Sturmey-Archer 8 Speed

meb said:

I saw the report of an 8 speed Sturmey-Archer overdrive hub displayed a=

t

Quoted message said:

Interbike.
=20
Any idea on price/availability date?
=20
Are they doing something significantly different to improve reliability=

Quoted message said:

over the 7 speeds?
=20
That monster 238% to 305% jump from 7-8 above the moderately close jumps from 1-7 seems out of
place. What=92s that for, pedaling down the mountain?

The jump from 1 to 2 is similarly large.

Quoted message said:

If it works reliably, I see a lot of potential for that overdrive on small wheeled folders and
recumbents.

Not so sure...this hub doesn't use a standard sprocket; it has an=20 oversized driver, only
sprockets available are 23 and 25 teeth. The=20 driver doesn't look like there's room for anything
much smaller than the =
23.

See: sheldonbrown.com30 sa 8speed r.html=Open ↗

and sheldonbrown.cominternal.htmlOpen ↗

Sheldon "So Far, I'm Inclined To Favor The Shimano 8-Speed" Brown
+------------------------------------------------------+
| If a man does not keep pace with his companions, | perhaps it is because he hears a different
| drummer. | Let him step to the music which he hears, | however measured or far away. -- Thoreau |
+------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Sheldon Brown said:

Not so sure...this hub doesn't use a standard sprocket; it has an oversized driver, only sprockets
available are 23 and 25 teeth. The driver doesn't look like there's room for anything much smaller
than the 23.

the literature says 20~25T
--
Marten

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

I saw the report of an 8 speed Sturmey-Archer overdrive hub displayed at Interbike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any idea on price/availability date?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are they doing something significantly different to improve reliability over the 7 speeds?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That monster 238% to 305% jump from 7-8 above the moderately close jumps from 1-7 seems out of
place. What?s that for, pedaling down the mountain?

Quoted message said:

The jump from 1 to 2 is similarly large.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If it works reliably, I see a lot of potential for that overdrive on small wheeled folders and
recumbents.

Quoted message said:

Not so sure...this hub doesn't use a standard sprocket; it has an oversized driver, only sprockets
available are 23 and 25 teeth. The driver doesn't look like there's room for anything much smaller
than the 23.

sheldonbrown.com30 sa 8speed r.htmlOpen ↗

Oops! What is that chain? That looks like good old 1/2x1/8 five-part chain with sleeves for the
pins. That will give better chain life as well as not angling across several sprockets. The
overdrive concept is a new one in planetary hubs. I'm curious to see the insides so I can understand
why they chose to have the lowest gear direct drive. That's why the sprocket is so large.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

The new Sturmey-ArCher 8-speed internal hub uses direCt drive for its lowest gear. Someone whose

attribution got snipped said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If it works reliably, I see a lot of potential for that overdrive on small wheeled folders and
recumbents.

I replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not so sure...this hub doesn't use a standard sprocket; it has an oversized driver, only sprockets
available are 23 and 25 teeth. The driver doesn't look like there's room for anything much smaller
than the 23.

sheldonbrown.com30 sa 8speed r.htmlOpen ↗

Jobst Brandt asked:

Quoted message said:

Oops! What is that chain? That looks like good old 1/2x1/8 five-part chain with sleeves for
the pins.

I dunno. Also dunno how you Can tell without taking it apart...?

Quoted message said:

The overdrive concept is a new one in planetary hubs.

ACtually, it isn't...all Shimano 4-speeds are also like this.

Quoted message said:

I'm curious to see the insides so I can understand why they chose to have the lowest gear direct
drive. That's why the sprocket is so large.

Yes, obviously, but that means it's not as ideal for small-wheel bikes as the other poster surmised.

Sheldon "Can't Type A Lower-Case 'C' SinCe Upgrading To OSX Panther" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
| "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a |
| thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that |
| cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be |
| impossible to get at or repair." - Douglas Adams, RIP - HHGTTG |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton,
Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

j

Quoted message said:

sheldonbrown.com30 sa 8speed r.htmlOpen ↗

Oops! What is that chain? That looks like good old 1/2x1/8 five-part chain with sleeves for the
pins. That will give better chain life as

OK, i'll bite: what are the five parts? i see 2x sideplates, pins & rollers, total 6 per link(?).

