sugar vs no sugar in training

TB,

Above about 85% MHR, the body no longer can utilize fat as the sole source of energy. It starts use muscle glycogen and blood glucose. It is therefore important when operating at those exertion rates to refuel your muscles with sugar. Dextrose works best, fructose (fruit sugars) don't work as well (they are harded to get across your cell membranes). Even when I'm working below 85%, I still incoporate sugar into my refueling plan.

However, I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with getting sore afterwards....

Lonnie Utah said:

TB,

Above about 85% MHR, the body no longer can utilize fat as the sole source of energy. It starts use muscle glycogen and blood glucose. It is therefore important when operating at those exertion rates to refuel your muscles with sugar. Dextrose works best, fructose (fruit sugars) don't work as well (they are harded to get across your cell membranes). Even when I'm working below 85%, I still incoporate sugar into my refueling plan.

However, I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with getting sore afterwards....

It's my understanding that the body isn't using fat as a SOLE source at efforts less than 85% either (perhaps at some ridiculously low effort i.e. walking), albeit that the higher the effort, the less fat burning (as a percentage) takes place.

You're right. I ment to say "primary" source of energy....

L

Lonnie Utah said:

TB,

Above about 85% MHR, the body no longer can utilize fat as the sole source of energy. It starts use muscle glycogen and blood glucose. It is therefore important when operating at those exertion rates to refuel your muscles with sugar. Dextrose works best, fructose (fruit sugars) don't work as well (they are harded to get across your cell membranes). Even when I'm working below 85%, I still incoporate sugar into my refueling plan.

However, I don't think it has ANYTHING to do with getting sore afterwards....

thanks, but my question has to do with training-would i be in better shape if i didn't use sugar during training. would my metabolism ramp up in response to the additional "lack of sugar" stress during training, enabling me to actually hammer harder/longer when i did have sugar?

Can't say that I know which would be better, perhaps one of the coaches on here could shed some light on the subject. It's an interesting question.

I think in theory, that the harder you work in training, the more benefit you get from it. From that standpoint, seems you should use the sugar in training.

I understand your point about getting a boost from it when you're not used to it however, that idea may hold some merit.

the blur said:

thanks, but my question has to do with training-would i be in better shape if i didn't use sugar during training. would my metabolism ramp up in response to the additional "lack of sugar" stress during training, enabling me to actually hammer harder/longer when i did have sugar?

No. If you don't fuel yourself properly during training, you're not going to be prepared for racing. Remember...train like you race. If you don't take sugar on training rides, and then take some sugars on a race that just happen to upset your stomach, you're in trouble.

But you won't derive any benefits from depriving yourself of sugars during your training. You will only serve to decrease your performance/efforts during training, and will suffer slower recovery time.

Orange Fish said:

No. If you don't fuel yourself properly during training, you're not going to be prepared for racing. Remember...train like you race. If you don't take sugar on training rides, and then take some sugars on a race that just happen to upset your stomach, you're in trouble.

But you won't derive any benefits from depriving yourself of sugars during your training. You will only serve to decrease your performance/efforts during training, and will suffer slower recovery time.

According to the research that i have been doing over the last few weeks i have found information from [font=Arial]Recent studies that described the effect of consuming maltodextrins in sports drinks on endurance performance.[/font]
[font=Arial][/font]
[font=Arial] Research in texas showed that exercise time to exhaustion at a brisk walk (about 45% vo2max) was increased by 11% over that when plain water was ingested. C[/font][font=Arial]omparable improvements in run time to marathon-type pace (or slightly higher, 85% vo2max) have also been reported by several independant groups. One group from the philippines found that, when no water was permitted, the subjects where able to run for about 56minutes before becoming exhausted: with water they ran 78minutes. (this 40% improvement demonstrates the importance of taking fluid during exercise). When, however, when the subjects drank a maltodextrin solution the subjects where able to run 102minutes, an improvement of 30% over that of plain water alone. It should be noted, however, that no other studies have observed such marked improvements in performance.[/font]
[font=Arial]The potential value of drinks such as maltodextrin solutions in sporting activities (where it is the rate of work that is important rather than the ability to continue for longer) has yet to be established. However, in the absence of specific performance studies during competition, some insight into the potential benefits has been shown by another texas study. It was found that 12% more work could be performed on a cycle ergometer over a 2 hour period (particularily over the final 10 minutes of the trial) when the subject drank a maltodextrin solution, in comparison to that of plain water. The improved performance in each study where attributed to a greater supply of energy from the carbohydrates provided in the drink.[/font]

maybe this may help clear things up?

