stalled in induction

"Doug Freyburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Patrick Grady said:

Really cutting fat?

No, not really cut the fat. Joe the Aroma isn't up on the chemisty
of how low carb works so he picks the most obvious solution.
When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a
nail.

Well in "Protein Power" they said to "cut back on fat a bit" for stalls. Not
that it's bad, it's just calorie dense. I did that and it worked.

And please remember that calories do count; the success of any diet is
not just with the low carbs although they are very important. Meat and
mayo do have high calories even though they are relatively carb-free.
So, have meat, but don't go at it in large quanity on a regular basis.

Barbara

Quoted message said:

Patrick Grady said:

I have been following induction for 4 -5 days. I have noticed zero change in
the scale or inches. This is despite working out. I actually think I gained
an inch on my waist. Here is a sample menu please post any suggestions.
breakfast: 2 eggs one slice of provolone
lunch: ham salad about 8oz made from no carb canned ham with 2 tbsp of mayo
dinner: 6 - 8 oz ground chuck lean with 2 tbsp sour cream and 1/2 cup
mushrooms.
I am 198 looking to get down to around 162. I also want to note that while I
was not expecting a huge drastic drop in weight so soon I was expecting
something it is kinda discouraging to notice no change in weight. I do
however notice that I have more energy and my heartburn has gone away.

Atkins induction includes several cups of vegetables every day. Just
saying... it's pretty inaccurate to say you're following it with the
above sample menu.

Add a big green salad for lunch and some steamed veggies for dinner and
*then* this will be induction.

Protein Power says to cut back on fat "a bit" for stalls. It worked for
me... not eating enough vegetables seems to stall me as well.

"Patrick Grady" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Really cutting fat? In the book it says it is important to eat high fat,
since the ratio of fats to proteins are what is important.
"Joe the Aroma" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Patrick Grady" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been following induction for 4 -5 days. I have noticed zero
change
in
the scale or inches. This is despite working out. I actually think I
gained
an inch on my waist. Here is a sample menu please post any suggestions.
breakfast: 2 eggs one slice of provolone
lunch: ham salad about 8oz made from no carb canned ham with 2 tbsp of
mayo
dinner: 6 - 8 oz ground chuck lean with 2 tbsp sour cream and 1/2 cup
mushrooms.
I am 198 looking to get down to around 162. I also want to note that

while

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I
was not expecting a huge drastic drop in weight so soon I was expecting
something it is kinda discouraging to notice no change in weight. I do
however notice that I have more energy and my heartburn has gone away.

Try cutting the fat a bit and have a salad (low carb) at lunch.

Joe the Aroma wrote:
:: "Doug Freyburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: Patrick Grady wrote:
::::
:::: Really cutting fat?
:::
::: No, not really cut the fat. Joe the Aroma isn't up on the chemisty
::: of how low carb works so he picks the most obvious solution.
::: When your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a
::: nail.
::
:: Well in "Protein Power" they said to "cut back on fat a bit" for
:: stalls. Not that it's bad, it's just calorie dense. I did that and
:: it worked.

If you count calories, then you don't have to cut back on anything in
particular, assuming carbs are kept low.

Thanks for the tips guys!

In my 4th week I started adding lettuce and other ground up veggies for a
bit of change! Added Ground flax seed to my eggs to get that needed fibre
too!

"Joe the Aroma" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Protein Power says to cut back on fat "a bit" for stalls. It worked for
me... not eating enough vegetables seems to stall me as well.

"Patrick Grady" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Really cutting fat? In the book it says it is important to eat high fat,
since the ratio of fats to proteins are what is important.
"Joe the Aroma" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Patrick Grady" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>I have been following induction for 4 -5 days. I have noticed zero
>change
>in
> the scale or inches. This is despite working out. I actually think I
> gained
> an inch on my waist. Here is a sample menu please post any
> suggestions.
> breakfast: 2 eggs one slice of provolone
> lunch: ham salad about 8oz made from no carb canned ham with 2 tbsp of
> mayo
> dinner: 6 - 8 oz ground chuck lean with 2 tbsp sour cream and 1/2 cup
> mushrooms.
> I am 198 looking to get down to around 162. I also want to note that

while

Quoted message said:

> I
> was not expecting a huge drastic drop in weight so soon I was
> expecting
> something it is kinda discouraging to notice no change in weight. I do
> however notice that I have more energy and my heartburn has gone away.

Try cutting the fat a bit and have a salad (low carb) at lunch.

Quoted message said:

While you can have 2 to 3 cups of salad type vegetables and one cup of
many other vegetables on Atkins induction and I agree it's a good idea,
it's not strictly required.

That's not how I read it. Atkins, and all the other low-carb plans
I've read, all require veggies.

The only "meat only" low-carb plans I've seen have been inventions of
the opposition wishing to criticize these diets by inventing "all meat"
straw men.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While you can have 2 to 3 cups of salad type vegetables and one cup of
many other vegetables on Atkins induction and I agree it's a good idea,
it's not strictly required.

That's not how I read it. Atkins, and all the other low-carb plans
I've read, all require veggies.

