Stress fracture?

hello fellow ADDer!

i am a recent runner person, too, and what you describe is
something that seemed to affect me shortly after i began
running (normally i cycle).

i too felt i was hyperextending, and i had a swollen area on
the inside of my left knee that seemed clearly a bone
problem, and felt tender to touch, like a stress fracture. i
ws very worried.

i iced it regularly for a while and stopped running, only
cycled. the pain went away completely. i have begun running
again and all seems fine so far.

i learned that i was wearing the wrong shoes, so now i
careful about noticing if a problem is associated with
shoes. also, jogging slowly as you mentioned can actually be
harder on the knees. if yuou can build up to good-form
faster pace, you will find that the burden is easier on yuor
legs. also, i try to stay on a treadmill, which is far
kinder than road running.

also, some good xtraining helps. do elliptial, bike,
stairmaster, along with light running when the pain
subsides. also, some strength training.

i seem to have recovered well after about 4 weeks off, but
now i am more careful about training routine.

\\ - - // ( @ @ ) +--------oOOo-(_)--oOOo----
+ +------------------------Oooo----+ oooO
( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_

oh by the way, Terry, i owe you a long-last thanks. a long
time ago, you referred me to a source that led to my current
ADD doc, whom i like very much. so you did me a big favor.
hopefully i can repay you the favor one day.

\\ - - // ( @ @ ) +--------oOOo-(_)--oOOo----
+ +------------------------Oooo----+ oooO
( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_

TerryM2442 said:

2nd try- got no response to my first post.

Can someone offer feedback on an injury I've sustained to
my knee? An xray showed nothing, but the doc said that's
often the case with a stress fracture. However, he said it
could also be tendonitis or torn ligament and is
suggesting a bone scan to offer a differential diagnosis.

What does the pain feel like for each? I'm told that
stress fractures can heal with time, but tendonitis might
require surgery.

You haven't provided very much in the way of symptoms or
training background preceding your injury (and I haven't had
anything close to your description), and that might be why
no one responded. These links have some discussion on stress
fractures (googled on '"stress fracture" symptoms knee'😉:

dynomed.comfoot and aOpen ↗
nkle/Stress_Fracture_of_Leg_and_Foot.html orthopaedi-orthopaedi-Open ↗
cs.hss.edu/services/conditions/knee/osteonecrosis.asp

pponline.co.uk0029.htmOpen ↗

Ligament diagram news.bbc.co.uktOpen ↗
reatment_room/features/newsid_2351000/2351313.stm hc-hc-Open ↗
d2.bupa.co.uk/fact_sheets/mosby_factsheets/Knee_ligament_in-
juries.html

Tendonitis, which may be tendinosis, is discussed here
pponline.co.uk0280.htmOpen ↗

Here's a couple links from knee injury bookmark collection
(leaving out ITB links, since that's outside knee, not
inside): cofc.edukneeinjuries.htmlOpen ↗
peakrun.com97 5.htmOpen ↗

(sorry for shotgun approach, but this isn't something I've
dealt with and your symptoms were vague)

Both stress fractures and tendinitis can heal with time.
I've had tendinitis (possibly tendinosis) in thumbs (iirc)
and achilles and neither needed surgery.

Quoted message said:

I'm a 51yr old female who sloooow jogs, and I mean slow,
during the spring-fall months.

Do you maintain any kind of activity program over the winter
and did you rebuild your running slowly from that in the
spring? Any symptoms in the winter? and do you do any other
activities in the spring-fall months that might contribute
to overuse or help in strengthening?

I was in early 50s (now 57) when I first started having an
assortment of issues, more work related than running
related. While I had started some jogging in late 70s (20-30
min every other day), I didn't start more structured running
until a little over 3 yrs ago although I still only run 3
days a week, but generally 35-50 min (long run about 2x
that). I run mostly in winter (Alaska doesn't have spring or
fall 😉 because of field work in summer. It's taken a while,
but I think I have a better handle now on how I can
challenge my body without breaking it (or at least extending
the time between overdoing something) and some of the things
to look out for with aging.

