Steps per breath

Quoted message said:

You dumbass. It doesn't mean anything. You dint specify what elevation
you were running and what speed you were running and whether you
suffer from ashthma.

What about calculating the drag from my massive penis trailing behind as I run?

Quoted message said:

4 or 5 per breath in or breath out or a complete cycle?

complete cycle

Quoted message said:

Can anyone spot Lyndon here? :->

He's the one in the far right-hand corner, the one on his knees...

Quoted message said:

Gay man's paradise! Where was this race?

Making next years vacation plans to early Jackoff?

Lumber Jack said:

Gay man's paradise! Where was this race?

No idea. Just one of those emails whizzing eternally around the Internet
from office to office.

Quoted message said:

No idea. Just one of those emails whizzing eternally around the Internet
from office to office.

I'm not sure what kind of "office" you work in, but I never saw any like that
circulating in mine. Ours were of FEMALES. Frikin homos...

(TheBillRodgerz) said:

Frikin homos...

Runners. Says it all really dunt it? :-P

"steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Lyndon) said:

You guys are OLD. I'd much rather run barefoot at the beach with or
without a
watch and count BABES.

Can anyone spot Lyndon here? :->
http://running.steve.free.fr/beach_race.jpg

He is the one dressing left.
-DF

Folklore on Breathing: Addressing Myself With Gratitude to Oxygen
c.2001 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D.

The following are my thoughts to myself. They just so happened to be
stimulated by the words of others on this topic of Breathing.

My Assumptions on breathing:

1. During each breathing cycle (inhalation/exhalation) I am filling my
lungs to the maximum capacity I can and then emptying my lungs to the
greatest amount I can - all without any undue stress or strain on my
breathing. Maximum volume exchange no matter what the frequency of
inhalation/exhalation in relation to my steps.

1a. My steps become the metronome for my breathing.

1b. It's not a matter of getting air in. It's a matter of getting all
the air out. People in panic attacks and sobbing uncontrollably are so
focused on gasping air in that they are not able to get enough air out
to relax a breath of air in.

2. I have found that exhaling to the maximum I can without discomfort
creates in my mind's eye a vacuum so that inhaling becomes minimal
effort as I am taking advantage of air pressure (psi) and a contracting
diaphragm. Seldom, if ever is my inhalation greater than my exhalation.
GAPO Principle: Get it all out/relax in for as long as comfortable.

2a. I always focus on the exhalation and relax on the inhalation. Once
I get all the air out, it's easy to get max inhale in one or two steps.
Since I am running in an ocean of air as opposed to water, I can relax
and take an inhalation in 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 steps depending on my
running intensity.

2b. On exhalation I use a slight pursed lip: like blowing out a candle
but just to make the wick flicker.

3. I equate my air intake as the delivery system to bring more oxygen
to my blood and then muscles and brain so that I experience minimal
oxygen debt.

3a. I am using the minimal cycle of breathing to get the oxygen I need
to my running body. At a slower speed, a longer cycle. At a faster
speed, a shorter cycle.

4. What would be hyperventilating at a 2-2 or 1-1 pattern on level
ground at a 10 minute pace for a well trained athlete used to a 4-4 or
8-4 pattern would maintain status quo and diminish oxygen debt running
up the steps at Pike's Peak steps with a 3000 foot elevation in about a
mile.

5. My idea is to deliver the air I need with minimal effort. The
reason I practice the various patterns is to keep my mind calm, knowing
I can always increase the amount of oxygen to my system by increasing
the breathing cycles while maintaining the same cadence.

6. When speeding up, I maintain the same cadence (meaning I have to
bring my leg thought the stride cycle faster to get it down to maintain
the cadence). I will adjust my breath to a shortened cycle of
exhalation/inhalation in preparing for the energy expenditure, meaning
need for more oxygen. Through playing with the breathing patterns I can
take the cycle from a 3out/2in, to a 2out/2in, to a 2out/1in, to a
1out/1in. I am in control. I start my shortened breath cycle before
and in anticipation of the increased expenditure of energy.