Then perhaps you can supply a page reference where Atkins stated that
vegetables are required during induction. From DANDR pages 124-126
the induction food list has foods you may eat liberally, which includes
meat, fish, chicken, eggs, etc. He has salad vegetables listed as
other foods acceptable during induction that you MAY have 2 to 3 cups
of per day. Then he lists other LC vegs saying you CAN have one cup
per day if salad doesn't exceed 2 cups. I don't see anywhere that he
specifically required a certain amount of vegetables during induction,
he only set maximums. So I don't think the OP's post where his one
day sample menu listing a half cup of mushrooms violates any Atkins
rule for induction. If you have a reference that shows otherwise, I'd
be happy to see it.

Quoted message said:

The only "meat only" low-carb plans I've seen have been inventions of
the opposition wishing to criticize these diets by inventing "all meat"
straw men.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

While you can have 2 to 3 cups of salad type vegetables and one cup of
many other vegetables on Atkins induction and I agree it's a good idea,
it's not strictly required.

Quoted message said:

That's not how I read it. Atkins, and all the other low-carb plans
I've read, all require veggies.

Then perhaps you can supply a page reference where Atkins stated that
vegetables are required during induction. From DANDR pages 124-126
the induction food list has foods you may eat liberally, which includes
meat, fish, chicken, eggs, etc. He has salad vegetables listed as
other foods acceptable during induction that you MAY have 2 to 3 cups
of per day. Then he lists other LC vegs saying you CAN have one cup
per day if salad doesn't exceed 2 cups. I don't see anywhere that he
specifically required a certain amount of vegetables during induction,
he only set maximums. So I don't think the OP's post where his one
day sample menu listing a half cup of mushrooms violates any Atkins
rule for induction. If you have a reference that shows otherwise, I'd
be happy to see it.

The cups listing became obsolete for anyone who decides to
do net carb counts instead of total carb counts. To get to 20
it now takes more cups than was listed in the book since
those cup amounts will have you end up near 20 total not 20
net.

As to whether the 20 during Induction is a requirment or an
option, it's one of several points where we disagree. If you don't
view the Induction 20 as a goal then you won't view veggies as
mandatory. Cutting back on the veggies to further reduce carb
count is one of the things discussed as an option for the few
folks who fail to get into ketosis at 20.

Doug Freyburger said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

> While you can have 2 to 3 cups of salad type vegetables and one cup of
> many other vegetables on Atkins induction and I agree it's a good idea,
> it's not strictly required.

Quoted message said:

That's not how I read it. Atkins, and all the other low-carb plans
I've read, all require veggies.

Then perhaps you can supply a page reference where Atkins stated that
vegetables are required during induction. From DANDR pages 124-126
the induction food list has foods you may eat liberally, which includes
meat, fish, chicken, eggs, etc. He has salad vegetables listed as
other foods acceptable during induction that you MAY have 2 to 3 cups
of per day. Then he lists other LC vegs saying you CAN have one cup
per day if salad doesn't exceed 2 cups. I don't see anywhere that he
specifically required a certain amount of vegetables during induction,
he only set maximums. So I don't think the OP's post where his one
day sample menu listing a half cup of mushrooms violates any Atkins
rule for induction. If you have a reference that shows otherwise, I'd
be happy to see it.

The cups listing became obsolete for anyone who decides to
do net carb counts instead of total carb counts.

Really, according to who, you or Atkins? In the last edition of DANDR,
2002, he talks about subtracting out fiber from carbs. He even has a
tables of foods with their net carb count. Yet, the rules of induction
are as I stated above, with a maximum limit on salad and vegetables.,
right there in the book, for anyone who cares to read it.

Quoted message said:

To get to 20
it now takes more cups than was listed in the book since
those cup amounts will have you end up near 20 total not 20
net.

As per above, the last edition of the book doesn't state that. And
that's my problem with much of what you post. You try to make it
appear as if it were straight from Atkins, yet it is not.

Quoted message said:

As to whether the 20 during Induction is a requirment or an
option, it's one of several points where we disagree.

Disagree on what? Whether Atkins stated it as a requirement? If
you're claiming he did, a page reference would be nice, though I don't
expect one will be forthcoming. He certainly encouraged people to eat
appropriate vegetables. But I've never seen where he stated a minimum
amount was mandatory during induction. Different people have
different tastes. Induction can be hard enough. If someone is doing
OK and just eating less vegetables during induction, I don't see
anything from Atkins that says they are doing anything wrong.

If you don't

Quoted message said:

view the Induction 20 as a goal then you won't view veggies as
mandatory. Cutting back on the veggies to further reduce carb
count is one of the things discussed as an option for the few
folks who fail to get into ketosis at 20.

Quoted message said:

As per above, the last edition of the book doesn't state that. And
that's my problem with much of what you post. You try to make it
appear as if it were straight from Atkins, yet it is not.

I'm pretty sure I remember an interview with him after his last book
where he did say that though. I believe the idea originally came from
the Eades, but he bought into it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As to whether the 20 during Induction is a requirment or an
option, it's one of several points where we disagree.

