Strength phase - creatine

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by DarrylZ
Wondered if anyone could share more info re the use of creatine, since my climbing has been less than decent this season, going into the winter i have decided to embark on a 8 week strength developing phase.

So for know i will shorten distances incorporate weight training etc. Was wondering if during this phase their would be any benefit of using Creatine, here is what i have read, heard etc if anyone could assist me:-

-One will tend to retain water.?
- Can speed up dehydration, due to extracting water from the muscles?
- Will increase muscle mass?
- What are the disadvantages?
- Is it legal?

Thanx again for any insight.

I lift weights three days a week and go cycling three other days. I swear by creatine on the days that I lift but avoid it like the plague on the days I go cycling. Creatine will certainly increase muscle mass but it can also retain water (which is why some who use too much of it can get muscle cramps). Creatine works best for activities such as bodybuilding and weightlifting, but is pretty useless for activities such as cycling and running. I have no clue about the legality of creatine in racing. When I use it, I only use 5 grams at a time.

If you are looking to increase the strength in your legs and assist your climbing, I would strongly recommend squats and leg pressed and the like at the gym, and increase your protein intake.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by DarrylZ
Wondered if anyone could share more info re the use of creatine, since my climbing has been less than decent this season, going into the winter i have decided to embark on a 8 week strength developing phase.

So for know i will shorten distances incorporate weight training etc. Was wondering if during this phase their would be any benefit of using Creatine, here is what i have read, heard etc if anyone could assist me:-

-One will tend to retain water.?
- Can speed up dehydration, due to extracting water from the muscles?
- Will increase muscle mass?
- What are the disadvantages?
- Is it legal?

Thanx again for any insight.

assuming that you do endurance cycle racing (i.e., races > ~ 90-secs in duration), then it's highly unlikely that strength will be a limiting factor for you. it maybe in some people (e.g., they've suffered atrophy of muscles after breaking a limb, you have a functional disability, or you're a frail old lady), but for most people strength isn't limiting.

elite endurance athletes are no stronger than age, gender and mass matched sedentary, healthy controls, and in many instances non-matched controls can meet the forces required in endurance bike racing.

it's highly likely that if your climbing isn't as good as you want it to be, it's likely to be either 1) your LT is too low, 2) your VO2max is too low, 3) your mass is too much, or 4) a combination of the previous three.

in these instances above, weight training will not help you, and will be likely detrimental, especially if you take creatine, as this will increase your mass, without increasing your sustainable power output.

thus, to improve your climbing you need to work on your LT, your VO2max, and in some cases your weight. small changes in weight loss, e.g., 1 kg, won't make much difference to your climbing ability, especially compared to increasing your (sustainable) power output.

ric

Quoted post said:

it's highly likely that if your climbing isn't as good as you want it to be, it's likely to be either 1) your LT is too low, 2) your VO2max is too low, 3) your mass is too much, or 4) a combination of the previous three.

in these instances above, weight training will not help you, and will be likely detrimental, especially if you take creatine, as this will increase your mass, without increasing your sustainable power output.

thus, to improve your climbing you need to work on your LT, your VO2max, and in some cases your weight. small changes in weight loss, e.g., 1 kg, won't make much difference to your climbing ability, especially compared to increasing your (sustainable) power output.

ric [/B]

Hi folks

Thanx for the feedback, you have all touched on some valid points which i have come to realise, and Ric you hit the 3 factors that i am battling with on the head.
I have have in the past tried to ride in certain training zones but found this very difficult, so now using my indoor trainer which i am finding easier to do decent training in the various zones for LT & VO2max.

My problem is that i am rather big in cycling terms, though don't carry excess weight. I have had to make a descision and that at 6'3' 220pds i don't really want to lose more weight and start looking like a string bean, so i thought if i could possibly improve my strength it would possibly help.
I have started doing squats etc in the gym.

I guess you can't always have it all, but it's still a challenge for me to see if i can improve my climbing .

Thanx for the input

assuming that you're trained (i.e., you currently race or have the ability to race) then weight training (e.g., squats) won't improve your performance at endurance cycling performance and will likely make it worse, this is because with hypertrophy of the muscles there will be a decrease in (relative terms) of aerobic machinery, and you'll have more weight to lug up hills (with no extra sustainable power).

if you don't have any hypertrophy, then your strength increase (e.g., if you can squat more weight) is neuromuscular in nature and there will be no crossover to cycling performance.

on the other hand if loosing mass isn't an option for you, then the only way to increase your climbing ability is to increase your LT and VO2max. these cannot be trained by weights, and will realistically need to be done on the bike. sessions that will help are long heavy tempo workouts (e.g., 1 - 3 hrs at a pretty tough level, but below TT pace), long intervals (e.g., 1 to 4 x 15 to 30-mins at TT power, once or twice a week), and shorter more intense efforts (e.g., 3 to 8 x 4 to 5 mins at the hardest effort you can sustain).

ric

Hi Rick
You've thrown everything out of sync now, but im glad to see that as per your suggestion some of what im already doing seems in the right direction i.e
Once a week i do +- 1 hr with 3 - 4 heavy gear intervals for 5 min at a time @ about 85% of max h/rate. Cadence 70+

Another day for 1hr+ i will do +- 6 short intervals +- 30 seconds with the heaviest gear i can push, cadence 75+.

Would my understanding then be that the weight training in your opinion would not really aid in improving my climbing?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DarrylZ
[B]Hi Rick
You've thrown everything out of sync now, but im glad to see that as per your suggestion some of what im already doing seems in the right direction i.e
Once a week i do +- 1 hr with 3 - 4 heavy gear intervals for 5 min at a time @ about 85% of max h/rate. Cadence 70+
[/quote]

that's the sort of effort i'd prescribe (~ 85% HRmax) for the long intervals i suggested (15 to 30 mins, 1 x 4 intervals, 1 or 2 x's per week). there's zero point artificially riding a big gear (low cadence) for these or practically any other intervals. if you're going uphill, then yes, you'll need to ride at a low cadence (but that's generally not out of choice).

Quoted post said:

Another day for 1hr+ i will do +- 6 short intervals +- 30 seconds with the heaviest gear i can push, cadence 75+.

Quoted post said:

Would my understanding then be that the weight training in your opinion would not really aid in improving my climbing? [/B]

[looking at the available scientific evidence, and using first principles by looking at the forces required when climbing there's no way anyone could really think that weights will improve climbing in *trained* riders (*any* exercise will improve climbing in untrained riders).

ric [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey Ric
Youve now just created havoc with all my theories and plans, guess i need to get back to the drawing board to re plan this whole strength building phase,

thanx for your insight