Standing + Big Gears Always = Knee Problems?

Steve Sr. <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

So, am I doing something wrong? Other folks I ride with, some younger,
some older, don't seem to have a problem standing or pushing bigger
gears.

They probably have stronger leg muscles. If your knees hurt, then your
muscles aren't strong enough for the kind of riding you are trying to do.
You need more base miles to build up your strength.

Doctor doctor! It hurts when I go like this!

Then don't go like that.

Have you had this before?

Well, you have it again.

But, seriously. If this happened to me, I would be making an appointment
with my doctor.

Ken said:

Steve Sr. <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

So, am I doing something wrong? Other folks I ride with, some younger,
some older, don't seem to have a problem standing or pushing bigger
gears.

They probably have stronger leg muscles. If your knees hurt, then your
muscles aren't strong enough for the kind of riding you are trying to do.
You need more base miles to build up your strength.

No smart ass intended here but I do the same at 57 and notice no
difference from standing and attacking or running up several flights of
stairs. I also sometimes just push top gear at a leisurely 16 MPH and
notice no problems except sore leg muscles if I do it for too many
miles. Do you have any arthritis in your family? It ran in my mother's
side yet neither my sister or I have any sign. How old are you, since
that could be a factor, and do you get any regular exercise at work?
Even running from cubicle to cubicle counts.
Bill Baka

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

Before I get to the details let me start by saying that I am in my late
40's. Before anyone suggests bike fit as a cause let me say that the
bike fit is good as evidenced by no knee problems until starting the
above. I have also been riding about 100 miles a week through the winter
so this isn't a spring over doers thing either.

I have recently been trying to increase my strength by pushing hills
while standing and slightly bigger gears sometimes while riding. I have
noticed an increase in strength but unfortunately my knees don't seem
able to take the added stress.

So here I am sitting by the computer with my knee wrapped in an ice
pack. This is probably patellar tendinitis as the pain seems to come
from tendons on the top inside and bottom outside of the kneecap. The
best I can tell is that the knee gets inflamed which then causes tendons
and such to move out of place causing even more problems.

So, am I doing something wrong? Other folks I ride with, some younger,
some older, don't seem to have a problem standing or pushing bigger
gears. Is there anything I can do to solve this or have I been
genetically unlucky and born with bad knees? If not I have probably
reached my cycling limit.

You should probably get lower gears to ease the stress on your
knees. However, I think pushing big gears at low cadences while sitting
is worse than while standing. So if you're having trouble pushing
at least 60-70rpm, get out of the saddle no matter what gear you're in.
Straighten your leg at the top of the stroke, riding the pedal down with a
straight leg, letting your weight do the work. This way you limit the
force on your knees to that of your own weight.

You might be able to work with a physical therapist or personal trainer to
build leg strength through weight training, or a program of short hill
climbs.

Matt O.

There's some other factors that can cause this. Were you warmed up
enough before standing and pushing? Also, was the weather cold? Did
you have something warm over your knees? You're in your late 40s.
Take care of your knees. Don't push too hard. If you're doing 100
mile rides, that in itself could be hard on the knees.

When cooled off, do your knees pop or creak when you stand up? If so,
first I'd try a combination of icing and massaging two or three times a
day. Standing on a pillow on one leg is a good PT exercise. Do other
exercises and stretches besides cycling.
Jim Gagnepain
http://home.comcast.net/~oil_free_and_happy/

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

Before I get to the details let me start by saying that I am in my
late 40's. Before anyone suggests bike fit as a cause let me say that
the bike fit is good as evidenced by no knee problems until starting
the above. I have also been riding about 100 miles a week through the
winter so this isn't a spring over doers thing either.

I have recently been trying to increase my strength by pushing hills
while standing and slightly bigger gears sometimes while riding. I
have noticed an increase in strength but unfortunately my knees don't
seem able to take the added stress.

So here I am sitting by the computer with my knee wrapped in an ice
pack. This is probably patellar tendinitis as the pain seems to come
from tendons on the top inside and bottom outside of the kneecap. The
best I can tell is that the knee gets inflamed which then causes
tendons and such to move out of place causing even more problems.

So, am I doing something wrong? Other folks I ride with, some younger,
some older, don't seem to have a problem standing or pushing bigger
gears. Is there anything I can do to solve this or have I been
genetically unlucky and born with bad knees? If not I have probably
reached my cycling limit.