Keep in mind that Helen Klein didn't start running until 55
and is still going strong at 80+ - running ultras and having
some age group world records to her credit.
pcmarathon.comhklein.htmOpen ↗

Sorry I can't be more specific help.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Hi and thanks for your feedback. Your symptoms sound so much
like mine and I'm glad to hear you're back running.

Like you, I'm suspicious that part of this could be shoe-
related. I've had milder symptoms in the past when my shoes
were no good, so maybe it's time to get a new pair and see
if that helps.

I wish I were more disciplined to do xtraining, but I really
don't, other than light biking now and then.

It's 2 weeks now and the pain isn't quite as bad, but the
knee is still moving funny. I just took a short bike ride
with little problem so maybe I'm on the way to recovery.

Thanks again for your thoughts. Happy running!

Terry <a href="www.addconsults.com">ADD Consults</a> "The
world's only online AD/HD eClinic"

Well, I'll be! I'm glad you are happy with your doc! You've
already repaid me with your kind comments.

Take care, Terry <a href="www.addconsults.com">ADD
Consults</a> "The world's only online AD/HD eClinic"

Hi, Wow, those are great resources- thank you so much.
My Googling didn't bring up nearly as much that was
this helpful.

Quoted message said:

You haven't provided very much in the way of symptoms or
training background preceding your injury

Since my late 20s, I've had pretty much the same routine- I
slow jog from spring-fall but since I'm a cold weather wimp
(I live in Michigan), do little during the winter, though I
TRY to get on the treadmill now and then.

The routine is, I start the season by walk/jog for about 20
minutes until I can work up to a full jog for 35-45 minutes
straight. This can take almost a month because I know that I
have to take it slow. For some reason, I've never been able
to run fast as I get winded easily and fatigue. This is true
no matter what my age or weight is.

This time around, I may have pushed myself a bit too hard.
After working up to a full 35 minute jog, I found myself in
discomfort. Instead of easing up, I kept pushing for more
distance. Dumb.

Anyway, no...I tend to be a winter wuss as I don't tolerate
cold and have a hard time sticking with the treadmill. But
if I'm traveling to a warm climate, I do get some short jogs
in then. Hadn't had any problems until 2 weeks ago.

I'm thinking that I may have over done it and am in need of
new shoes.

Sounds like there's hope that I will be able to run again.
Keeping my fingers crossed-

Terry

<a href="www.addconsults.com">ADD Consults</a> "The world's
only online AD/HD eClinic"

"TerryM2442" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

2nd try- got no response to my first post.

Can someone offer feedback on an injury I've sustained to
my knee? An

xray

Quoted message said:

showed nothing, but the doc said that's often the case
with a stress

fracture.

Stress fractures don't show until they start to heal.

Quoted message said:

However, he said it could also be tendonitis or torn
ligament and is

suggesting

Quoted message said:

a bone scan to offer a differential diagnosis.

And probably a few other possibilities.

Quoted message said:

What does the pain feel like for each?

Not to be funny but it's different for everyone. There is no
chart has has some nice 1 to 1 mapping of pain to problem.

Quoted message said:

I'm told that stress fractures can heal with time,

Not "can" but do heal with time unless something is
really ominous. The amount of time is dependent on degree
of fracture.

< but tendonitis might require surgery.

Careful, surgery for tendonitis very unlikely unless
something is torn. With your mileage and pace I strongly
doubt you have torn anything . Most tendonitis needs some
form of rest and care not a knife. I take it he/she did not
offer and anti inflammatory in the interim? .

Quoted message said:

I'm a 51yr old female who sloooow jogs, and I mean slow,
during the

spring-fall

Quoted message said:

months. I worked my way up to 2 or 2 1/2 miles per day or
every other

day and

Quoted message said:

am now unable to run because of sharp knee pain
(interior side of

knee), even

Quoted message said:

with walking. My knee also feels unstable, ie like it's
hyperflexing.

