Stopping quickly with a fixed gear without doing a header

Peter said:

Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
onto a one way arterial road.

You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just about lifts
off. This is the shortest that you can stop any bike of normal
geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.

The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give you a better
feel for what's happening to rear wheel traction than you'll get with a
coastie.

That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on slippery surfaces.

Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a tiny bit. When
this happens, you know you've found the "sweet spot" for maximal
braking. This happened to me the other night on a local bike path when
a wild goose tried to cross in front of me...

Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------+
| The wayfarer |
| Perceiving the pathway to truth, |
| Was struck with astonishment. |
| It was thickly grown with weeds. |
| "Ha," he said, |
| "I see that none has passed here |
| In a long time." |
| Later he saw that each weed |
| Was a singular knife. |
| "Well," he mumbled at last, |
| "Doubtless there are other roads." |
| --Stephen Crane |
+-----------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Thanks for the fast reply Sheldon. My problem was I was over the bars befor
I fekt anything lifting. Fortunately I landed on my feet. Unfortunately the
dountube on the custom built Cyclops Track frame bent just enough to prevent
the front wheel from traversing when the bars were turned. I was able to
straighten it enough to ride home, very slowly for safeties sake, buy
sitting and bracing my feet against the bb and appliying a steady pulling
pressure on the front wheel. I swear that kid was a Kamikaze rider in
training. Either that he had an appointment att the morgue and was hours
late for it!

"Sheldon Brown" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Peter said:

Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand

turn

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

onto a one way arterial road.

You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just about lifts
off. This is the shortest that you can stop any bike of normal
geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.

The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give you a better
feel for what's happening to rear wheel traction than you'll get with a
coastie.

That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on slippery surfaces.

Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a tiny bit. When
this happens, you know you've found the "sweet spot" for maximal
braking. This happened to me the other night on a local bike path when
a wild goose tried to cross in front of me...

Sheldon "http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------+
| The wayfarer |
| Perceiving the pathway to truth, |
| Was struck with astonishment. |
| It was thickly grown with weeds. |
| "Ha," he said, |
| "I see that none has passed here |
| In a long time." |
| Later he saw that each weed |
| Was a singular knife. |
| "Well," he mumbled at last, |
| "Doubtless there are other roads." |
| --Stephen Crane |
+-----------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Peter said:

Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
onto a one way arterial road.

Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as possible. The
front wheel can be skidded without you going over the bars.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Sheldon Brown said:

Peter said:

Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
onto a one way arterial road.

You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just about lifts
off. This is the shortest that you can stop any bike of normal
geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.

The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give you a better
feel for what's happening to rear wheel traction than you'll get with a
coastie.

That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on slippery surfaces.

Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a tiny bit.

This is a good thing?? Sounds like a lot of risk when one can
simply install a rear caliper. When braking you want maximum
friction against the road. When the wheel lifts off, you get zero
friction against the road, and the braking power of your feet on the
cranks is likewise zero.

Peter said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
onto a one way arterial road.

I replied:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You apply the front brake so hard that the rear wheel just about lifts
off. This is the shortest that you can stop any bike of normal
geometry, fixed gear _or_ coastie.

The advantage of a fixie for this is that the pedals give you a better
feel for what's happening to rear wheel traction than you'll get with a
coastie.

That's the reason fixers are better in traffic and on slippery surfaces.

Sometimes you might actually lift the rear wheel off a tiny bit.

Paul Southworth said:

This is a good thing?? Sounds like a lot of risk when one can
simply install a rear caliper.

That won't help you stop any faster.

Quoted message said:

When braking you want maximum
friction against the road. When the wheel lifts off, you get zero
friction against the road, and the braking power of your feet on the
cranks is likewise zero.

Right, and a rear caliper is equally useless when you're applying
maximal braking, for the same reason.

This is explained in detail at http://sheldonbrown.com/brakturn

Sheldon "Stop!" Brown
+------------------------------------------------------+
| A billion here, a couple of billion there -- |
| first thing you know it adds up to be real money. |
| --Sen. Everett McKinley Dirksen |
+------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Zog The Undeniable said:

Peter said:

Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over
the handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left
hand turn onto a one way arterial road.

Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as possible. The
front wheel can be skidded without you going over the bars.

Mine can't -- at least, not on clean dry asphalt. If it could, I'd be very
hesitant to brake in this fashion. I can controllably lift my rear wheel
by braking, but I doubt I could control anything if the front wheel started
to skid.