Steve,

You've got to sneak up on it a little.
Remember that your muscles can write
checks that your tendons and ligaments
can't cash. So you've got to strengthen
your connectors with some additional
patience. Immediately go back to spinning
easier gears--the knee pain should go
away. Then slowly build up resistance
to let your cords catch up. You'll be painlessly
powering big gears before too long.

If your knees still hurt even while spinning
easy gears, you've got some other problem.
Maybe a loose, worn out, or misaligned
cleat, something like that.

Robert

Steve Sr. said:

I have recently been trying to increase my strength by pushing hills
while standing and slightly bigger gears sometimes while riding. I
have noticed an increase in strength but unfortunately my knees don't
seem able to take the added stress.

Unless you're climbing with way (way way) bigger gears I'd be sort of
surprised that this was enough to trigger knee pain -- but since this
isn't a particularly effective way to improve your power, if you think
it's causing you problems, don't do it.

Quoted message said:

You've got to sneak up on it a little.
Remember that your muscles can write
checks that your tendons and ligaments
can't cash. So you've got to strengthen
your connectors with some additional
patience. Immediately go back to spinning
easier gears--the knee pain should go
away. Then slowly build up resistance
to let your cords catch up. You'll be painlessly
powering big gears before too long.

I agree with this. I have had tendonitis since I broke my kneecap in
2000. This is the first year I've been able to climb without pain. What
was different this time is that I really concentrated on sprints to
build my muscle strength before I went crazy in the hills.

I do high cadence explosive sprints, starting at ~22mph at 100 rpm and
topping out at 160-180 in 20 second efforts. I worked up to being able
to do 10 of these in around 30 minutes for my short strength workouts.
These are all-out sprints. I grow fangs and try to break [censored] --
totally explosive efforts -- but always high cadence.

Once I got to the point that I could feel the "snap" was back, I went
back to the hills. My sprint was feeling like it did in 1992 when I was
a 21-year-old Cat 3. It was great. Now I could lay a trail of fire up
the steepest sections on the steeper hills around here (20% - 25%
grade) and not experience any knee pain, standing or sitting.

Even my wife could tell that my knee was healthier just by the way I
was walking and the kinds of rides I was doing. Now I'm just doing
maintenance: sprints every week or two, a hill repeat workout, some
intervals, a couple road rides, some mountain biking, maybe a PR
attempt up Jester... I'm feeling great.

-Mike

I'm 52 and started experiencing knee pain this year when cycling and
using the bigger gears. It seemed to go away when I raised my saddle 2
cm.
Fred

Ken said:

Steve Sr. <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

So, am I doing something wrong? Other folks I ride with, some younger,
some older, don't seem to have a problem standing or pushing bigger
gears.

They probably have stronger leg muscles. If your knees hurt, then your
muscles aren't strong enough for the kind of riding you are trying to do.
You need more base miles to build up your strength.

Yes, this was certainly the case with me as well. In fact I had very
painful tendonitis after getting back into biking after a few years
off, probably the very same symptoms as the OP.

Base miles at high cadence (low gearing) was key to painless cycling.
I think what happened in my case initially was over-exertion. Before
the break I hardly ever rode in the small chainring on the flats. My
mistake was thinking I should be able to do the same after the break.

Again, I can't stress how important it is to let your legs get stronger
GRADUALLY to avoid knee pain. Your mind says to you "I should be able
to comfortably go faster than this!" but you have to very be patient.
If you don't think you are getting a sufficient "workout" just bike
longer distances (instead of faster, as in more powerfully). During
base mile recovery phase I changed out my chainrings from 53/42 to
50/39 and almost never used the large chainring except for going
downhill.

There is nothing more discouraging than biking with knee pain.

Per Steve Sr.:

Quoted message said:

So here I am sitting by the computer with my knee wrapped in an ice
pack.

Go easy. Back off. Your body will become less insult-tolerant with every year
and there's no sense insulting it any more than you have to.

You'll hear about of people who keep on pushing and pushing with apparent
invulnerability - but the reason you hear about them is that they're still in
the game. The ones who inflicted unrecoverable injuries on themselves just
quietly fade out as they are forced to seek other activities.

I don't have any idea what the percentages are either way, but it doesn't really
matter: if something's bothering your particular bod, that's all that matters.
If you can find a specific cause/solution, go for it... but don't figure on
gutting it out.

