strengthening quads--need advice

Pat in TX said:

Okay, I admit my interest has been piqued reading the posts that mention
strengthening the quads. As a cyclist and not-so-good hill climber, I want
stronger quads. Therefore, I am soliciting info on what I can do in swimming
that will build my quads.

Here is what I have gleaned from the posts:
1. get some swim fins and use them. Should I start with Zoomers and proceed
to longer fins? I already have some scuba diving fins, but I guess I
shouldn't start out using them.
2. do squats on dry land or lunges
3. get in with the rowing machine bunch
4. using the kickboard may not help here because the kick itself changes
when using a kickboard

and, I need to get the hamstrings stronger, too. Is there some swim drill
that will help with this? right now, I have been doing power
walking--backwards in the shallow section of the pool. (Usually a half mile
forwards and then a half mile backwards)

thanks for constructive advice,

Pat in TX

Doing squats in the gym is the gold standard of improving quad
strength, and also improving your overall metabolic conditioning. If
you don't want to squat, then you can dead-lift or simply use the leg
press machine. I'm sure you will find it helpful for your cycling.
Not as much for swimming, except the push-off from the wall, and you
will have less issues with high heart rate, out of breath, etc. during
sprinting in the pool due to the high intensity that leg work places on
the body.

With respect to swimming, I'm having some good cross-over success with
elliptical trainers. Not in the normal, forward fashion, they don't
really help swimming as this motion mimics running. Running doesn't
help kicking in the pool because running is mainly the back of the leg
(hamstring) while kicking is mainly the front of the leg (quad). But
if you do the elliptical motion "backwards", it involves a lot more
force during the leg extension phase of the motion, which is the
downbeat of the kick in the pool - very effective to making legs less
tired in the pool.

Hope this helps,
Eric

"Pat in TX" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Okay, I admit my interest has been piqued reading the posts that
mention strengthening the quads. As a cyclist and not-so-good hill
climber, I want stronger quads. Therefore, I am soliciting info on
what I can do in swimming that will build my quads.

Here is what I have gleaned from the posts:
1. get some swim fins and use them. Should I start with Zoomers and
proceed to longer fins? I already have some scuba diving fins, but I
guess I shouldn't start out using them.
2. do squats on dry land or lunges
3. get in with the rowing machine bunch
4. using the kickboard may not help here because the kick itself
changes when using a kickboard

and, I need to get the hamstrings stronger, too. Is there some swim
drill that will help with this? right now, I have been doing power
walking--backwards in the shallow section of the pool. (Usually a half
mile forwards and then a half mile backwards)

thanks for constructive advice,

Pat in TX

Pat my own best experience was spinning to work on my quads.
The long stif SCUBA fins ould not be good idea IMHO. You cycling cadence
should be around 60 revolutions, so you will want to emulate that in the
water. On a large hill you might slow to 40 rpm, but no slower unless you
ride a "mountain-bike" with a super high first gear ratio.

Zoomers are nice becuase they increase resistance and help you increase
the amont of flex at your foot. I have very tight hamstrings and quads
and cannot go forward with just an unassisted flutter kick.
But I find that my regular workouts which include 36 lengths of kick with
zoomers (mostly flutter and fly, but also flutter on back and breast) I
have much better than expected performance on my bike - especially on the
moderate hills. Yeah, the really long big ones still kick my butt, but I
don't have much bike milage these days.

Quoted message said:

Pat my own best experience was spinning to work on my quads.
The long stif SCUBA fins ould not be good idea IMHO. You cycling cadence
should be around 60 revolutions, so you will want to emulate that in the
water. On a large hill you might slow to 40 rpm, but no slower unless you
ride a "mountain-bike" with a super high first gear ratio.

spinning in the water? maybe holding on to a lane line and "cycling" my
legs? I usually spin around 75 rpm on my road bike. I know, it should be
higher, but that seems to be my "groove". I have been doing some leg presses
and that helps (I think). Are you saying blue Zoomers?

Pat in TX

Pat in TX said:

Okay, I admit my interest has been piqued reading the posts that mention
strengthening the quads. As a cyclist and not-so-good hill climber, I want
stronger quads. Therefore, I am soliciting info on what I can do in swimming
that will build my quads.

I would use a step machine. I am using one, actually. Use a model where
the steps operate independently.

Quoted message said:

Pat in TX said:

Okay, I admit my interest has been piqued reading the posts that mention
strengthening the quads. As a cyclist and not-so-good hill climber, I want
stronger quads. Therefore, I am soliciting info on what I can do in swimming
that will build my quads.