7. When coming off a high exertion phase of breathing I reverse the
process as the intensity diminishes (crested the hill or slowing the
surge back to normal running pace). I'll stay at 1out/1in to get back
faster to status quo rather. Then I'll go to 2out/1in the 2out/2in,
then 3out/2in, then 3out/3in, and then back to my regular 4out/4in.
Get as much oxygen rich blood to the muscles and bathe the brain in
oxygen to keep in calm and diminish any anxiety that might cause
unnecessary muscle tension in parts of the running body.

8. As a musician for years, I know rhythm. My steps and my breath
create my own music. The more calm I am, the further or faster I can
go with the least amount of unnecessary expended energy. GAPO
Principle: Running is a Dance. You can do it gracefully or clumsily.
Go for the grace!

9. I keep playing with breath. I've done rapid breathing for 2 to 3
hours at a time while laying down to create a trance state a la
Stanislav Grof's non-ordinary states of consciousness. Because of all
my running and breathing training over the years, my endurance
continued through the moments of fear, anxiety, and panic. I didn't
black out, I didn't faint, I just kept breathing. More often than not,
only after the experience did the emotions well up.

10. I've played with all the breathing patterns so that I don't have to
think about them when I run. GAPO: When the lesson is learned, there
is no need to talk about it.

Folklore on Breathing: Addressing Myself With Gratitude to Oxygen
c.2001 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D.

The following are my thoughts to myself. They just so happened to be
stimulated by the words of others on this topic of Breathing.

My Assumptions on breathing:

1. During each breathing cycle (inhalation/exhalation) I am filling my
lungs to the maximum capacity I can and then emptying my lungs to the
greatest amount I can - all without any undue stress or strain on my
breathing. Maximum volume exchange no matter what the frequency of
inhalation/exhalation in relation to my steps.

1a. My steps become the metronome for my breathing.

1b. It's not a matter of getting air in. It's a matter of getting all
the air out. People in panic attacks and sobbing uncontrollably are so
focused on gasping air in that they are not able to get enough air out
to relax a breath of air in.

2. I have found that exhaling to the maximum I can without discomfort
creates in my mind's eye a vacuum so that inhaling becomes minimal
effort as I am taking advantage of air pressure (psi) and a contracting
diaphragm. Seldom, if ever is my inhalation greater than my exhalation.
GAPO Principle: Get it all out/relax in for as long as comfortable.

2a. I always focus on the exhalation and relax on the inhalation. Once
I get all the air out, it's easy to get max inhale in one or two steps.
Since I am running in an ocean of air as opposed to water, I can relax
and take an inhalation in 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 steps depending on my
running intensity.

2b. On exhalation I use a slight pursed lip: like blowing out a candle
but just to make the wick flicker.

3. I equate my air intake as the delivery system to bring more oxygen
to my blood and then muscles and brain so that I experience minimal
oxygen debt.

3a. I am using the minimal cycle of breathing to get the oxygen I need
to my running body. At a slower speed, a longer cycle. At a faster
speed, a shorter cycle.

4. What would be hyperventilating at a 2-2 or 1-1 pattern on level
ground at a 10 minute pace for a well trained athlete used to a 4-4 or
8-4 pattern would maintain status quo and diminish oxygen debt running
up the steps at Pike's Peak steps with a 3000 foot elevation in about a
mile.

5. My idea is to deliver the air I need with minimal effort. The
reason I practice the various patterns is to keep my mind calm, knowing
I can always increase the amount of oxygen to my system by increasing
the breathing cycles while maintaining the same cadence.

6. When speeding up, I maintain the same cadence (meaning I have to
bring my leg thought the stride cycle faster to get it down to maintain
the cadence). I will adjust my breath to a shortened cycle of
exhalation/inhalation in preparing for the energy expenditure, meaning
need for more oxygen. Through playing with the breathing patterns I can
take the cycle from a 3out/2in, to a 2out/2in, to a 2out/1in, to a
1out/1in. I am in control. I start my shortened breath cycle before
and in anticipation of the increased expenditure of energy.

7. When coming off a high exertion phase of breathing I reverse the
process as the intensity diminishes (crested the hill or slowing the
surge back to normal running pace). I'll stay at 1out/1in to get back
faster to status quo rather. Then I'll go to 2out/1in the 2out/2in,
then 3out/2in, then 3out/3in, and then back to my regular 4out/4in.
Get as much oxygen rich blood to the muscles and bathe the brain in
oxygen to keep in calm and diminish any anxiety that might cause
unnecessary muscle tension in parts of the running body.

8. As a musician for years, I know rhythm. My steps and my breath
create my own music. The more calm I am, the further or faster I can
go with the least amount of unnecessary expended energy. GAPO
Principle: Running is a Dance. You can do it gracefully or clumsily.
Go for the grace!

9. I keep playing with breath. I've done rapid breathing for 2 to 3
hours at a time while laying down to create a trance state a la
Stanislav Grof's non-ordinary states of consciousness. Because of all
my running and breathing training over the years, my endurance
continued through the moments of fear, anxiety, and panic. I didn't
black out, I didn't faint, I just kept breathing. More often than not,
only after the experience did the emotions well up.

10. I've played with all the breathing patterns so that I don't have to
think about them when I run. GAPO: When the lesson is learned, there
is no need to talk about it.

This was developed and written in the late 90's.

Once playing with the 180 steps/minute, my breath becomes the
supercharger to get more oxygen to my running body and brain as my
speed increases. With more oxygen required for the work load created
by increasing one's speed while maintaining a constant cadence, the
breathe cycle decreases with speed always with the intention of keeping
the brain and body supplied with the oxygen to keep the body moving at
the speed it is going and also to keep the brain from going into O2
debt and going into panic...which is a waste of energy and creaes
unnecessary muscle tension.

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Mindful Running:
http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

Arthur Dent said:

I've been experimenting on recent long runs with different ways to keep
from going too fast too early, which invariably causes me to run much
slower at the end.

My breathing experiment seemed to be quite successful. On my last long
run, an 18-miler, I consciously held myself to a 4-in, 4-out pattern for
the first 6 miles. By only running as fast as I could comfortably run with
this pattern, my pace was a nice and slow 8-8.5 minutes/mile (MPM).
Then, at the 6-mile mark, I shifted to a 3-in, 4-out pattern for 3 miles.
And, at 9 miles, I shifted to a 3-in, 3-out for the next 4 miles. By this
point, I was doing a steady 8 MPM. At mile 13, I shifted to 2-in,
3-out and, finally, for the last 3 miles, I kicked it into high gear
(i.e., 2-in, 2-out) and slowly accelerated to my hoped-for marathon
race pace, doing my last mile in 7:23. It was a good feeling to know
that I could run a 7:23 mile, without killing myself, after having
already run 17 miles (and this was my first time running the 18-mile
distance!). All-in-all, I averaged 8 MPM, with first mile being 8:13,
then gradually slowing to 8:40 at mile 6, then gradually speeding up as
I moved to faster breathing patterns. Is this a good long-run pace for
someone hoping to do a marathon at 7:20 pace?

Does anyone else use this technique? And what about for the race
itself? For the race itself, I'd like to do the first few miles at
7:50 pace, then accelerate to 7:20 by maybe the 4-5 mile mark,
maintaining 7:20 until the half, then pushing to 7:15 to make up for
the early slowness, and, finally, for the last few miles just hoping to
hold onto 7:20....

I think that I can do the above negative splitting by consciously
constraining myself to slower breathing patterns at the start, but is
this an inefficient way to control pace? Would I be better off if I
could hold the desired pace while freely allowing myself to move to
faster breathing patterns? Or does consciously sticking to slower
breathing patterns at the start have the favorable effect of not only
limiting pace, but also of speeding the transition from
glycogen-burning to fat-burning? Does it take more oxygen to burn
glycogen than it does to burn fat? AD

Arthur,

A man after my own lungs. Here's a post that I have grown into what I
call Breathing Rhythms and Patterns. Hopefully helping to increase
your own folklore on breathing. As you allude to, the breathing
becomes the gears to keep fueling the body with enough O2 to keep the
body metabolizing its stores of energy.