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Sheldon Brown said:

Quoted message said:

I saw the report of an 8 speed Sturmey-Archer overdrive hub displayed at Interbike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any idea on price/availability date?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are they doing something significantly different to improve reliability over the 7 speeds?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That monster 238% to 305% jump from 7-8 above the moderately close jumps from 1-7 seems out of
place. What?s that for, pedaling down the mountain?

Quoted message said:

The jump from 1 to 2 is similarly large.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If it works reliably, I see a lot of potential for that overdrive on small wheeled folders and
recumbents.

Quoted message said:

Not so sure...this hub doesn't use a standard sprocket; it has an oversized driver, only
sprockets available are 23 and 25 teeth. The driver doesn't look like there's room for anything
much smaller than the 23.

sheldonbrown.com30 sa 8speed r.htmlOpen ↗

Oops! What is that chain? That looks like good old 1/2x1/8 five-part chain with sleeves for
the pins. That will give better chain life as well as not angling across several sprockets.
The overdrive concept is a new one in planetary hubs. I'm curious to see the insides so I
can understand why they chose to have the lowest gear direct drive. That's why the sprocket
is so large.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Dear Jobst, Sheldon, and B.C.,

Below is a post that I found by searching for "jobst sleeve chain" that may explain why Jobst thinks
it's a 5-part chain despite the guts being hidden from the eyes of people like me.

Jobst will probably answer, but the link in this older post might be helpful. I suspect that the
clue has something to do with upset versus pressed collars obvious to Jobst.

Sorry about no simple link or address, but I'm having a devil of a time with my newsgroup server.

Carl Fogel

Tim McNamara said:

Is there some sort of resource to see the differences between these chain designs? I can't figure
out what you're talking about and seeing an exploded drawing would help.

Not an exploded drawing but one that shows the parts:

diamondchain.co.ukdiamondchain.co.ukOpen ↗

The left end of the chain shows that the inner side plate has a tubular sleeve pressed into it.
Chain rollers run on these sleeves Between the side plates to form a link. Links are connected into
a chain by outer plates with pressed in pins that run inside the sleeves.

In contrast, an upset collar 4-part chain has no sleeve and replaces it with an an upset collar on
the inner plate, two opposing plates leaving a gap in the center, under the roller and around the
link pin. The reduced contact area and the direct path for contamination into the link pin is its
weakness. It is wear of the pins and upset collars that lengthens chain pitch.

Some motorcycle chains even have an O-ring seal at the end of the sleeves to prevent contamination
and lubricant loss. The 4-part bicycle chain ignores these problems while the 5-part chains did this
far better.

There's more on this on page 3 of this series of pictures, giving nomenclature and details.

diamondchain.comDC cycle chain.pdfOpen ↗

Click on the right-arrow At the bottom of the picture to get to page 3.

Jobst Brandt <[email hidden]> Palo Alto CA

[email hidden] wrote:

-snip eight speed hub discussion-

Quoted message said:

sheldonbrown.com30 sa 8speed r.htmlOpen ↗

Oops! What is that chain? That looks like good old 1/2x1/8 five-part chain with sleeves for the
pins. That will give better chain life as well as not angling across several sprockets.

-snip-

Just wondering- How can you tell from that photo that it's a true roller chain and not a modern
punched-lips-on-sideplates model?

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sheldonbrown.com30 sa 8speed r.htmlOpen ↗

Oops! What is that chain? That looks like good old 1/2x1/8 five-part chain with sleeves for the
pins. That will give better chain life as

B.C. Cletta wrote:> OK, i'll bite: what are the five parts?

Quoted message said:

i see 2x sideplates, pins & rollers, total 6 per link(?).

Once, chain was five-part: rivet sideplate sleeve connecting the two sideplates other
sideplate roller

Now (since the Sedisport chain) the sideplates are punched with a lip to support the edge of the
roller so there is a gap at the center. (four parts) That's why chains wear so poorly now.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

In message <[email hidden]>, Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

meb said:

If it works reliably, I see a lot of potential for that overdrive on small wheeled folders and
recumbents.