I've had

Quoted message said:

minor pain this whole season, but chalked it up to my age;
I've been

jogging

Quoted message said:

since my late 20s.

It could be anything from simply overuse to full blown
arthritis or worse. Any guesses from the very minimal
information you gave would be in fact a guess. Best advice
is to trust you Doctor to do the appropriate tests. No
shingle here but a bone scan will in or out many of the
potential problems. If the scan shows nothing an MRI may be
the next step. Bone scans are cheaper and why they went that
route plus you age and family history you gave the doc.

Quoted message said:

Any tips? The idea of putting away my running shoes for
the rest of

the summer

Quoted message said:

is more than depressing.

Patience and good luck!!

-DougF

I can tell you the answer:

#1. If you have changed running surfaces, such as switching
# from a treadmill
to hard asphault, then, regardless of how much conditioning
you may have, YOU WILL INJURE YOUR KNEE! It will happen
every time, particularly if the course is not completely
flat. Muscles, tendons, and ligaments are stressed in
different ways when there is a change of surface.

#2. The same thinking holds true even if you have not
# "changed" running
surfaces. In this situation you have progressed to fast. I
would either cut back on the mileage in half mile increments
& cut back on jogging days altogether. Slowly add
mileage/days & you will be cured.

Lay off completely until you are totally healed! Even if it
means laying off the entire season (as you call it). You'll
know if you go to run again and the pain crops up. If this
happens lay off for 2 weeks and then try again. Keep laying
off for 2 week periods until you are better. Of course, if
the pain is severe, then lay off in 4-6 week increments.

Best of luck! This advice comes from one who has first
practiced what he preached. I was befuddled, as are you, &
this is the solution that finally worked!

ChrisGuess [email hidden]

TerryM2442 said:

The routine is, I start the season by walk/jog for about
20 minutes until I can work up to a full jog for 35-45
minutes straight. This can take almost a month because I
know that I have to take it slow.

Ok, that seems about right, and it's good you rebuild
slowly. If you were to maintain some level of activity over
the winter, it *might* not take as long, or it still might.
After a full summer field season (mid-May to mid-Sept in
busy years), it typically took me a couple weeks to recover,
then 2-4 wks or more to get system running again. And if we
got ice before then, it took much longer.

Quoted message said:

For some reason, I've never been able to run fast as I get
winded easily and fatigue. This is true no matter what my
age or weight is.

Do you run hard? or have you tried running at a
conversational effort (talk or sing to yourself if you have
to) and still have the same problem. Are all your runs the
same or do you alternate hard / easy days?

Here's some thoughts on challenges to watch for with aerobic
training as you age.

pponline.co.uk0697.htmOpen ↗

Could the recent injury be a result of something else and
running was just the vehicle by which it manifested itself?
Muscle imbalance, insufficient quality of nutrients
(calcium, in particular), not enough sleep, stress at work?
Is your job a desk job or lots of time on feet, esp. on
concrete? Have there been any changes in rest of life that
might have contributed to this. I know you're just asking
about a possible stress fracture and fixing it, but you'll
need to figure out what caused it and fix that so you don't
do it again.

Quoted message said:

I'm thinking that I may have over done it and am in need
of new shoes.

New shoes are always a possibility.

Quoted message said:

Sounds like there's hope that I will be able to run again.
Keeping my fingers crossed-

Don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to run again.
Hang in there. It may take awhile to sort some things out,
but you should be running again.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

TerryM2442 said:

This is true no matter what my age or weight is.

I'd like to try being 20, again. How do you do it?

<vbg>

Steve

PS: this link has some interesting observations on response to weight
training after menopause.
pponline.co.uk0884.htmOpen ↗

I know you weren't weight training, but some strength
training can be helpful esp. after 50, to reduce injury
potential. But I'm also wondering if these effects can
contribute to injury potential while just running. Anyway,
just a thought to add to your thinking. These are just a
couple links that I stumbled on to while looking for
something else a few days ago.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope