Streamlined Lunatic Fringe

[email hidden] (dogboy) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

This post is for purely selfish reasons. I want to see more streamliners on the road and at
the races!

Yo, Dog-

Thanks for the kudos- but the clear fact is that is takes tons of inspiration and effort to build a
viable streamliner. The Portland Streamliner Gang got a head start in a lot of areas: existing
molds, donated shop time, discounted parts and a bunch of cooperative fellow goofballs. As it was,
only 3 of the 6 Varna clones made it to the races in May after 6 months of construction.

The guys have been taking their streamliners on the roads around Corvallis, though. I heard
some hair-raising stories from one 70 mile ride... something about burning up brakes on high
speed descents.

BTW: I want a streamliner, too.

Jeff

[email hidden] (dogboy) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

This post is for purely selfish reasons. I want to see more streamliners on the road and at
the races!

That is a very good echo to last 4 years! I was ranting the same thing about those sleek velomobiles
in Europe and we only get one or two Lietras. Early 1999, I believe, I fully closed a delta trike,
ruined the frame, threw it in the dumpster and went to an S&B tadpole. Hopefully someday this part
of California will get something like the Go-One3 for a little less than $7000.

Quoted message said:

After 13 years of riding a streamliner on the road out west here, I can't help but wonder, is
this the best kept secret in bicycling or am I always gonna be the charter member of the
lunatic fringe

Quoted message said:

I would like to see more streamliners at the races, but I REALLY want to see more of them out on
the road.

DITTO!

Quoted message said:

Racing is great, but it requires so much organization. My dream would be to have a dozen or so
folks in streamliners, in a pack cruising down the road, but I'm starting to think that this is
not gonna happen in my lifetime.

another ditto.

Quoted message said:

Oh well, maybe I'm just the luckiest lunatic in the asylum.

Congrats from a nerd in a partial streamliner for keeping the dream alive!

Catrike boy (Chris Jordan) Santa Cruz, CA.

Quoted message said:

dogboy

What's a matter dogboy, lonely at the top? You ARE in a different league Most recumbents are viewed
as a comfortable way to get some exercise. Speed is one of the last things people want. Common
questions are : does that thing have low enough gears for me? Not
: does that thing have high enough gears for me? People are more concern
with climbing then decending without realizing that the downhill speed is what blasts you the next
climb. It's a good thing to be on top. Enjoy the moment. Speedy

dogboy said:

This post is for purely selfish reasons. I want to see more streamliners on the road and at the
races! After 13 years of riding a streamliner on the road out west here, I can't help but wonder,
is this the best kept secret in bicycling or am I always gonna be the charter member of the
lunatic fringe. It seems like the midwest streamliner racing is alive and well, but it's dying
here out west. Except for the wonderful and much appreciated efforts of Jeff Wills and George &
Carol Leone, no one is stepping up out here. Even Battle Mt. is organised by Gary Hill and others
from the mid west (with the exception of Matt Weaver). What's going on here. I thought embracing
new ideas was kosher here in Calif. The drawbacks of streamliners, too expensive, too fragile, too
hot inside, too hard to transport are problems every new design has to deal with. Mountain bikes
went through the same process when they appeared on the horizon. The timely development and
refinement of streamliners is directly connected to their popularity. I would like to see more
streamliners at the races, but I REALLY want to see more of them out on the road. Racing is great,
but it requires so much organization. My dream would be to have a dozen or so folks in
streamliners, in a pack cruising down the road, but I'm starting to think that this is not gonna
happen in my lifetime. Oh well, maybe I'm just the luckiest lunatic in the asylum. dogboy

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A Lietra or a Go-One3 are nice to look at but will never match the performance of a Coyote Three
wheelers, in general, are a hard way to go fast. aerodynamics is key and a trike platform struggles
in that area. Speedy

Christopher Jordan said:

[email hidden] (dogboy) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

This post is for purely selfish reasons. I want to see more streamliners on the road and at the
races!

That is a very good echo to last 4 years! I was ranting the same thing about those sleek
velomobiles in Europe and we only get one or two Lietras. Early 1999, I believe, I fully closed a
delta trike, ruined the frame, threw it in the dumpster and went to an S&B tadpole. Hopefully
someday this part of California will get something like the Go-One3 for a little less than $7000.

Quoted message said:

After 13 years of riding a streamliner on the road out west here, I can't help but wonder, is
this the best kept secret in bicycling or am I always gonna be the charter member of the
lunatic fringe

Quoted message said:

I would like to see more streamliners at the races, but I REALLY want to see more of them out
on the road.

