.

This is an overly pessimistic interpretation of that
statement, so let me try to set things straight. It's not a
lifetime goal, it's a conservative expectation for a single
training season (with more improvements to follow in
subsequent seasons). It's possible that she may drop times
by a greater margin, but she may not. Either way, she's
nowhere near "maxed out her potential".

Keep at it and those 5 second per mile improvements add up
pretty quickly. Runners tend to reach a point of
*diminishing* returns fairly quickly, but not a point of
*no* returns (not for several years anyway). For example,
in 1947, Bannister was already a serious competitive
runner, well past beginner gains. All the same, he was far
from having "maxed out his potential" over the next 7
years, and he gradually "fine tuned" his mile time by a
margin of 25 seconds.

Quoted message said:

In light of the fact that she has really only been
training hard for about a year now, is it fair to assume
that she could see some more significant progress?

She almost certainly will see considerable progress, but how
that progress will come is hard to predict.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"Mike Strout" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thanks all for your great suggestions, except of
course the one

from

Quoted message said:

Anal Traveler.

We have a few nimrods - killfile or just ignore him.

Quoted message said:

I would like to put a few more facts out there to see
what some of

you

Quoted message said:

might say.

1. She is going into her senior year. She knows she
isn't the

fastest

Quoted message said:

thing out there, but if there were scholarships out there
for hard work and dedication, she would certainly qualify.
Any ideas here?

Hopefully the hard work and dedication is also applied to
the academic side.

Quoted message said:

2. I personally think that there are some runners that
are just

born

Quoted message said:

to be great distance runners and no matter how much my
daughter trains, she won't be running 5:15 miles any time
soon. Is this a

fair

Quoted message said:

statement or am I off base?

You can't overcome genetics. I you and the wife created a
lovely daughter with slow twitch muscles - she'll never be
fast. Have her spend the summer getting stronger and see how
far she can take her endurance running next year.

Quoted message said:

3. Many of you talked about a goal of cutting 5 seconds
per mile.

That

Quoted message said:

assumes, in my opinion, that she has all but maxed out her

potential

Quoted message said:

and now it is just fine tuning. In light of the fact that
she has really only been training hard for about a year
now, is it fair to assume that she could see some more
significant progress?

Since she is new at running I would ignore the 5 seconds. I
think she can do better than 5 but how much better is way
too hard to predict.. As we all know these are the years the
body matures. Is she also in a stage of growth?

Now the hard question for you. Is she really dedicated to
the sport or just trying to please her parent(s)?

-DougF