Here is what I have gleaned from the posts:
1. get some swim fins and use them. Should I start with Zoomers and proceed
to longer fins? I already have some scuba diving fins, but I guess I
shouldn't start out using them.
2. do squats on dry land or lunges
3. get in with the rowing machine bunch
4. using the kickboard may not help here because the kick itself changes
when using a kickboard

and, I need to get the hamstrings stronger, too. Is there some swim drill
that will help with this? right now, I have been doing power
walking--backwards in the shallow section of the pool. (Usually a half mile
forwards and then a half mile backwards)

thanks for constructive advice,

Pat in TX

Doing squats in the gym is the gold standard of improving quad
strength, and also improving your overall metabolic conditioning. If
you don't want to squat, then you can dead-lift or simply use the leg
press machine. I'm sure you will find it helpful for your cycling.

Is this really the best way to improve strength for an aerobic sport? I
would say the step machine would be better, because the lifting is done
under a higher aerobic load. Maybe that's not the right way to say it.

Quoted message said:

Not as much for swimming, except the push-off from the wall, and you
will have less issues with high heart rate, out of breath, etc. during
sprinting in the pool due to the high intensity that leg work places on
the body.

I don't know, but I would say that just lifting a heavy weight several
times will improve strength, but that most of that strength won't be
usable in cycling because it will be the wrong kind of muscle fiber. But
like I said, I don't know.

jtaylor will probably say "No," followed by something irrelevant, but
what do the muscle fiber experts say?

Quoted message said:

With respect to swimming, I'm having some good cross-over success with
elliptical trainers. Not in the normal, forward fashion, they don't
really help swimming as this motion mimics running. Running doesn't
help kicking in the pool because running is mainly the back of the leg
(hamstring) while kicking is mainly the front of the leg (quad). But
if you do the elliptical motion "backwards", it involves a lot more
force during the leg extension phase of the motion, which is the
downbeat of the kick in the pool - very effective to making legs less
tired in the pool.

Hope this helps,
Eric

Pat:

Swimming is not the ideal sport to build leg strength for climbing.
However, it will build your lower back muscles that are important for
climbing, especially if you swim with a lower back arch. Also, if you
do flip turns it will increase your flexibility which will allow you to
sit back in the saddle and push. So, I think that swimming is a good
component for cycling.

With regards to building leg strength, I would advise that you work
squats, and also hams, and to a lesser extent, calves. Hams are a very
important and undersued muscle group for cycling. Get on a leg curl
maching, the one that you lay down flat on your stomach and you hook
your ankles to the padded lever thing. curl your hamstrings. whithout
lifting your upper body and arching your back. Learning to use this
muscles will increase your climbing ability considerably.

If you can, find a hill that will take you about ten minutes to climb.
sit back on the saddle and ride up trying to use your hamstring muscles
only. When your foot is at the the bottom, prentend that you are
scraping the bottom of your foot on the ground. This will initiate the
hamstring pulling action. pull up and then pull up with your other
foot. Try not to push (your legs will do that naturally) just focus
pulling back when your foot is at the bottom, and than on briniging
your knees up to your chest. If you do tis exersice right, your
hamstring and butt muscles will be sore at the top of the hill.

Try this exercise: focus on pulling up with your hamstrings five times
up with your left leg, and then five times up with your right. Keep
going and count to four with your left, and then with your right, then
keep counting down until you get to one. Then start again.

Try different tings on the hill. Try using a very low gear and spin up
fast using your hamstrings. Also, try using a heavy gear and try using
your hamstrings only and then pushing with your quads only. Try
climbing standing the entire hill in a low gear, and then in a high
gear. You will begin to notice that your strenght increases, but also
which position you favor. Regardless of your best climbing position,
bring your hamstring in both sitting and standing.

Andres

Martin Smith said:

Pat in TX said:

Okay, I admit my interest has been piqued reading the posts that mention
strengthening the quads. As a cyclist and not-so-good hill climber, I want
stronger quads. Therefore, I am soliciting info on what I can do in swimming
that will build my quads.

I would use a step machine. I am using one, actually. Use a model where
the steps operate independently.

"Pat in TX" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pat my own best experience was spinning to work on my quads.
The long stif SCUBA fins ould not be good idea IMHO. You cycling
cadence should be around 60 revolutions, so you will want to emulate
that in the water. On a large hill you might slow to 40 rpm, but no
slower unless you ride a "mountain-bike" with a super high first gear
ratio.

spinning in the water? maybe holding on to a lane line and "cycling"
my legs? I usually spin around 75 rpm on my road bike. I know, it
should be higher, but that seems to be my "groove". I have been doing
some leg presses and that helps (I think). Are you saying blue
Zoomers?