Breathing Rhythms & Patterns
c.1999, 2000 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D.

Next to proper running form and style and an integral part of proper
running is breathing and the rhythms of breath.

Once good running form is achieved one can keep the same cadence and be
running 30 seconds to 2+ minutes a mile faster. The issue is getting
the leg through its cycle to touch the ground maintaining the same
cadence. This is where the concept of running is falling and catching
oneself gracefully comes into play.

To that end, breathing becomes the next important factor in maintaining
an oxygen uptake to support the increased speed while maintaining the
same cadence turnover.

This is where I teach breathing at slower speeds to a 4 steps in and 4
to 8 steps out. The idea is that I am never panicked and that my
breathing sequences are always enough to sustain the rate of
turnover...which maintains at the same cadence be it a 9 or 10 minute
mile or a 5 minute or better mile. For the young and for top runners,
most never think about breathing. However thinking about breathing
patterns and rhythms and practicing them will allow someone who has
played with or practiced them a possible advantage if it allows them to
stayed relaxed, concentrated and focused under extreme stress.

So running slow, I do a 4 in and 6 or 8..
Then as I need more air because of increased speed while maintaining
the constant cadence (optimum assumption is around 180 steps/minute)
I work down to a shorter breathing cycle so my body and brain are being
supplied with the necessary oxygen to continue without going into
oxyten debt. This is the way I've developed a shorter breathing
cycle: Going from slow pace (same cadence) to fast pace (same cadence)
I start at the top and go to a shorter breathing cycle as needed to
sustain a relaxed and smooth running form and to keep aerobic:

4in/8out; 1 cycle of air every 12 steps 2 cycles every 24 steps
4in/7out; 1 cycle of air every 11 steps
4in/6out; 1 cycle of air every 10 steps
4in/5out; 1 cycle of air every 9 steps
4in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 8 steps 3 cycles every 24 steps
3in/4out; 1 cycle of air every 7 steps
3in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 6 steps 4 cycles every 24 steps
2in/3out; 1 cycle of air every 5 steps
2in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 4 steps 6 cycles every 24 steps
1in/2out; 1 cycle of air every 3 steps 8 cycles every 24 steps
1in/1out/1in/1out/2in/2out 9 cycles every 24 steps
1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out/1in/1out 12 cycles every 24 steps

The ideal one goes for is the same volume of air exchanged at all
rhythms. Remember you're always breathing though the nose even when the
mouth is open...unless your nose is blocked, i.e. nasal congestion.

All of these patterns are breathed at a rate so that the mind stays
calm and does not let any of the body unnecessarily tighten up from a
perceived stress beyond one's capability.

The other aspect of breathing cycles is that an even (symmetric)
breathing pattern, which means when the steps in & steps out total an
even number, the runner is always running on the same foot at intake
and also at exhale.

With an odd (asymmetric) breathing pattern, which means when the steps
in & steps out total an odd number, the runner is running off the
opposite foot at initial intake step of each breathing cycle
in-three-steps/out-four-steps; in-three-steps/out-four-steps:

in-two-three out-two-three-four in-two-three out-two-three-four
LFT-2 - 3-- RT -two-three-four RT-two-three LFT-two-three-four
LFT-two-three...
L 2 3 4 5 6 7 R 2 3 4 5 6 7
L 2 3...

In animals there is a breathing pattern which is called phase locking.
It has been photographed at high speeds in horses, cheetahs, ostriches
where at full speed there is one pattern into which they fall. In
humans, if I remember from the research, there were found two phase
lock patterns at top speed.

