Stupid Question: NEGATIVES?

"ToneJohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ok this might sounds stupid. But can someone describe in detial what
specifically are "negatives" and how they're performed? Also if you
have opinions on the success of them is appreciated.

Pulling your chin up to the bar is the positive portion of the movement;
lowering yourself back to hanging is the negative. People often perform
the negative portion of certain movements because they cannot yet
perform the positive. The negative portion of a movement has also been
shown to be more beneficial than the positive for increasing muscle
size, and again this can help with achieving a previously unachievable
movement or weight. Performing a controlled negative of a weight you
can already lift is a way to get more "mileage" out of your training,
e.g., lowering a military press under slow control rather than just
bring it back to the starting position quickly can achieve more training
effect in less time, a good thing if you're pressed for time. 🙂

Does that answer your question?

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

Yes thank you... I'm actually working on a HST type routine and after my 5
set 2 week session they say to perform a week of negatives, so i was just
trying to determien what and if i should do.

Thanks! !

"Steve Freides" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"ToneJohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ok this might sounds stupid. But can someone describe in detial what
specifically are "negatives" and how they're performed? Also if you have
opinions on the success of them is appreciated.

Pulling your chin up to the bar is the positive portion of the movement;
lowering yourself back to hanging is the negative. People often perform
the negative portion of certain movements because they cannot yet perform
the positive. The negative portion of a movement has also been shown to
be more beneficial than the positive for increasing muscle size, and again
this can help with achieving a previously unachievable movement or weight.
Performing a controlled negative of a weight you can already lift is a way
to get more "mileage" out of your training, e.g., lowering a military
press under slow control rather than just bring it back to the starting
position quickly can achieve more training effect in less time, a good
thing if you're pressed for time. 🙂

Does that answer your question?

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com

What does it do for the muscle that "positives" don't do? Is there an
advantage?

LM

Lee Michaels said:

"ToneJohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

specifically are "negatives" and how they're
performed?

snip

Quoted message said:

The "lowering" of the weight.

snip

Quoted message said:

The hardest part to doing negatives is finding
some way (or someone) to lift the weight into
position to lower the weight.

What about using negatives at the end of a hard set in order to
increase the intensity of that set? Say you've completed as many strict
reps on db benches as you can. You cheat up a few reps while lowering
them as strictly as possible. Or you finish a rep and realize that
you're not going to be able to complete an additional rep. Lowering
that last rep as slooooowly as possible is a negative, right? And there
was no problem in finding a way to lift the dbs into the top position,
was there?

Same with any exercise. Of course that's not a full set of negatives,
but is that the way negatives are intended to be performed? I first
heard of negatives in Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty booklet, but I forget
how he advised they be done.

--
Curt
http://curtjames.com/

"Curt James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Lee Michaels said:

"ToneJohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

specifically are "negatives" and how they're
performed?

snip

Quoted message said:

The "lowering" of the weight.

snip

Quoted message said:

The hardest part to doing negatives is finding
some way (or someone) to lift the weight into
position to lower the weight.

What about using negatives at the end of a hard set in order to
increase the intensity of that set? Say you've completed as many strict
reps on db benches as you can. You cheat up a few reps while lowering
them as strictly as possible. Or you finish a rep and realize that
you're not going to be able to complete an additional rep. Lowering
that last rep as slooooowly as possible is a negative, right? And there
was no problem in finding a way to lift the dbs into the top position,
was there?

Same with any exercise. Of course that's not a full set of negatives,
but is that the way negatives are intended to be performed? I first
heard of negatives in Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty booklet, but I forget
how he advised they be done.

You can come up with all kinds of ways to yank and jerk the weight into
position to get some more "intensity". Doesn't make it a good idea.

There is no equipment designed for this sort of thing. Many years ago, I had
some T-bar handles welded up to help lift the weights into position for
negatives. I also rigged up an industrial pulley system in a power rack. It
literally took either two or four people to do the negatives safely. And
they all had to be there for every workout too.

