Standing vs Seated Power

Meek One said:

Disclaimer: This is a max power question, if you don't care about max power please hit "back" now. Thank you.

Now for those that check max power from time to time, how does your standing max compare to your seated max?

Mine is about 10% higher when standing, as can be deduced from the figure here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/setraining/id3.html

The difference above is generally consistent with the published literature, e.g.:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=16230977&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

Also higher, by at least 10%.

I haven't checked, but my gut tells me at least 10% also...

Probably closer to 20%, now that I think on it...

Jim

Likewise, ~10% higher standing.

That's what I was expecting.

Most people I know put out 150-250 watts (or roughly 10-15%) more standing. I, on the other hand, don't. I actually put out slightly more seated. 🙄

While standing, I seem to have difficulty keeping my rear end in a 'fixed' type of position, therefore when I push down hard my [censored] pivots up a little thereby reducing power to the pedals. My guess is that my hips are too far back and I need to get my spine more vertical so the power can be transferred more effectively.

Any other thoughts from the audience? I do plan to get a camera and do some filming.

Meek One said:

While standing, I seem to have difficulty keeping my rear end in a 'fixed' type of position, therefore when I push down hard my [censored] pivots up a little thereby reducing power to the pedals. My guess is that my hips are too far back and I need to get my spine more vertical so the power can be transferred more effectively.

Any other thoughts from the audience?

How is your core?

When I stand and sprint, my whole thought is to slam my foot through the pedal and yank up as hard as I can with my arms.

If your core is weak, I would think that you would "break" in the middle when trying to do something like this...

(edit)Another thought... try to roll/drive your hips forward when doing this...

Jim

otb4evr said:

How is your core?

When I stand and sprint, my whole thought is to slam my foot through the pedal and yank up as hard as I can with my arms.

If your core is weak, I would think that you would "break" in the middle when trying to do something like this...

(edit)Another thought... try to roll/drive your hips forward when doing this...

Jim

I can deadlift raw 400+ so I don't think it's my lack of core strength.

Was there a picture you referring to where it now says 'edit'?

Meek One said:

I can deadlift raw 400+ so I don't think it's my lack of core strength.

Excellent...

Now you know how to drive your hips forward as you drive your legs down...

This would be the same movement as the drive at the top of the lift...

BTW I was an all-american hammer thrower in college, so am quite familiar with power movements in the weight room...

Meek One said:

Was there a picture you referring to where it now says 'edit'?

No pic, just telling you where I started the edit...

Jim

Meek One said:

Any other thoughts from the audience?

You need to pull up and back on the bars in coordination with your pedalling. As each foot comes over the top, the arm on that side pulls up and back. Hands should be in the *drops*.

otb4evr said:

Excellent...

Now you know how to drive your hips forward as you drive your legs down...

This would be the same movement as the drive at the top of the lift...

BTW I was an all-american hammer thrower in college, so am quite familiar with power movements in the weight room...

No pic, just telling you where I started the edit...

Jim

Great. Going to go practice locking out. 😄

Got pics of your hammer throws from back in day?

frenchyge said:

You need to pull up and back on the bars in coordination with your pedalling. As each foot comes over the top, the arm on that side pulls up and back. Hands should be in the *drops*.

Frenchy,

Try this test: Pull with both arms evenly to begin with and as you pick up speed and cadence, the arms will start alternating pulls and the bike will start swaying underneath you...

Jim

frenchyge said:

You need to pull up and back on the bars in coordination with your pedalling. As each foot comes over the top, the arm on that side pulls up and back. Hands should be in the *drops*.

Thanks. Hands are in the drops. Is it actually a real (forceful) pull or a body-stabilizing pull? I ask because I was told by another person to pull evenly with both.

Meek One said:

Great. Going to go practice locking out. 😄

Got pics of your hammer throws from back in day?

No. This was back in the stone ages of the late 80s... 🙂

We actually took some videos, but who knows what happened to them...

Practice doing form sprints and standing starts...

Jim

Meek One said:

Is it actually a real (forceful) pull or a body-stabilizing pull?

A real pull, especially if you're starting in a low-cadence/overgeared situation. Basically, your body weight is on the (downstroke) pedal already from standing, and maybe a bit more if you're pulling up with the other leg. The only way you can get more force on that pedal is by pulling up with your arms, while using your core to transfer that force to the pedal. The harder you pull up, the more you're pushing down on that pedal.

It's no fun if you lose your balance, so start slow and easy until you get the coordination of the movement. Coordination of the pulling becomes harder as the cadence increases, until it almost evolves into a seated sprint by the end. Don't just jump out of the saddle and start yanking on the bars without getting the feel for it first. People are right that you probably will need to pull with both arms initially to help keep things stable.

frenchyge said:

A real pull, especially if you're starting in a low-cadence/overgeared situation. Basically, your body weight is on the (downstroke) pedal already from standing, and maybe a bit more if you're pulling up with the other leg. The only way you can get more force on that pedal is by pulling up with your arms, while using your core to transfer that force to the pedal. The harder you pull up, the more you're pushing down on that pedal.

It's no fun if you lose your balance, so start slow and easy until you get the coordination of the movement. Coordination of the pulling becomes harder as the cadence increases, until it almost evolves into a seated sprint by the end. Don't just jump out of the saddle and start yanking on the bars without getting the feel for it first. People are right that you probably will need to pull with both arms initially to help keep things stable.

Thanks. Hopefully, not too long from now, I will have a new max power number. :p

Lastly, what gear do you think I should practice in?

Meek One said:

I can deadlift raw 400+ so I don't think it's my lack of core strength.

How much do you weigh? What's your 5s max seated so far? How about standing? Was there a time when you weren't gym-fit and were doing max power testing with your powermeter?

I ask because I wonder if my 5-30s power figures would jump if I got back to being able to pull a 400lb deadlift, as I'm guessing I could only do around 200ish right now.

Meek One said:

Lastly, what gear do you think I should practice in?

Someone else suggested standing starts, and I would agree that being overgeared at first will help you get a feel for the pulling action. I'd suggest low-speed rolling starts in a 52x17 or 15.

Meek One said:

Lastly, what gear do you think I should practice in?

I think it depends on your objective. There are two completely different objectives. One objective is NM adaptation and I think one can practice in just about any gear so long as you can subject your muscles to maximum stress for 5-20 secs. I "practice" full power sprints in almost every gear on my bike and under all riding conditions (flat, uphill, downhill, upwind, downwind). The max power I can produce varies quite a bit under the various scenarios, but I think each sprint results in NM adaptation even if I don't hit my max power. A separate objective is to produce peak power and this is very dependent on gearing and conditions. My favorite scenario for this is a standing start on a slight upgrade in a gear that I can get spinning >100rpm within 5 secs.