DITTO!

Quoted message said:

Racing is great, but it requires so much organization. My dream would be to have a dozen or so
folks in streamliners, in a pack cruising down the road, but I'm starting to think that this is
not gonna happen in my lifetime.

another ditto.

Quoted message said:

Oh well, maybe I'm just the luckiest lunatic in the asylum.

Congrats from a nerd in a partial streamliner for keeping the dream alive!

Catrike boy (Chris Jordan) Santa Cruz, CA.

Quoted message said:

dogboy

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"S. Delaire \"Rotatorrecumbent\"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

What's a matter dogboy, lonely at the top? You ARE in a different league

I admit that is true, but there is another California loner also in a different league. Going back
to the $7000 Go-One price, I phoned the salesman to please stop by Santa Cruz, since he was in San
Jose (40 miles or so) for a very interested customer. Next I heard the Go-One was in Portland,
Seattle, etc. Bah! Made my own streamliner.

Life is too short, so I used the money for a WizWheelz (w/motor @ fairing), an Optima Rider, and a
Catrike Speed. The WizWheelz became a Zzippered convertible streamliner. Catrike =low laid back
stealth, Optima = cruiser. Schwinn is out to pasture. Sad going this "home made" route. But nothing
else was appearing .

Quoted message said:

Most recumbents are viewed as a comfortable way to get some exercise.

That is what the Optima is good for: smooth with adjustable shock yet almost as heavy as an EZ-3
with that steel frame! A real workout.

Quoted message said:

Speed is one of the last things people want.

Most SANE people maybe! Others, like me, love higher gears and find every cornering limit. I
overpower the motor on the TT, and found I do not need motors on the other 3 tadpoles. (the Catrike
SPEED was one of the first things I wanted!)

Chris

Quoted message said:

Common questions are : does that thing have low enough gears for me? Not
: does that thing have high enough gears for me?

S. Delaire \'Rotatorrecumbent\ said:

A Lietra or a Go-One3 are nice to look at but will never match the performance of a Coyote Three
wheelers, in general, are a hard way to go fast. aerodynamics is key and a trike platform
struggles in that area. Speedy

True, but hitting loose gravel on a high speed descent on a single-track streamliner is not my idea
of fun. In addition, I would not even consider riding a Coyote when the roads were covered with
snow or ice.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

S. Delaire \'Rotatorrecumbent\ said:

... Common questions are : does that thing have low enough gears for me? Not
: does that thing have high enough gears for me? People are more concern
with climbing then decending without realizing that the downhill speed is what blasts you the next
climb. It's a good thing to be on top. Enjoy the moment. Speedy

While an heavier aerodynamic bike will be faster than a high-end upright on rolling hills, on
longer climbs it is not possible to gain enough momentum to assist on more than a short portion of
the climb.

Of course, there are hilly areas such as SW Wisconsin where many of the stop signs and intersections
are located in the valleys, requiring that all the kinetic energy gained on the descent be converted
into heat by the brakes. 🙁

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

"S. Delaire "Rotatorrecumbent"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A Lietra or a Go-One3 are nice to look at but will never match the

performance of a Coyote

Leitra it is. www.leitra.dk

I agree about the performance - I left one behind (gasping after the danish champion) at last years
EU Staff on my unfaired SWB (the Leitra contained the inventor and builder of the Leitra, who is in
his sixties).

Torben

we have a solid pro level bike club in town and hills as steep as 21% , many tour riders come here
to train. I haven't seen anyone make any major time on dogboy on any climbs Coyote is 45 pounds he
usually stays right on their heels going up (a mind game he plays on them) and then coasts away on
the other side. local guys all know his abilities which is why dogboy is so frustrated, no one to
play with any more. Someday others will see and understand Speedy

Tom Sherman said:

S. Delaire \'Rotatorrecumbent\ said:

... Common questions are : does that thing have low enough gears for me? Not
: does that thing have high enough gears for me? People are more concern
with climbing then decending without realizing that the downhill speed is what blasts you the
next climb. It's a good thing to be on top. Enjoy the moment. Speedy

While an heavier aerodynamic bike will be faster than a high-end upright on rolling hills, on
longer climbs it is not possible to gain enough momentum to assist on more than a short portion of
the climb.