Don't get me wrong. I think that some negatives can be quite beneficial now
and then. But the more and more you advance in your training, the less
beneficial they would be. And it is just too complicated and dangerous to
do a complete eccentric only workout.

Exceptions exist FOR CERTAIN MOVEMENTS. Nobody does a complete negative
workout. Not without some specialized support equipment or a group of
willing slaves.

Larisa said:

What does it do for the muscle that "positives" don't do?

Extreemly stresses them. Useful for maximum strength
training, but in small doses (otherwise it'll quickly
lead to overtraining).

---
Signature has been removed to save disk space.

Larisa said:

What does it do for the muscle that "positives" don't do? Is there an
advantage?

Eccentric training is best at increasing eccentric strength.
Concentric training is best at increasing concentric strength.
Eccentric training may be slightly better than concentric training for
increasing hypertrophy.

Higbie EJ, Cureton KJ, Warren GL 3rd, Prior BM. Effects of concentric
and eccentric training on muscle strength, cross-sectional area, and
neural activation. J Appl Physiol. 1996 Nov;81(5):2173-81.

--

JMW
http://www.rustyiron.net

JMW said:

Larisa said:

What does it do for the muscle that "positives" don't do? Is there
an advantage?

Eccentric training is best at increasing eccentric strength.
Concentric training is best at increasing concentric strength.
Eccentric training may be slightly better than concentric training for
increasing hypertrophy.

Higbie EJ, Cureton KJ, Warren GL 3rd, Prior BM. Effects of concentric
and eccentric training on muscle strength, cross-sectional area, and
neural activation. J Appl Physiol. 1996 Nov;81(5):2173-81.

Interesting. Never heard that.
--
-Larry

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

JMW said:

Larisa said:

What does it do for the muscle that "positives" don't do? Is there
an advantage?

Eccentric training is best at increasing eccentric strength.
Concentric training is best at increasing concentric strength.
Eccentric training may be slightly better than concentric training for
increasing hypertrophy.

Higbie EJ, Cureton KJ, Warren GL 3rd, Prior BM. Effects of concentric
and eccentric training on muscle strength, cross-sectional area, and
neural activation. J Appl Physiol. 1996 Nov;81(5):2173-81.

Interesting. Never heard that.

Really? Where you been hibernating? Bodybuilders have been doing lots of
eccentric [censored] for decades...negatives, forced reps, assisted reps.

David

Lee Michaels said:

"Curt James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Lee Michaels said:

"ToneJohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> specifically are "negatives" and how they're
> performed?

snip

Quoted message said:

The "lowering" of the weight.

snip

Quoted message said:

The hardest part to doing negatives is finding
some way (or someone) to lift the weight into
position to lower the weight.

What about using negatives at the end of a hard set in order to
increase the intensity of that set? Say you've completed as many strict
reps on db benches as you can. You cheat up a few reps while lowering
them as strictly as possible. Or you finish a rep and realize that
you're not going to be able to complete an additional rep. Lowering
that last rep as slooooowly as possible is a negative, right? And there
was no problem in finding a way to lift the dbs into the top position,
was there?

Same with any exercise. Of course that's not a full set of negatives,
but is that the way negatives are intended to be performed? I first
heard of negatives in Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty booklet, but I forget
how he advised they be done.

You can come up with all kinds of ways to yank and jerk the weight into
position to get some more "intensity". Doesn't make it a good idea.

There is no equipment designed for this sort of thing. Many years ago, I had
some T-bar handles welded up to help lift the weights into position for
negatives. I also rigged up an industrial pulley system in a power rack. It
literally took either two or four people to do the negatives safely. And
they all had to be there for every workout too.

Don't get me wrong. I think that some negatives can be quite beneficial now
and then. But the more and more you advance in your training, the less
beneficial they would be. And it is just too complicated and dangerous to
do a complete eccentric only workout.

Exceptions exist FOR CERTAIN MOVEMENTS. Nobody does a complete negative
workout. Not without some specialized support equipment or a group of
willing slaves.

That's not strictly true as I often do a workout concentrating on the
eccentric part of the exercise.