I quess I can see what The Blur is aiming at but I am afraid this mechanism, something like training with a handicap in order to be better at race, works better with other substances (oxygen being one of them... ) but not for sugar.
As far as I can remember from my reading about this question, you should rather train your ability to utilize sugar, to create its supply in blood(liver whatever...) as one of the important parts of your fitness.
One more thing I remember is that body is able to utilize protein (muscle) as its fuel in the extreme situation...
This may sound like a good news, at least our body is still somehow superior to the engine of a chevrolet since the car is not able to use its gearbox as a fuel and, to be honest, everyone has a muscle he can spare...:o
Its midnight here, goodby...

[font=Arial]

Chain said:

I quess I can see what The Blur is aiming at but I am afraid this mechanism, something like training with a handicap in order to be better at race, works better with other substances (oxygen being one of them... ) but not for sugar.[/font]
[font=Arial]As far as I can remember from my reading about this question, you should rather train your ability to utilize sugar, to create its supply in blood(liver whatever...) as one of the important parts of your fitness.[/font]
[font=Arial]One more thing I remember is that body is able to utilize protein (muscle) as its fuel in the extreme situation...[/font]
[font=Arial]This may sound like a good news, at least our body is still somehow superior to the engine of a chevrolet since the car is not able to use its gearbox as a fuel and, to be honest, everyone has a muscle he can spare...:o [/font]
[font=Arial]Its midnight here, goodby...

[/font]

[font=Arial]After recent investigations into this topic i found a little information into[/font]
[font=Arial]the limitations of using simple sugars as the carbohydrate source in these drinks is that the total amount of carbohydrates delivered to the body at such low concentrations is unlikely to make any significant contribution to energy provision during exercise. [/font]

[font=Arial]Recent studies have shown, however, that certain forms of carbohydrates may be delivered to the intestine faster than others some r[/font][font=Arial]ecent studies that have described the effect of consuming maltodextrins in sports drinks on endurance performance. Research in texas showed that exercise time to exhaustion at a brisk walk (about 45% vo2max) was increased by 11% over that when plain water was ingested.[/font]
[font=Arial]
comparable improvements in run time to marathon-type pace (or slightly higher, 85% vo2max) have also been reported by several independant groups. One group from the philippines found that, when no water was permitted, the subjects where able to run for about 56minutes before becoming exhausted: with water they 78minutes. (this 40% improvement demonstrates the importance of taking fluid during exercise). When, however, when the subjects drank a maltodextrin solution the subjects where able to run 102minutes, an improvement of 30% over that of plain water alone. It should be noted, however, that no other studies have observed such marked improvements in performance.

The potential value of drinks such as maltodextrin solutions in sporting activities (where it is the rate of work that is important rather than the ability to continue for longer) has yet to be established. However, in the absence of specific performance studies during competition, some insight into the potential benefits has been shown by another texas study. It was found that 12% more work could be performed on a cycle ergometer over a 2 hour period (particularily over the final 10 minutes of the trial) when the subject drank a maltodextrin solution, in comparison to that of plain water. The improved performance in each study where attributed to a greater supply of energy from the carbohydrates provided in the drink.

As for do you not use the sugar in training, Why on earth not if you keep the muscles refueled at all times then the recovery period is going to be shorter is not??? thats the way i try to look at it, would you run your car until empty then push it around for the next few days until its completly refueled, sorry but if you try to picture what it is i am trying to say then you will understand where i may be coming from.

Also i am led to believe that up unto 60%Mhr the body uses fat as the main contribution as fuel, then a mixture of carbohydrates and fat throughout steady state then onto a mixture of pyruvate and stuff. :o [/font]