--
Benjamin Lewis

A small, but vocal, contingent even argues that tin is superior, but they
are held by most to be the lunatic fringe of Foil Deflector Beanie science.

Benjamin Lewis said:

I wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as possible. The
front wheel can be skidded without you going over the bars.

Mine can't -- at least, not on clean dry asphalt. If it could, I'd be very
hesitant to brake in this fashion. I can controllably lift my rear wheel
by braking, but I doubt I could control anything if the front wheel started
to skid.

I did it the other week coming down a 25% hill. You just release the
brake a bit when you hear the tyre skidding. In this case the asphalt
was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've also done it on
completely clean dry asphalt and on wet smooth asphalt. Grabbing a
really big handful of brake in a panic can make the front wheel break
loose, and sliding friction is less than static friction so it's quite
possible to keep going with both wheels locked (my record is at least 20
yards, with no crashes yet). It doesn't do much for bike control, but
does prove the point that gyroscopic forces have little to do with
keeping a bike upright. I've heard that in some countries where lakes
freeze over all winter, it's considered a mildly diverting challenge to
ride on the ice with the front brake firmly locked.

The point is that no experienced cyclist should ever go over the bars
just by using the front brake.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Benjamin Lewis said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

Peter said:

Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over
the handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left
hand turn onto a one way arterial road.

Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as possible. The
front wheel can be skidded without you going over the bars.

Mine can't -- at least, not on clean dry asphalt. If it could, I'd be very
hesitant to brake in this fashion. I can controllably lift my rear wheel
by braking, but I doubt I could control anything if the front wheel started
to skid.

Practice, practice. You haven't lived until you've slid the front wheel
of a motorcycle. Which I have done, and which I have sometimes done
without falling down.

This is one of those skills that's best acquired by just going out and
bombing around on the trails for a while with a mountain bike. Heck, go
out on a road bike and you'll have a chance to slide your front tire
like crazy!

everything in modulation,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine/wiredcola/
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

RE/

Quoted message said:

This happened to me the other night on a local bike path when
a wild goose tried to cross in front of me...

BTW: Don't mess with Mother Goose. (or maybe Father Goose...)

A year or two ago I was crossing a large blacktop parking area when a Canada
goose started that head-bobbing, hissing thing. I started to go wide around
it, but the thing ran over to continue the confrontation.

Thunk I "Geeze, it's just a fushluggener *goose*...We *eat* geese around here.
Outta my way you dumb bird!"... and I charged.

Beeg mistake.

Got by the thing, then saw it take off in the other direction out of the corner
of my eye. Then it did a 180 and came at me from behind at head level
pecking, biting, and beating on me with it's wings.... Was *really* glad I had a
helmet on. Got a few superficial cuts and some nice bruises on my shoulder
blades out of it.

Found out later that one of those things can break your arm. Something called a
"baton fracture" - as from a cop's club....lots of force applied to a very small
area by the bone along the leading edge of the wing.
--
PeteCresswell

Peter said:

Thanks for the fast reply Sheldon. My problem was I was over the
bars befor I fekt anything lifting. Fortunately I landed on my
feet. Unfortunately the dountube on the custom built Cyclops Track
frame bent just enough to prevent the front wheel from traversing
when the bars were turned. I was able to straighten it enough to
ride home, very slowly for safeties sake, buy sitting and bracing my
feet against the bb and appliying a steady pulling pressure on the
front wheel. I swear that kid was a Kamikaze rider in
training. Either that he had an appointment att the morgue and was
hours late for it!

I don't get what happened. Are you saying you braked so hard that
you bent the downtube? Or did you run into something?

Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<40869bbb.0@entanet>...

Quoted message said:

Peter said:

Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how you
stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn
onto a one way arterial road.

Push your bum back off the saddle and brake as hard as possible. The
front wheel can be skidded without you going over the bars.

What's the point of getting the front tire to skid? If it's skidding,
you'd still benefit from having a rear brake for additional braking.

In real world situations, I can't envision braking just hard enough
that the rear wheel is about to lift off the ground (but no more)
intentionally and controllably. Such situations where one *must* stop
that quickly usually seem to happen much too suddenly to brake in such
a controlled manner.

papercut wrote in part:

<< In real world situations, I can't envision braking just hard enough
that the rear wheel is about to lift off the ground (but no more)
intentionally and controllably. Such situations where one *must* stop
that quickly usually seem to happen much too suddenly to brake in such
a controlled manner. >>

A real panic stop might be controlled, but the control is certainly
not derived from some recognizable thought process--"I feel my
back wheel losing traction so I let up on the front brake, then I..."
--no. That aint a panic stop. The real panic stop occurs without the
benefit of such conscious problem-solving and is an artful
combo of two things: (1) an exaggerated, athletic body movement,
and (2) the application of a smooth gradient of force in braking over
a very short period of time (i.e. modulation as opposed to just
slamming on the brakes). The moment comes on so quick there is
no way to mechanically think it through. Any control in that
situation is derived from athletic ability and handling skills that are
learned early in life and practiced over decades.