Three sets of 10 reps with a comfortably manageable weight in the
concentric phase, makes for a good strength exercise when returning
slowly and with good form in the eccentric phase.

It also makes a welcome change to the training routine.

Charles said:

Lee Michaels said:

"Curt James" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Lee Michaels wrote:
> "ToneJohn" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> > specifically are "negatives" and how they're
> > performed?
snip
> The "lowering" of the weight.
snip
> The hardest part to doing negatives is finding
> some way (or someone) to lift the weight into
> position to lower the weight.

What about using negatives at the end of a hard set in order to
increase the intensity of that set? Say you've completed as many strict
reps on db benches as you can. You cheat up a few reps while lowering
them as strictly as possible. Or you finish a rep and realize that
you're not going to be able to complete an additional rep. Lowering
that last rep as slooooowly as possible is a negative, right? And there
was no problem in finding a way to lift the dbs into the top position,
was there?

Same with any exercise. Of course that's not a full set of negatives,
but is that the way negatives are intended to be performed? I first
heard of negatives in Mike Mentzer's Heavy Duty booklet, but I forget
how he advised they be done.

You can come up with all kinds of ways to yank and jerk the weight into
position to get some more "intensity". Doesn't make it a good idea.

There is no equipment designed for this sort of thing. Many years ago, I had
some T-bar handles welded up to help lift the weights into position for
negatives. I also rigged up an industrial pulley system in a power rack. It
literally took either two or four people to do the negatives safely. And
they all had to be there for every workout too.

Don't get me wrong. I think that some negatives can be quite beneficial now
and then. But the more and more you advance in your training, the less
beneficial they would be. And it is just too complicated and dangerous to
do a complete eccentric only workout.

Exceptions exist FOR CERTAIN MOVEMENTS. Nobody does a complete negative
workout. Not without some specialized support equipment or a group of
willing slaves.

That's not strictly true as I often do a workout concentrating on the
eccentric part of the exercise.

Three sets of 10 reps with a comfortably manageable weight in the
concentric phase, makes for a good strength exercise when returning
slowly and with good form in the eccentric phase.

It also makes a welcome change to the training routine.

I never do 3 sets of 10, but I agree that eccentrics combined with
concentrics can be productive.

For the eccentric portion, intramuscular tension is increased when

* acceleration is preserved and resistance is greater
* acceleration is decreased and load is increased
* acceleration is lower and resistance is preserved

JMW said:

Larisa said:

What does it do for the muscle that "positives" don't do? Is there an
advantage?

Eccentric training is best at increasing eccentric strength.
Concentric training is best at increasing concentric strength.
Eccentric training may be slightly better than concentric training for
increasing hypertrophy.

Higbie EJ, Cureton KJ, Warren GL 3rd, Prior BM. Effects of concentric
and eccentric training on muscle strength, cross-sectional area, and
neural activation. J Appl Physiol. 1996 Nov;81(5):2173-81.

If you turn upside-down, is a negative really a positive?

cl said:

JMW said:

Larisa said:

What does it do for the muscle that "positives" don't do? Is there an
advantage?

Eccentric training is best at increasing eccentric strength.
Concentric training is best at increasing concentric strength.
Eccentric training may be slightly better than concentric training for
increasing hypertrophy.

Higbie EJ, Cureton KJ, Warren GL 3rd, Prior BM. Effects of concentric
and eccentric training on muscle strength, cross-sectional area, and
neural activation. J Appl Physiol. 1996 Nov;81(5):2173-81.

If you turn upside-down, is a negative really a positive?

Positively no!!

An exercise to be done concentrically (positive) has to be when the
muscle is shortening against resistance in opposition to the vertical
line of gravity.

David Cohen said:

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

JMW said:

"Larisa" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> What does it do for the muscle that "positives" don't do? Is
> there an advantage?

Eccentric training is best at increasing eccentric strength.
Concentric training is best at increasing concentric strength.
Eccentric training may be slightly better than concentric training
for increasing hypertrophy.