Of course, there are hilly areas such as SW Wisconsin where many of the stop signs and
intersections are located in the valleys, requiring that all the kinetic energy gained on the
descent be converted into heat by the brakes. 🙁

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

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Whoa! I not sure I've done any 21% climbs and if I'm frustrated, it's all speedy's fault. The COYOTE
was his brain child. I guess where I was hoping this discussion would go was first, to get a
sampling of what kind of interest,if any, there is in streamliners and secondly, what kind of design
configuration would folks want. It seems that both speed and ultilitarian uses are desired. As Tom
stated, he wouldn't ride a COYOTE in the snow or ice and who would blame him, I don't even ride the
COYOTE in the rain unless I get caught out in it. I haven't solved the problems of a fogging
winshield and I don't have fenders so it makes for an unpleasant ride. Those are 2 things easily
fixed, I've just been lazy about doing it. Maybe a realistic wish list of weight, price, number of
wheels, is a good place to start. That might clarify whether it is even possible to build something
for the "masses". Mountain bikes had to take baby steps to get where they are now and so will
streamliners. The COYOTE is unusual cuz speedy hit the "great design nail on the head" when he
dreamed it up. It would be hard to improve it much except to lower the price of building it,plus
it's only the speedster version of an HPV and that's just one end of the spectrum. The one thing I
do know for certain is that the COYOTE has givin me a once in a lifetime opportunity to experience
biking on a level that VERY few people have had. I feel like it is my duty to do whatever I can to
promote interest in streamliners as I feel they represent the future of biking. I would also like to
express my deepest appreciation to Speedy and to Gardener Martin for making the COYOTE possible.
Being able to ride the COYOTE has been the most fun thing I have ever done!!!!!!!!

S. Delaire \'Rotatorrecumbent\ said:

we have a solid pro level bike club in town and hills as steep as 21% , many tour riders come here
to train. I haven't seen anyone make any major time on dogboy on any climbs Coyote is 45 pounds he
usually stays right on their heels going up (a mind game he plays on them) and then coasts away on
the other side. local guys all know his abilities which is why dogboy is so frustrated, no one to
play with any more. Someday others will see and understand

Speedy,

I can certainly believe that a strong rider on a streamliner could stay with upright on reasonably
steep grades (such as those on major highways), since the aerodynamic drag on an upright rider in a
climbing position is very high. Going fast enough on a 45 pound bike on a 21% grade for
aerodynamics to make a significant difference does not seem within the possibility of most (all?)
riders, however.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

Tom Perhaps that's true. Dogboy is "above average" in power and handling skills. But not a pro or
paid cyclist. Smoothest person I've ever ridden with on a tandem. Bike is pretty damn fast too.
Makes for a "hard to beat" combination. You would benefit from a good streamlined bike just as much
as Dogboy does. That is if you like to be the first in on the local club rides, or pass pacelines,
or scream down hills.....change Clark Kent into Superman Which I think, is his main point Speedy

Tom Sherman said:

S. Delaire \'Rotatorrecumbent\ said:

we have a solid pro level bike club in town and hills as steep as 21% , many tour riders come
here to train. I haven't seen anyone make any major time on dogboy on any climbs Coyote is 45
pounds he usually stays right on their heels going up (a mind game he plays on them) and then
coasts away on the other side. local guys all know his abilities which is why dogboy is so
frustrated, no one to play with any more. Someday others will see and understand

Speedy,

I can certainly believe that a strong rider on a streamliner could stay with upright on reasonably
steep grades (such as those on major highways), since the aerodynamic drag on an upright rider in
a climbing position is very high. Going fast enough on a 45 pound bike on a 21% grade for
aerodynamics to make a significant difference does not seem within the possibility of most (all?)
riders, however.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

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"S. Delaire \"Rotatorrecumbent\"" <[email hidden]> wrote:
: A Lietra or a Go-One3 are nice to look at but will never match the performance of a Coyote Three
: wheelers, in general, are a hard way to go fast. aerodynamics is key and a trike platform
: struggles in that area.

Leitra and Go-one probably aren't the fastest trikes around. If you want speed, you must develop the
design to be really aerodynamic and fast. Go for something like the Quest or the Wav: faster
(probably) than partially faired two-wheelers, with still some practicality left which you could
sacrifice for speed... Not to mention trikes won't have some issues two-wheeled fully faired
vehicles have.

--
Risto Varanka | helsinki.fihpv.htmlOpen ↗ varis at no spam please iki fi

S. Delaire \'Rotatorrecumbent\ said:

Tom Perhaps that's true. Dogboy is "above average" in power and handling skills. But not a pro
or paid cyclist. Smoothest person I've ever ridden with on a tandem. Bike is pretty damn fast
too. Makes for a "hard to beat" combination. You would benefit from a good streamlined bike
just as much as Dogboy does. That is if you like to be the first in on the local club rides, or
pass pacelines, or scream down hills.....change Clark Kent into Superman Which I think, is his
main point

Speedy,

I have been seriously considering getting a streamliner at some point (maybe a custom titanium alloy
Sunset clone as a chassis built by someone such as you).