So you can see if you breathe 2in/2out all the time and we speed up you
can only continue to do what you do. You only get 6 cycles of air
every 24 steps. Whereas I can pick up the speed and get 8 cycles or
even 9 cycles of air every 24 steps...and if I practice I can get 10 or
12 cycles every 24 steps.

You may begin to realize that running a marathon during the later part
of the run from 15 onwards is a matter of running in a trance state.
It is through these breathing patterns I have taught people to play
with the rhythms of their breath to keep on going. So for someone
whose muscles are glycogen depleted I need to maintain the same running
pace but increase the amount of oxygen to those muscles...and that is
where the breathing patterns come in.

Some people begin to realize the power of rhythm. When I run with a
partner and we are doing symmetric breathing of 2in/2out or 3in/3out or
4in/4out, I do reciprocal breathing so that after 3 or 4 minutes as
they breathe out I am breathing in and as they breathe in I am
breathing out. The sound can be heard. The experience is that the
other person's out breath is breathing me. On the next cycle my out
breath is breathing his/her in breath.

Eyes on the horizon, breathing reciprocally with my partner, the miles
covered in trance are an experience to remember.

When into the breathing and at different breathing patterns both
symmetric and asymmetric and some being reciprocal, the breathing
patterns of 3 or 4 or 5 of us mixed with the foot touch (rather than
foot fall) can carry a group of runners easily for miles where the mind
scans the body to relax any tension as it arises and lets it go...going
back to the sound of the feet running together and the breathe of the
pack. If you've seen Stomp you know the power of rhythm!

Quoted message said:

Runners. Says it all really dunt it? :-P

Yep.

X-No-Archive: yes
[email hidden] (TheBillRodgerz) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4 or 5 per breath in or breath out or a complete cycle?

complete cycle

You mean 28 days?

MWL

------------

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug Freese

Quoted message said:

Breathing is an involuntary act and I'm enjoying that fact.

It also can be voluntary. Yogis, meditators, stress management,
mindful calming of one's thoughts through breathing. As a voluntary
act one can train right breathing and use of one's full lung capacity.

In health and on the run,
Ozzie Gontang
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/running-faq/
Mindful Running:
http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.asp

Ozzie Gontang said:

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug Freese

Quoted message said:

Breathing is an involuntary act and I'm enjoying that fact.

It also can be voluntary. Yogis, meditators, stress management,
mindful calming of one's thoughts through breathing. As a voluntary
act one can train right breathing and use of one's full lung capacity.

But how do you actually count breaths without altering the breathing -
and still remain upright and vertical on trails without tripping and
staying below LT and watch out for cow/calf moose? Maybe my brain just
has a limited capacity to do multlipe things - if I'm running and
watching effort level and footing, maybe I don't have enough brain
capacity left over to count 🙁 I've tried it - and end up holding my
breath.

Dot

--
"You try to slow down and enjoy it. You try to look at the scenery. But
your brain can kind of go blank. All you want to do is tell your feet to
keep working."
-Cedar Petrosius, women's winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi,
9000ft up and down)

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ozzie Gontang said:

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug
Freese

Quoted message said:

Breathing is an involuntary act and I'm enjoying that fact.

It also can be voluntary. Yogis, meditators, stress management,
mindful calming of one's thoughts through breathing. As a voluntary
act one can train right breathing and use of one's full lung
capacity.

Sure but you are highlighting things you do while sedate. I'm sure your
suggesting that some of this somehow can apply while exercising.

Quoted message said:

But how do you actually count breaths without altering the breathing -
and still remain upright and vertical on trails without tripping and
staying below LT and watch out for cow/calf moose?

What no grizzly bears?

Quoted message said:

Maybe my brain just has a limited capacity to do multlipe things - if
I'm running and watching effort level and footing, maybe I don't have
enough brain capacity left over to count 🙁 I've tried it - and end
up holding my breath.

I think the goal is to struggle for while until one can get it down
thinking very little about it. I can adjust effort almost effortlessly
while running. I can't convince myself for my races, breathing pattern
would make a difference. I'm running/hiking at maybe 60% MHR and
comfortably breathing.