Higbie EJ, Cureton KJ, Warren GL 3rd, Prior BM. Effects of
concentric and eccentric training on muscle strength,
cross-sectional area, and neural activation. J Appl Physiol. 1996
Nov;81(5):2173-81.

Interesting. Never heard that.

Really? Where you been hibernating? Bodybuilders have been doing lots
of eccentric [censored] for decades...negatives, forced reps, assisted reps.

David

I knew about negatives. In fact I do them from time to time. But I didn't
know that they are better for hypertrophy than concentric training. I must
live a sheltered life in my little world of pleasant ignorance. 🙂
--
-Larry

cl said:

If you turn upside-down, is a negative really a positive?

That'd mean all the positives are really negatives in
Australia, wouldn't it?

So what happens when an Australian does two negatives at the
same time!? assuming he's standing upright.

--
Jock

John Dunlop said:

cl said:

If you turn upside-down, is a negative really a positive?

That'd mean all the positives are really negatives in
Australia, wouldn't it?

So what happens when an Australian does two negatives at the
same time!? assuming he's standing upright.

We dont allow no double negatives. So are double negatives the problem
or is any negative^x (where x>1) the issue?

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

David Cohen said:

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

JMW wrote:
> "Larisa" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> What does it do for the muscle that "positives" don't do? Is
>> there an advantage?
>
> Eccentric training is best at increasing eccentric strength.
> Concentric training is best at increasing concentric strength.
> Eccentric training may be slightly better than concentric training
> for increasing hypertrophy.
>
> Higbie EJ, Cureton KJ, Warren GL 3rd, Prior BM. Effects of
> concentric and eccentric training on muscle strength,
> cross-sectional area, and neural activation. J Appl Physiol. 1996
> Nov;81(5):2173-81.

Interesting. Never heard that.

Really? Where you been hibernating? Bodybuilders have been doing lots
of eccentric [censored] for decades...negatives, forced reps, assisted reps.

Quoted message said:

I knew about negatives. In fact I do them from time to time. But I
didn't know that they are better for hypertrophy than concentric training.

While bodybuilders are not the brightest group of people on the planet, they
do know how to do two things well...build muscle and lose fat. The fact that
they have been doing plenty of eccentric stuff for years would lead one to
the conclusion that they work.

Quoted message said:

I must live a sheltered life in my little world of pleasant ignorance. 🙂

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

David

"John Dunlop" wrote

Quoted message said:

cl said:

If you turn upside-down, is a negative really a positive?

That'd mean all the positives are really negatives in
Australia, wouldn't it?

So what happens when an Australian does two negatives at the
same time!? assuming he's standing upright.

Aussies standing up??

That would depend on how much beer they have consumed.

David Cohen said:

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

David Cohen said:

"Larry Hodges" <[email hidden]> wrote
> JMW wrote:
>> "Larisa" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> What does it do for the muscle that "positives" don't do? Is
>>> there an advantage?
>>
>> Eccentric training is best at increasing eccentric strength.
>> Concentric training is best at increasing concentric strength.
>> Eccentric training may be slightly better than concentric training
>> for increasing hypertrophy.
>>
>> Higbie EJ, Cureton KJ, Warren GL 3rd, Prior BM. Effects of
>> concentric and eccentric training on muscle strength,
>> cross-sectional area, and neural activation. J Appl Physiol. 1996
>> Nov;81(5):2173-81.
>
> Interesting. Never heard that.

Really? Where you been hibernating? Bodybuilders have been doing lots
of eccentric [censored] for decades...negatives, forced reps, assisted reps.

Quoted message said:

I knew about negatives. In fact I do them from time to time. But I
didn't know that they are better for hypertrophy than concentric training.

While bodybuilders are not the brightest group of people on the planet, they
do know how to do two things well...build muscle and lose fat. The fact that
they have been doing plenty of eccentric stuff for years would lead one to
the conclusion that they work.

Quoted message said:

I must live a sheltered life in my little world of pleasant ignorance. 🙂

If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?

David

They are. They just don't know it.