Also, if an orthopod suggests a surgical "fix", I'd do some homework on long
term outcomes. I know too many people who had, for instance, an offending
meniscus removed; went back to running; and wound up *really* messed up five
years later.
--
PeteCresswell

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Go easy. Back off. Your body will become less insult-tolerant with every year

and there's no sense insulting it any more than you have to.

You'll hear about of people who keep on pushing and pushing with
apparent
invulnerability - but the reason you hear about them is that they're
still in
the game. The ones who inflicted unrecoverable injuries on themselves
just
quietly fade out as they are forced to seek other activities.
---

I agree. I think everyone is different, some people can push big gears
up steep hills and do it for years with no problem. Other folks need
to take care of their legs, warm up carefully, pay attention to their
cadence and effort level.... I personally don't think leg strength is
that big a deal. Not too long ago I met the brother a coworker. We
agreed that his calves are smaller than my forearms.... I am riding to
work every day, he's riding for the Navigators in Europe...

I think the key is listening to one's own body and taking heed. One
shouldn't just decide that "I need greater leg strength." I think your
body is giving you a solid message, probably was giving hints before
this....

Disclaimer: I think cycling should be fun and enjoyable at every
moment. Never let training ruin a good ride...

Jon

fred said:

I'm 52 and started experiencing knee pain this year when cycling and
using the bigger gears. It seemed to go away when I raised my saddle 2
cm.
Fred

Saddle height is a bigger factor than most people realize. If you get it
right your legs should be just about fully extended at the bottom of the
stroke and you should be able to use your calf muscles for a little
extra push. Some of the kids think it is cool to have the saddle all the
way down and have their knees come up so high they block their vision,
but this is the 13 to 15 year old crowd. If they only knew.
Standing and pushing a big gear should be about like running up a flight
of stairs unless the gear is so big you are pulling up on the
handlebars, then it is time to back off.
Remember that if you are 52 you don't need to train so hard as to hurt
yourself, and it is all about staying fit at that point.
I hope you work it out.
We aren't ALL racers.
Bill Baka

Bill Baka said:

Ken said:

Steve Sr. <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

So, am I doing something wrong? Other folks I ride with, some younger,
some older, don't seem to have a problem standing or pushing bigger
gears.

They probably have stronger leg muscles. If your knees hurt, then your
muscles aren't strong enough for the kind of riding you are trying to do.
You need more base miles to build up your strength.

No smart ass intended here but I do the same at 57 and notice no
difference from standing and attacking or running up several flights of
stairs. I also sometimes just push top gear at a leisurely 16 MPH and
notice no problems except sore leg muscles if I do it for too many
miles.

Interesting. I might try this and see what happens.

Quoted message said:

Do you have any arthritis in your family? It ran in my mother's
side yet neither my sister or I have any sign.

Unfortunately, I seem to have some kind of connective tissue /
arthritis genetic link on my mother's side. If I had to guess I would
say it all boils down to major loss of flexibility and propensity for
inflamation. The loss of flexibility causes tendons and other
connective tissue to go places where it shouldn't causing a vicious
cycle of inflamation.

And yes, I do a lot of stretching, mostly after a ride. I have found
trying to stretch beforehand to be ineffective. This is one reason I
have been trying spread the cycling out over the week which tends to
help keep thing loosened up.

Quoted message said:

How old are you, since

49.

Quoted message said:

that could be a factor, and do you get any regular exercise at work?
Even running from cubicle to cubicle counts.

My exercise at work is riding 25 miles 2 days a week at lunch.

Quoted message said:

Bill Baka

On 4 Apr 2006 04:00:59 -0700, "damyth" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Ken said:

Steve Sr. <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

So, am I doing something wrong? Other folks I ride with, some younger,
some older, don't seem to have a problem standing or pushing bigger
gears.

They probably have stronger leg muscles. If your knees hurt, then your
muscles aren't strong enough for the kind of riding you are trying to do.
You need more base miles to build up your strength.

Yes, this was certainly the case with me as well. In fact I had very
painful tendonitis after getting back into biking after a few years
off, probably the very same symptoms as the OP.

Base miles at high cadence (low gearing) was key to painless cycling.
I think what happened in my case initially was over-exertion. Before
the break I hardly ever rode in the small chainring on the flats. My
mistake was thinking I should be able to do the same after the break.