Pat in TX

Sorry, I didn't proof read it very well.
I meant to imply spinning on a trainer or in the gym, not in the water.
If you really wanted to cross train and do an exercise in the water, then
yes I would recommend the zoomers - and yes I use the blue ones becuase
of my low normal kick rate and limited flexibility.

When I am in my groove for cycling my cadence varies between 85 and 110
rpm, I was making a slight assumption based on what you had posted about
yourself and should have left it obscure and just recommended you try to
maintain similar resistance and cadence as when on the bike.

"Pat in TX" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:
The other thing to bear in mind is re-assessing your pedaling style. I
have run into quite a bit cyclists that do not use toe clips or straps
and never learned to apply 360 degrees of force, instead they basically
just alternate pushing down the pedal.

Good exercise is to pedal with just one leg/foot to practice the push
forward, then push down, then pull back, and finally lift up motion. This
is easily done on a trainer or cycle machine, or on fairly level ground.
Then you pair both legs and continue the motions.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Pat my own best experience was spinning to work on my quads.
The long stif SCUBA fins ould not be good idea IMHO. You cycling
cadence should be around 60 revolutions, so you will want to emulate
that in the water. On a large hill you might slow to 40 rpm, but no
slower unless you ride a "mountain-bike" with a super high first gear
ratio.

spinning in the water? maybe holding on to a lane line and "cycling"
my legs? I usually spin around 75 rpm on my road bike. I know, it
should be higher, but that seems to be my "groove". I have been doing
some leg presses and that helps (I think). Are you saying blue
Zoomers?

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Martin Smith said:

Pat in TX said:

Okay, I admit my interest has been piqued reading the posts that mention
strengthening the quads. As a cyclist and not-so-good hill climber, I want
stronger quads. Therefore, I am soliciting info on what I can do in swimming
that will build my quads.

I would use a step machine. I am using one, actually. Use a model where
the steps operate independently.

Quoted message said:

Pat:

Swimming is not the ideal sport to build leg strength for climbing.
However, it will build your lower back muscles that are important for
climbing, especially if you swim with a lower back arch. Also, if you
do flip turns it will increase your flexibility which will allow you to
sit back in the saddle and push. So, I think that swimming is a good
component for cycling.

With regards to building leg strength, I would advise that you work
squats, and also hams, and to a lesser extent, calves. Hams are a very
important and undersued muscle group for cycling. Get on a leg curl
maching, the one that you lay down flat on your stomach and you hook
your ankles to the padded lever thing. curl your hamstrings. whithout
lifting your upper body and arching your back. Learning to use this
muscles will increase your climbing ability considerably.

If you can, find a hill that will take you about ten minutes to climb.
sit back on the saddle and ride up trying to use your hamstring muscles
only. When your foot is at the the bottom, prentend that you are
scraping the bottom of your foot on the ground. This will initiate the
hamstring pulling action. pull up and then pull up with your other
foot. Try not to push (your legs will do that naturally) just focus
pulling back when your foot is at the bottom, and than on briniging
your knees up to your chest. If you do tis exersice right, your
hamstring and butt muscles will be sore at the top of the hill.

Try this exercise: focus on pulling up with your hamstrings five times
up with your left leg, and then five times up with your right. Keep
going and count to four with your left, and then with your right, then
keep counting down until you get to one. Then start again.

Try different tings on the hill. Try using a very low gear and spin up
fast using your hamstrings. Also, try using a heavy gear and try using
your hamstrings only and then pushing with your quads only. Try
climbing standing the entire hill in a low gear, and then in a high
gear. You will begin to notice that your strenght increases, but also
which position you favor. Regardless of your best climbing position,
bring your hamstring in both sitting and standing.

Andres

Suggest also posting to the cycling or triathlon newsgroups for advice
on strengthening quads for cycling. I personally notice very little
crossover between cycling and swimming fitness. The general
conditioning helps of course, but if you are struggling on the hills
then your limiter is force. Swimming with fins isn't going to help
much, if at all, with developing more force for cycling.

Most people use weights or bodyweight exercises to build quad strength
- squats, step ups, lunges, leg extensions, etc. Others prefer a more
specific approach - going out on the bike and going up some long hills
sitting down with a low cadence (40-60) and as high a gear as you can
manage. Also worth asking whether you could lose any weight - shedding
half a stone will make a huge difference to your power-weight ratio
which is critical if you want to be a good climber.