However, I see one problem with such a bike - it would be too fast. Club rides would require no real
effort and it would be impossible to ride with others unless they also were riding with a full
fairing. Even my unfaired Sunset is too fast in some situations.

If I get in a situation where I am regularly riding with uprights, I would consider a bike such as
an EZ-1 SC. The speed handicap would make me work harder so I would become a better rider.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

[email hidden] (dogboy) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

This post is for purely selfish reasons. I want to see more streamliners on the road and at the
races! After 13 years of riding a streamliner on the road out west here, I can't help but wonder,
is this the best kept secret in bicycling or am I always gonna be the charter member of the
lunatic fringe. It seems like the midwest streamliner racing is alive and well, but it's dying
here out west. I would like to see more streamliners at the races, but I REALLY want to see more
of them out on the road. Racing is great, but it requires so much organization. My dream would be
to have a dozen or so folks in streamliners, in a pack cruising down the road, but I'm starting to
think that this is not gonna happen in my lifetime.

I have also noticed a number of friends who used to ride bents who gave up and went back to UCI
bikes. I think the maintenance of a streamliner is too much of a hassle for most ordinary folks.
Take cars for example. There are lots of classic car owners who spend years and tens of thousands of
dollars restoring a classic car.There are plenty of car professionals to ask for advice. Very few of
them build their own cars from scratch. The Coyote was made from a mould that someone else made. It
seems to me that we are all making a lot of streamliners with someone elses help. All the fast
streamliners that I own were made in part by someone else. I have never made any fast streamliner by
myself. I have learned the value of using a good streamliner mould and how much time it can save me
to build a vehicle. My big problem building streamliners is I do not know how to design the
aerodynamic shape by myself. The guys on the streamliner list like Matt Weaver make it sound like I
need to know a lot of math and cad. But,Georgiev knows none of that stuff and his streamliners do
pretty well. Anyways, making precise male moulds or plugs takes a lot of time and skill. One way
that streamliners will become popular is if their speed on the road becomes breathtakingly fast. All
the roadworthy streamliners I have seen are only slightly faster that a good cat one racer. I know
we could do much better.

"Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

S. Delaire \'Rotatorrecumbent\ said:

we have a solid pro level bike club in town and hills as steep as 21% ,

many

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tour riders come here to train. I haven't seen anyone make any major time on dogboy on any
climbs Coyote is 45 pounds he usually stays right on their heels going up (a mind game he
plays on

them)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and then coasts away on the other side. local guys all know his abilities which is why dogboy is
so frustrated,

no one

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to play with any more. Someday others will see and understand

Speedy,

I can certainly believe that a strong rider on a streamliner could stay with upright on reasonably
steep grades (such as those on major highways), since the aerodynamic drag on an upright rider in
a climbing position is very high. Going fast enough on a 45 pound bike on a 21% grade for
aerodynamics to make a significant difference does not seem within the possibility of most (all?)
riders, however.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities USA (Illinois side)

I would think the slow speed of the climb wouldn't be enough for any gain by aerodynamics?

Joseph Kochanowski said:

One way that streamliners will become popular is if their speed on the road becomes
breathtakingly fast.

Speed may make streamliners popular with some people, but convenience, versatility, controllability,
and sociability will be just as if not more important to most.

Many people who take up cycling recreationally do so for social reasons, a point not often
considered in discussions of why recumbents with fairings are not more popular. One of the noted
disadvantages of upright bikes, its relatively poor aerodynamics, becomes an enabling feature of
socialization, allowing weaker and stronger cyclists to ride together in groups due to the drafting
opportunities. It's why professional bicycle racing remains an interesting sport. Streamlined
bicycles ride in their own envelope, and unless they are closely matched for power output, a group
of streamlined bicyclists will tend to drift apart and ride at their own pace. This is great fun if
one is out riding by oneself, but it becomes a disadvantage when riding socially.

Joseph Kochanowski <[email hidden]> continues:

Quoted message said:

All the roadworthy streamliners I have seen are only slightly faster than a good cat one racer.

This is too broad a statement to be meaningful. I am certain that on a flat course a given cyclist
with the same power output on both machines will go significantly faster on a roadworthy streamliner
than on an upright bike. The greater the power output, the greater the difference in speed will be.