But this was one of my points. I am currently doing 100-125 base miles
a week and have not really slacked off this winter so I am not really
coming off a break.. So you are saying that this is not enough base
miles?

Quoted message said:

Again, I can't stress how important it is to let your legs get stronger
GRADUALLY to avoid knee pain. Your mind says to you "I should be able
to comfortably go faster than this!" but you have to very be patient.
If you don't think you are getting a sufficient "workout" just bike
longer distances (instead of faster, as in more powerfully). During
base mile recovery phase I changed out my chainrings from 53/42 to
50/39 and almost never used the large chainring except for going
downhill.

Same here. I usually spin at 80-110 rpm but this doesn't appear to
build strength, just endurance. What is a big ring? :-) Oh, that
one... It gets used about twice a month on big downhills.

Quoted message said:

There is nothing more discouraging than biking with knee pain.

I can think of one worse. It is not knowing if and when you knees are
going to act up and how far you'll be from home when this happens. In
the last case it was about the last 15 miles of a metric.

Steve Sr. <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

But this was one of my points. I am currently doing 100-125 base miles
a week and have not really slacked off this winter so I am not really
coming off a break.. So you are saying that this is not enough base
miles?

How much riding are your friends doing? How hilly are your 100 miles/week?
Spinning over hilly terrain is much better for your fitness level than
spinning on flat ground.

Matt O'Toole said:

Steve Sr. said:

Hello,

Before I get to the details let me start by saying that I am in my late
40's. Before anyone suggests bike fit as a cause let me say that the
bike fit is good as evidenced by no knee problems until starting the
above. I have also been riding about 100 miles a week through the winter
so this isn't a spring over doers thing either.

I have recently been trying to increase my strength by pushing hills
while standing and slightly bigger gears sometimes while riding. I have
noticed an increase in strength but unfortunately my knees don't seem
able to take the added stress.

So here I am sitting by the computer with my knee wrapped in an ice
pack. This is probably patellar tendinitis as the pain seems to come
from tendons on the top inside and bottom outside of the kneecap. The
best I can tell is that the knee gets inflamed which then causes tendons
and such to move out of place causing even more problems.

So, am I doing something wrong? Other folks I ride with, some younger,
some older, don't seem to have a problem standing or pushing bigger
gears. Is there anything I can do to solve this or have I been
genetically unlucky and born with bad knees? If not I have probably
reached my cycling limit.

You should probably get lower gears to ease the stress on your
knees. However, I think pushing big gears at low cadences while sitting
is worse than while standing.
So if you're having trouble pushing
at least 60-70rpm, get out of the saddle no matter what gear you're in.
Straighten your leg at the top of the stroke, riding the pedal down with a
straight leg, letting your weight do the work. This way you limit the
force on your knees to that of your own weight.

Interesting point. I always thought that standing would be worse since
your knee cap actually comes loose and then snaps back into place once
per revolution while standing. Anybody else care to weigh in on which
is really worse?

Quoted message said:

You might be able to work with a physical therapist or personal trainer to
build leg strength through weight training, or a program of short hill
climbs.

My lunch time hill program is called Pump Station Rd. It is about 0.4
miles long and steep enough to stand in a higher gear or spin it about
60-70 in a 39/25-27 gear.

Steve

Quoted message said:

Matt O.

oilfreeandhappy said:

There's some other factors that can cause this. Were you warmed up
enough before standing and pushing?

yes

Quoted message said:

Also, was the weather cold? Did
you have something warm over your knees?

Yes and yes.

Quoted message said:

You're in your late 40s.
Take care of your knees. Don't push too hard.
If you're doing 100
mile rides, that in itself could be hard on the knees.

It doesn't seem to be for other folks in my age group which is why the
original post.

Quoted message said:

When cooled off, do your knees pop or creak when you stand up? If so,
first I'd try a combination of icing and massaging two or three times a
day. Standing on a pillow on one leg is a good PT exercise. Do other
exercises and stretches besides cycling.

I do have what doctors have called crepitas where tendons snap over
calcified deposits. Sometimes the pain orriginates from one or more of
these areas and sometimes it is just a non-specific ache. However, I
have crepitas in both knees and only one knee is currently causing a
problem.

Quoted message said:

Jim Gagnepain
http://home.comcast.net/~oil_free_and_happy/