Robert

Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]> wrote about skidding the front wheel:

Quoted message said:

was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've also done it on
completely clean dry asphalt and on wet smooth asphalt. Grabbing a

You're lying.

Vrishni Vibhuti said:

Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]> wrote about skidding the
front wheel:

Quoted message said:

was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've also done it
on completely clean dry asphalt and on wet smooth asphalt. Grabbing
a

You're lying.

But, but...he's undeniable!

Bill "skid around THAT" S.

(papercut) said:

In real world situations, I can't envision braking just hard enough
that the rear wheel is about to lift off the ground (but no more)
intentionally and controllably. Such situations where one *must* stop
that quickly usually seem to happen much too suddenly to brake in such
a controlled manner.

It's not hard. Your mind (should) speed up to process emergencies
like that, at least at an unconscious level. When I was test-riding
the road bike that I later bought, I was going downhill doing
probably 30 or 35 mph when a car pulled out of a sidestreet very
fast; I braked so hard that the rear of the bike got very squirrely.

I know the bike had more brake available, and I know I was panicked,
but something deep in my usually slow-thinking* brain was up to the
task of limiting my brake force when I felt the rear unweight.

* Slow, but deep thought 😉
--
Rick Onanian

prekow-<< Hi fellows. I was wondering if you fixed gear riders can tell me how
you
stop your bikes in a panic situation without launching yourselves over the
handlebars as once happened to me when a kid made an illegal left hand turn

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Butt way back(over the end of the saddle), lots of brake and use der legs to
stop, trackie style...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Rick Onanian said:

(papercut) said:

In real world situations, I can't envision braking just hard enough
that the rear wheel is about to lift off the ground (but no more)
intentionally and controllably. Such situations where one *must* stop
that quickly usually seem to happen much too suddenly to brake in such
a controlled manner.

It's not hard. Your mind (should) speed up to process emergencies
like that, at least at an unconscious level. When I was test-riding
the road bike that I later bought, I was going downhill doing
probably 30 or 35 mph when a car pulled out of a sidestreet very
fast; I braked so hard that the rear of the bike got very squirrely.

I know the bike had more brake available, and I know I was panicked,
but something deep in my usually slow-thinking* brain was up to the
task of limiting my brake force when I felt the rear unweight.

* Slow, but deep thought 😉

I have a lot of that... ;-)

I think the ability to brake at the threshold is one that you develop
by doing it (it's a good idea to practice - you don't want your first
maximal braking stop to be one that is necessary to keep you from
having dental reconstructive surgery). The more you do it, the more
it becomes a kind of "muscle memory" thing - you'll do it
instinctively without contemplating (slowly and deeply) the relative
altitude of your rear wheel. I'll regularly slide back off the saddle
and brake at the last possible moment at red lights or stop signs to
"keep the feeling fresh".

I've found that riding off-road (especially in steep terrain) makes it
easier to practice this skill. There was one hill I would regularly
lift my rear wheel on, setting up for a tight corner. I never went
into the corner thinking "I think I'll lift my rear wheel", but just
learned to delay braking to the point that's what was necessary to
make the corner.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

"Vrishni Vibhuti" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]> wrote about skidding the front

wheel:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've also done it on
completely clean dry asphalt and on wet smooth asphalt. Grabbing a

You're lying.

Why is he lying? Just because you don't know how to get far enough back on
the bike to do it?

Greg

G. T. said:

Vrishni Vibhuti said:

Zog The Undeniable <[email hidden]> wrote about skidding the front

wheel:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was dry but there was a bit of loose grit on it. I've also done it on
completely clean dry asphalt and on wet smooth asphalt. Grabbing a

You're lying.

Why is he lying? Just because you don't know how to get far enough back
on the bike to do it?

I can't do it even with well loaded rear panniers, even though this gives
me a much lower centre of gravity than is achievable by moving back off the
saddle.

I don't think this means he was lying, though -- especially since I know
nothing about his bike. I just know that for me, on any of my bikes,
geometry rather than traction is always the limiting factor on non-slippery
surfaces.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber