Stretching is counter productive?

the only time i stretch is after my rides. it helps me recover, helps get rid of soreness.
do what works best for you.

stretching helps me after rides, makes my sore legs feel better. stretching before a ride helps me get warmed up faster and makes my upper body less stiff.

to quote from Friel:

A good example of how tight muscles limit your performance involves the hamstring...Of all the tightness that can result from cycling, this may be the most debilitating. Tight hamstrings restrain the leg during the down stroke. In this condition they work to prevent the leg from straightening, and in doing so, reduce the force produced by the leg. In an attempt to alleviate the tension felt in the back of the leg, the affected cyclist will often lower his or her saddle. A saddle that is set too low further reduces force generation, which in turn reduces power output.

Tight hamstrings can also contribute to a tight lower back, which haunts some riders on long rides...forcing them to abandon. Off the bike, this low-back tightness may become lower-back pain. A consistent and effective program of stretching can prevent, or at the least, alleviate such problems.

A study of 1,543 runners in the Honolulu Marathon found that those who stretched regularly following workouts had fewer injuries than those who didn't. It is noteworthy that in this same study those who stretched only before workouts had the highest rate of injuries.

Stretching after workouts appears to aid the recovery process by improving muscle cells' uptake of amino acids. This promotes protein synthesis...

ETC.

I was hoping to get a reply from Ric because (a) he is the one who suggested that stretching doesn't help much and (b) I believe he knows what he's talking about!

JungleBiker said:

I was hoping to get a reply from Ric because (a) he is the one who suggested that stretching doesn't help much and (b) I believe he knows what he's talking about!

Ouch, are you saying these other guys trying to help you out don't?

JungleBiker said:

In another thread (about training for a 4 day race), Ric said that "there is no evidence that stretching will help you, and some evidence that it is counter productive".
.

My understanding is that the response of Ric's on that thread was relating stretching to post-ride recovery, not stretching generally.

His response was only, directly related to the other poster's recovery routine, so he wasn't saying that stretching in general is counter productive

Hmmmm...seems I've repeated myself:p

Hmmmm...seems I've repeated myself:p

Fat Hack said:

...Hmmmm...seems I've repeated myself:p

Hmmmm...seems I've repeated myself:p

You've just been promoted to the Department of Redundancy Department. 😄

Fat Hack said:

My understanding is that the response of Ric's on that thread was relating stretching to post-ride recovery, not stretching generally.

His response was only, directly related to the other poster's recovery routine, so he wasn't saying that stretching in general is counter productive

No, actually I think he's stated before on other threads that the benefits of stretching are questionable and there is no direct link between stretching and athletic performance. I could be wrong about that but that seems to be what I recall.

I am certain he's stated that if you are going to stretch, then do so after your workout and not before when the muscles are cold as this can cause micro-trauma. Perhaps he'll chime in here after a bit.

so, does the doubt relate to stretching and improved performance, or injury prevention?

I'd love an excuse to quit stretching. :p

wilmar13 said:

Ouch, are you saying these other guys trying to help you out don't?

No, sorry, not really. It's just that there seems to be a lot of conflicting ideas about various aspects of training - like the debate about whether weight training in the gym helps you ride better or not. Ric says it doesn't, but many others (including Friel) suggest it does. In that particular debate I accept Ric's viewpoint because I believe it's based on modern science rather than tradition and subjective feelings.
Based on Ric's comment the other day I wonder if the issue of (post-ride) stretching could be similar and if so perhaps Friel's recommendations for stretching are also invalid?
That's why I'd like to hear a different viewpoint - i.e. Ric's comments - rather than the other guys. No offence intended.
Thanks everyone for your opinions. 🙂

(By the way, I got the impression the other day that Ric is also not a proponent of "base riding" as in the periodization approach advocated by all the authors of training books. But I guess that should be the topic of a new thread!)

A thorough stretching session of 90 sec static stretches for glutes/hams/quads/buttocks regularly adds about 25 watts if I do a graded exercise test to exhaustion. i.e, I fail at 425 w Wmax if I don't stretch and 450 w Wmax if I do stretch. My best Wmax was done after stretching, and I consistently fail to achieve close to it if I don't stretch. I'm a stiff guy though.

-Bikeguy

bikeguy said:

A thorough stretching session of 90 sec static stretches for glutes/hams/quads/buttocks regularly adds about 25 watts if I do a graded exercise test to exhaustion. i.e, I fail at 425 w Wmax if I don't stretch and 450 w Wmax if I do stretch. My best Wmax was done after stretching, and I consistently fail to achieve close to it if I don't stretch. I'm a stiff guy though.

-Bikeguy

Well that's very interesting information and all the more reason for wanting to hear Ric's comments!
Thanks.

JungleBiker said:

No, sorry, not really. It's just that there seems to be a lot of conflicting ideas about various aspects of training - like the debate about whether weight training in the gym helps you ride better or not. Ric says it doesn't, but many others (including Friel) suggest it does. In that particular debate I accept Ric's viewpoint because I believe it's based on modern science rather than tradition and subjective feelings.
Based on Ric's comment the other day I wonder if the issue of (post-ride) stretching could be similar and if so perhaps Friel's recommendations for stretching are also invalid?
That's why I'd like to hear a different viewpoint - i.e. Ric's comments - rather than the other guys. No offence intended.
Thanks everyone for your opinions. 🙂

(By the way, I got the impression the other day that Ric is also not a proponent of "base riding" as in the periodization approach advocated by all the authors of training books. But I guess that should be the topic of a new thread!)

i'll try and post some comments (albeit later when i have some time). However, i'm hoping that Linds (biker_lindz - i think) will chime in, as he's written an excellent article on it in the latest issue of the ABCC coaching magazine (or in the last couple of issues).

Everyone can have a different viewpoint and it's excellent to hear different opinions.

As regards weights there's good evidence it's counter productive for ECP and there are many coaches and sports scientists who don't advise it.

In terms of "base" - most people think of this as just steady riding in say zones 1 or 2 - this isn't an idea i subscribe to for the majority of the people or for very long periods of time - but you're right rather than diluting this thread someone should start another post on this subject.

ric

ric_stern/RST said:

However, i'm hoping that Linds (biker_lindz - i think) will chime in,
ric

I think I've been summoned.🙂

There is no compelling evidence that stretching prevents injury at all. I'm a bit surprised to see a pro-stretcher quoting the Honolulu study. The one being referred to (Lally 1994) found a 35% greater injury rate in people who *do* stretch, not the other way round. See:

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/csa/vol44/lally.htm

Equally, studies into distance runners show that flexibility negatively correlates with performance. See Jones 2002 and Craib et al. 1996.

The idea that hamstring tightness causes a loss in power is derived from a lack of understanding of cycling biomechanics. The knee flexor is actuallly *engaged* during the downstroke, although this seems counterintuitive to some. Just try holding your hamstring while you ride and you'll see what I mean.

Stretching before exercise causes an acute loss in muscle strength. Although this shouldn't bother endurance cyclists it's worth bearing in mind if you're a trackie. See:
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/1179
At the moment just about the only positive evidence for stretching is that it might increase strength a little if done regularly, but again this is of little consequence to endurance riders.
As far as improved (at least acute) recovery is concerned see:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15199225
These comments are in no way intended to knock stretching if someone is suffering from limited mobility, just that there is no evidence that it will help you go quicker if you're a fit competitive cyclist.
Hope this helps; if anyone's interested in the article I wrote earlier in the year you can find it on my website: www.science4sport.com

L.

Thanks Linz!

biker-linz said:

I think I've been summoned.🙂
L.

biker-linz said:

I think I've been summoned.🙂

Stretching before exercise causes an acute loss in muscle strength. Although this shouldn't bother endurance cyclists it's worth bearing in mind if you're a trackie. See:
http://jap.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/89/3/1179
At the moment just about the only positive evidence for stretching is that it might increase strength a little if done regularly, but again this is of little consequence to endurance riders.
L.

Wait which is it? Are you just saying there is evidence both ways? Are you saying it is accepted that streching causes an acute loss in muscle strength, but there is a little bit of data that contradicts this? 😕

BikerLinz, I must be completely opposite from normal people, then again every coach I've had for track&field has told me to stretch. Regarding increased risk of injury from stretching, I would like to ask if the participants stretched properly. If I tried to do the full splits and forced myself into the position, I would undoubtedly tear something. Anything done improperly has an increased risk of injuring you, and most people don't know how to stretch properly, lift weights properly, etc.

When I first started lifting heavy (like doing heavy deadlifts) I didn't stretch before and didn't do a warmup (15 years old). I would get excruciating soreness afterwards, and often periods of back pain. After introducing warmups and stretching, I experienced far less soreness and was able to lift more weight (and more often). I experimented at times, not stretching before doing DL's, and then stretching before (primarily my hamstrings, 90 sec static)
while of course doing a warmup. The result: about a 3-4% increase in weight lifted, consistently. This also increased my vertical jump and decreased a 60 meter dash time. Any 100 m dash athlete would tell you you're nuts if you told them stretching before a dash REDUCES their power during the dash. I don't see see any significant difference between that and sprint cycling.

Interesting discussion for me, in several ways. I have discovered that there is one thing I can do when I am too lazy to do stretching and too responsible to completely omit that...Read about stretching myths🙂

wilmar13 said:

Wait which is it? Are you just saying there is evidence both ways? Are you saying it is accepted that streching causes an acute loss in muscle strength, but there is a little bit of data that contradicts this? 😕

The key word is 'acute'. Immediately after stretching there is a loss of strength *however* regular stretching (ie at other times) *may* slightly enhance strength.

L.