Not so sure...this hub doesn't use a standard sprocket; it has an oversized driver, only sprockets
available are 23 and 25 teeth. The driver doesn't look like there's room for anything much smaller
than the 23.

When this came up on the Moulton list a few weeks ago I think the sizes of sprocket discussed were
23, 25 and 27. Using your calculator:

A 27 sprocket and a 53 chainwheel gives a 33 to 100 inch range with an AM wheel or about 31 to 95
inch for 349mm wheels and 355mm. So quite a sensible range is available with a normal road
chainwheel for the smaller wheeled Moultons, and for Brompton and Birdy folders.

For more speedy use a 23 sprocket and 53 chainwheel gives a 37 to 113 inch range with the smallest
of these wheels and is closer to the overdrive idea I suppose.

I can't see the sprocket size and overall range as much of a limitation for the smallest useful
wheels anyway but that first jump of 28% might take some getting used to.

Good Las Vegas photos, (bar one anyway).

I read that the SA 8 was attached to a stand in London so at least it's gone in the right direction
in the last few weeks.

Martyn

Martyn Aldis, e-mail Shave first and validate [email hidden]

Martyn Aldis said:

I can't see the sprocket size and overall range as much of a limitation for the smallest useful
wheels anyway but that first jump of 28% might take some getting used to.

If you're used to the venerable wide ratio 3speed, you're already used to that jump. Well, an even
bigger one actually.

Jasper

A Muzi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

-snip eight speed hub discussion-

Quoted message said:

sheldonbrown.com30 sa 8speed r.htmlOpen ↗

Oops! What is that chain? That looks like good old 1/2x1/8 five-part chain with sleeves for the
pins. That will give better chain life as well as not angling across several sprockets.

-snip-

Just wondering- How can you tell from that photo that it's a true roller chain and not a modern
punched-lips-on-sideplates model?

Dear Andrew,

I keep going back to that chain picture and wondering why Jobst asked the question. If guys like you
and Sheldon are puzzled, maybe Jobst just goofed, but I keep thinking that, right or wrong, he must
have seen something to provoke his comment.

Do the heads of the pins stick out more than usual?

On the uppermost links, they seem to be throwing more of a shadow than I expect from bike chains. I
haven't a clue if this matters, but it's bugging me.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oops! What is that chain? That looks like good old 1/2x1/8 five-part chain with sleeves for the
pins. That will give better chain life as well as not angling across several sprockets.

What is the big deal about this chain? It is still probably the most used bicyclechain in the world.

Quoted message said:

The overdrive concept is a new one in planetary hubs.

Nexus 4: SG4 1.00 1.22 1.50 1.84

--
Marten

Andrew Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Oops! What is that chain? That looks like good old 1/2x1/8 five-part chain with sleeves for the
pins. That will give better chain life as well as not angling across several sprockets.

Quoted message said:

Just wondering- How can you tell from that photo that it's a true roller chain and not a modern
punched-lips-on-sideplates model?

That it is a 1/8 wide chain is apparent from the proportions. I am not aware of any upset collar 1/8
chains, there being no demand for them. Besides, the chain looks so strikingly "out of the past"
that I am fairly sure it is a 5-part chain. There must be someone here that has seen that chain
separated. Speak up!

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Now (since the Sedisport chain) the sideplates are punched with a lip to support the edge of the
roller so there is a gap at the center. (four parts) That's why chains wear so poorly now.

in the design the issue or the cog sweep? i've used 3/32 Sedis on my poorly mantained FG commuter
& got acceptable life from it. i'm now using a KMC 410(? same design) and am getting good service
from it, same crappy maintence schedule. also, isn't this an evil tradeoff -the chain flexible to
sweep cogs at the expense of service life. i remember the v1.0 ultra-6 chains being [censored] and the
big improvement in both shifting & life w/ the Sedis.

"Ad nocendum potentes sumus". - Seneca

Quoted message said:

That it is a 1/8 wide chain is apparent from the proportions. I am not aware of any upset collar
1/8 chains, there being no demand for them.