-DougF

Doug Freese said:

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ozzie Gontang said:

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article <[email hidden]>, Doug
Freese
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>Breathing is an involuntary act and I'm enjoying that fact.

It also can be voluntary. Yogis, meditators, stress management,
mindful calming of one's thoughts through breathing. As a voluntary
act one can train right breathing and use of one's full lung
capacity.

Sure but you are highlighting things you do while sedate. I'm sure your
suggesting that some of this somehow can apply while exercising.

That's the issue I'm seeing also. Some of our drills in xt class involve
breath control, and I've always used breath control for relaxation since
hs. But I don't count breaths when I'm doing it. If I add the other
activities of running in there, I find it difficult to count.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But how do you actually count breaths without altering the breathing -
and still remain upright and vertical on trails without tripping and
staying below LT and watch out for cow/calf moose?

What no grizzly bears?

Those are on the trails I'll do with others 😉
or on the cancelled race trails 🙁

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe my brain just has a limited capacity to do multlipe things - if
I'm running and watching effort level and footing, maybe I don't have
enough brain capacity left over to count 🙁 I've tried it - and end
up holding my breath.

I think the goal is to struggle for while until one can get it down
thinking very little about it. I can adjust effort almost effortlessly
while running.

I was exaggerating a little for this point in time for me, unless
talking about running on rough trail where footing is an issue. In the
past, I've had to constantly watch effort level on those short steep
hills to stay aerobic, but I've improved at hill running sufficiently
(strength, effort awareness) that I've been able to maintain/adjust
effort level with negligible attention this summer (can't quite spring
up them yet, but closer to that than the really tiny steps I need on the
mountain), for the most part. But I still can't count breaths. I was
fartleking the other night and did become aware of my breathing
synchronized with right footfall, but couldn't count breaths without
altering my breathing.

I was surprised how well I did on the 10%, 1.5 mile hill on Sat (3 wks
since end of field season, with almost 1 week being almost too hot and
smoky to run). Walk breaks were for muscles, *not* because I was at too
hard an effort. It was about 10 min run alternate with 1 min walk - but
run part was based on when I thought I needed it (about 12, 9, 9), not
by watch; walk was timed to 1 min. I was eyeing one more break before
the top of the pass, but ran through it since top was just around
corner, then felt no real need to stop at top, except maybe for a
picture. I felt good enough to extend the run to the lake about .5 mi
beyond summit on a gentle downhill. (and yea, it's dirt on the other
side, so next year this area will see more of me) I took this run as a
sign of progress.

But on that same run, I was going to try counting cadence since my
normal hills are too short for that. I think I got to about 5 or 6, and
my mind just went off into the surrounding hills, with fresh snow on the
tops, fall colors, cool temperatures after all the summer heat, clear
blue skies after this week's rains and earlier smoke (forest fires),
berry pickers on the hillsides, pikas chattering at me, gravel roadbed
softened by the rain, etc. Then on the downhills, I got to see all the
mountains spread out before me. Needless to say, I never got as far as
trying to count breaths. Can you say "priceless"? 🙂 Yes, I have
different goals and motivations than other runners here.

Quoted message said:

I can't convince myself for my races, breathing pattern
would make a difference.

I've never seen any journal articles on effects, but I haven't looked
either. Maybe the others do.

Quoted message said:

I'm running/hiking at maybe 60% MHR and
comfortably breathing.

I'm very definitely at conversational effort - can chat with passers by
- but I think I'm usually above 60% just by putting winter layers on 😉
(no, not needing them yet, but thought I'd find them as it's starting to
feel like fall, which lasts 1-2 wks) My small hills I've been doing as
fartleks - topping out just as getting breathless, then maintaining that
effort for the little bit of flat (<1 min) on the ridge before the next
downhill.

Dot

--
"I used to be real gung-ho. Now I try to look at it as a day hike with a
sense of purpose."
-Harlow Robinson, winner 2004 Matanuska Peak Challenge (14mi, 9000ft up
and down)