On an uphill course, the streamliner is likely to be slower, depending on the weight of the
streamliner and the steepness of the grade. This is where streamliners or partially faired bikes are
at a disadvantage: for a given set of wheels, components, and frame, the additional fairing will
always make the whole bike heavier and hence, slower up the hills. (By "hills", I mean climbs higher
than about 100 meters that cannot be "rolled up" by momentum and that are steep enough that most of
the energy directed to forward motion is used to overcome the force of gravity.)

On all but the hilliest courses (>~35m climbing per km ridden) I find I am faster overall on a
partially faired recumbent than I was on my upright bike. I also find I am able to ride longer
distances without stopping, often up to 3 or 4 hours in one sitting. However, I find it difficult to
ride socially with other upright cyclists in similar condition to myself. I may finish the ride at
the same time, but I'll be slower on the uphills and faster on the downhills and flat parts, and I
usually will prefer not to stop frequently.

--
Bill Bushnell

"Mark Leuck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<rE0Ya.50992$cF.18738@rwcrnsc53>... <snip>

Quoted message said:

I would think the slow speed of the climb wouldn't be enough for any gain by aerodynamics?

It depends on what you mean by "slow speed", "climb", and "aerodynamics". There's a paper written by
Daniel Kirchner in a 1985 issue of Bike Tech magazine titled "Aerodynamics versus weight". In it, he
describes a method of calculating the relative value of reduced drag versus greater weight for
various power levels. The formula for determining speed at any one instant has ten variables- to
determine the duration of any ride requires specifying distance, slope, and any stops and starts.

The author compares a conventional upright (25 lbs- 195 lbs with rider) with a faired trike (50 lbs-
220 lbs with rider over a "commuting" route: a couple stops, gentle slopes, modest rider power (100
watts). In this simulation, the faired trike comes out 10% faster.

It may be that in the "real world", streamliners can't use their speed to their advantage- they're
just too fast on downhill slopes.

For instance: I used the HPV speed simulation at recumbents.comHPV Simul.aspOpen ↗
I used a rider power of 200 watts, a vehicle weight of 50 pounds, a rider weight of 170 pounds, a
CdA of .055 (the Barracuda streamliner) and an altitude of 2,000 feet *and* a slope 5 percent. The
calculations show that the vehicle is doing close to 85 miles per hour at the end of a 5 minute
descent. The ascent tops out at 8 miles per hour. There's plenty of rides around here that allow an
8 mph uphill- but 85 mph going back down? *I* would be riding the brakes all the way.

Jeff

(Jeff Wills) said:

calculations show that the vehicle is doing close to 85 miles per hour at the end of a 5 minute
descent. The ascent tops out at 8 miles per hour. There's plenty of rides around here that allow
an 8 mph uphill- but 85 mph going back down? *I* would be riding the brakes all the way.

And even if you are brave/crazy enough to scream downhill at 85mph, you're still at a disadvantage
to somebody who can keep a higher sustained speed.

Let's say we use those figures for a 1 mile climb followed by a 1 mile descent, and assume the
average speed is actually half the maximum speed. In other words I'm assuming the uphill AND
downhill runs start at 0mph and increase linearly to the maximum speed. (Or, more realistically, the
uphill speed starts at the maximum and peters out to zero at the top!!) Not very precise, but close
enough for discussion.

Going uphill takes the streamliner 1 mile / 4mph = 0.25 hour = 15mins. On the downhill run it's 1 mi
/ 42.5mph = 0.02353 hour = 1.41mins = 85 sec. So you go 2 miles in 16 mins 25 secs. Your *average*
speed is only 7.31 mph, because you spend so little time going 85mph. That's the killer.

Now let's say you have an upright rider who can stand on the pedals and maintain a decent speed
uphill, but can only do 30mph on the downhill. Even if we assume he only averages 15mph downhill, it
still only takes him 1 mi / 15mph = 0.0667 hour = 4 minutes to go downhill. If he can get uphill in
anything under 12 mins 25 sec, he will beat the streamliner to the end of the downhill run. That's
an average speed of 1 mi / 12.41 mins
= 4.83 mph, or a max of 9.67 mph on the uphill stretch.

So even though the streamliner's max downhill speed is 2.8x faster than the upright's, the upright
only has to go 21% faster on the uphill run to beat the streamliner's time.

Personally I think an upright cyclist beating a streamliner by 21% going uphill is a lot more likely
than the streamliner going 85mph OR the upright cyclist going 30mph on the downhill.

And that's assuming the poor guy in the streamliner doesn't die of heat stroke while he's churning
away on the 15min uphill grind. :-)

Gary