All of SRAM's current 1/8" chain models are bushingless, and most of those from KMC in this width
are, too. Miche makes also offers a bushingless 1/8" chain in its track ensemble.
-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida Now in our twenty-first year. Our catalog of track
equipment: eighth year online. businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Ad nocendum potentes sumus". - Seneca

Quoted message said:

That it is a 1/8 wide chain is apparent from the proportions. I am not aware of any upset collar
1/8 chains, there being no demand for them.

All of SRAM's current 1/8" chain models are bushingless, and most of those from KMC in this width
are, too. Miche makes also offers a bushingless 1/8" chain in its track ensemble.

[snip]

Dear John,

Years ago, I was startled by the sight of an elderly couple in an ancient car with Nebraska license
plates whose bumper sticker showed a black bat in a red circle with a slash through it and the
legend "Abajo con los vampiros."

I've never been able to find out why they were so concerned about the threat of vampire bats
in Mexico.

But you're handy, so I'm hoping that you can clear up my confusion--it's a nice Latin tag from a
not-so-nice Roman author, but why are you announcing that we have the power to harm at the beginning
of your post about chain types?

Ignoramus est,

Carl Fogel

(Carl Fogel) said:

John Dacey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Ad nocendum potentes sumus". - Seneca

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All of SRAM's current 1/8" chain models are bushingless, and most of those from KMC in this width
are, too. Miche also offers a bushingless 1/8" chain in its track ensemble.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Dear John,

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But you're handy, so I'm hoping that you can clear up my confusion--it's a nice Latin tag from a
not-so-nice Roman author,

He never did anything unkind to me.

Quoted message said:

but why are you announcing that we have the power to harm at the beginning of your post about
chain types?

It was a minor chiding of the poster (whom many rbt readers think speaks infallibly on all techincal
issues) who said he didn't know of any bushingless 1/8" chains. Even with JB's exculpatory "I'm not
aware.." qualifier, there's the potential for "harm" from erroneous statements of fact from the
posters with the greatest influence on the group.

Quoted message said:

Ignoramus est, Carl Fogel

There's no reason for name-calling. I think I know that one - it's the way Latin handles comparative
adjectives: dumb, dumber, dumbest in translation becomes ignoramus, ignoramus -er, ignoramus -est.
-------------------------------
John Dacey Business Cycles, Miami, Florida Now in our twenty-first year. Our catalog of track
equipment: eighth year online. businesscycles.combusinesscycles.comOpen ↗

John Dacey <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Carl Fogel) said:

John Dacey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Ad nocendum potentes sumus". - Seneca

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All of SRAM's current 1/8" chain models are bushingless, and most of those from KMC in this
width are, too. Miche also offers a bushingless 1/8" chain in its track ensemble.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Dear John,

<snip>

Quoted message said:

But you're handy, so I'm hoping that you can clear up my confusion--it's a nice Latin tag from a
not-so-nice Roman author,

He never did anything unkind to me.

Quoted message said:

but why are you announcing that we have the power to harm at the beginning of your post about
chain types?

It was a minor chiding of the poster (whom many rbt readers think speaks infallibly on all
techincal issues) who said he didn't know of any bushingless 1/8" chains. Even with JB's
exculpatory "I'm not aware.." qualifier, there's the potential for "harm" from erroneous
statements of fact from the posters with the greatest influence on the group.

Quoted message said:

Ignoramus est, Carl Fogel

There's no reason for name-calling. I think I know that one - it's the way Latin handles
comparative adjectives: dumb, dumber, dumbest in translation becomes ignoramus, ignoramus -er,
ignoramus -est.
-------------------------------
John Dacey

Dear John,

Alas, we may have missed each other's meaning. I missed yours with the Latin tag, but now you've
explained the point that you meant to make, so I'm happy and able to follow you.

As for Seneca, everyone that he was unkind to is long dead. His tragedies are interesting, but his
apparent change of heart in service to a tyrant has not aroused great admiration.

I fear that you may have missed my self-deprecation. I meant only I am ignorant (probably bad
Latin), as in:

Ignorantly yours,

Carl Fogel

Carl Fogel <[email hidden]> wrote:
: I meant only I am ignorant (probably bad Latin), as in:

watch yourself.

tinyurl.comsrpsOpen ↗
--
david reuteler [email hidden]