Disagree on what? Whether Atkins stated it as a requirement? If
you're claiming he did, a page reference would be nice, though I don't
expect one will be forthcoming. He certainly encouraged people to eat
appropriate vegetables. But I've never seen where he stated a minimum
amount was mandatory during induction. Different people have
different tastes. Induction can be hard enough. If someone is doing
OK and just eating less vegetables during induction, I don't see
anything from Atkins that says they are doing anything wrong.

Well, it's like this... don't have a book handy, but... Atkins said
you're supposed to do induction, at 20 grams per week, for two weeks.
Then you are supposed to increase the amount of carb by 5 grams/week
each week until you stop losing or fall out of ketosis, then fall back
to the previous week for OWL.

I do not see how you could possibly follow this system without eating
vegetables, since they're pretty much the only carbs he allows in
induction. How do you increase your intake of carbs by 5 grams per
week if you take in none in the first place?

OWL is the majority of the Atkins system for losing weight. If you're
blowing off doing induction properly, then you can't do OWL properly,
and while you may indeed be doing low-carb, you're not doing Atkins.

Not that there's anything wrong with not doing Atkins, just that if
you're doing a home-grown low-carb plan, you don't call what you're
doing "induction" as that's an Atkins term. Words mean something. If
you say you're doing induction, by implication, you're doing the Atkins
program.

I don't see how it's possible to do the Atkins program without
vegetables.

On the Atkins program, stuff like cutting out all carbs on a fat fast
is reserved for folks who are "metabolically resistant" who lose no
weight in induction. It's an extremely temporary thing to do a fat
fast, as Atkins did not push a diet without vegetables, contrary to the
straw man diet that is often attacked instead of the one he actually
published.

Again, I see nothing *wrong* with not doing Atkins. I don't do Atkins.
As far as the specific-book plans, I prefer Protein Power. But I
don't do that either. I do a home-grown plan, aiming at a maximum of
50 grams of carb per day, minimum of 80 g of protein, and somewhere
around 1400-1600 kilocalories. But if I want feedback on my diet, I
have to post it in detail, and not call it "induction" or "Protein
Power phase 2" or whatever, because those refer to specific plans that
I'm not doing.

Quoted message said:

Disagree on what? Whether Atkins stated it as a requirement? If
you're claiming he did, a page reference would be nice, though I don't
expect one will be forthcoming.

And btw, it's not scripture or something, it's just a diet book.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As per above, the last edition of the book doesn't state that. And
that's my problem with much of what you post. You try to make it
appear as if it were straight from Atkins, yet it is not.

I'm pretty sure I remember an interview with him after his last book
where he did say that though. I believe the idea originally came from
the Eades, but he bought into it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As to whether the 20 during Induction is a requirment or an
option, it's one of several points where we disagree.

Disagree on what? Whether Atkins stated it as a requirement? If
you're claiming he did, a page reference would be nice, though I don't
expect one will be forthcoming. He certainly encouraged people to eat
appropriate vegetables. But I've never seen where he stated a minimum
amount was mandatory during induction. Different people have
different tastes. Induction can be hard enough. If someone is doing
OK and just eating less vegetables during induction, I don't see
anything from Atkins that says they are doing anything wrong.

Well, it's like this... don't have a book handy, but... Atkins said
you're supposed to do induction, at 20 grams per week, for two weeks.
Then you are supposed to increase the amount of carb by 5 grams/week
each week until you stop losing or fall out of ketosis, then fall back
to the previous week for OWL.

I do not see how you could possibly follow this system without eating
vegetables, since they're pretty much the only carbs he allows in
induction. How do you increase your intake of carbs by 5 grams per
week if you take in none in the first place?

The discussion was about induction, which is all we were talking about.
The OP was only a few days into induction. According to Atkins,
the limit on carbs is 20g per day, not a requirement.

Quoted message said:

OWL is the majority of the Atkins system for losing weight. If you're
blowing off doing induction properly, then you can't do OWL properly,
and while you may indeed be doing low-carb, you're not doing Atkins.

The point is the OP is doing induction properly according to Atkins.

Quoted message said:

Not that there's anything wrong with not doing Atkins, just that if
you're doing a home-grown low-carb plan, you don't call what you're
doing "induction" as that's an Atkins term. Words mean something. If
you say you're doing induction, by implication, you're doing the Atkins
program.

I agree, which is why when someone posts that the OP should be eating a
large salad, or that a certain amount of vegs are required during
induction according to Atkins, I point out that as far as I can tell,
Atkins didn't say that. Induction and how to do it is clearly spelled
out, only specifying a maximum amount of vegs/salad, not a minimum.

Atkins encouraged eating the right vegs and I agree with that. If I
were doing induction, I would eat more vegs than the OP is. I'd
certainly add a small salad. But different people have different
tastes and needs. He shouldn't be told he's doing something wrong and
attributing it to some Atkins rule that doesn't exist.

Quoted message said:

I don't see how it's possible to do the Atkins program without
vegetables.

On the Atkins program, stuff like cutting out all carbs on a fat fast
is reserved for folks who are "metabolically resistant" who lose no
weight in induction. It's an extremely temporary thing to do a fat
fast, as Atkins did not push a diet without vegetables, contrary to the
straw man diet that is often attacked instead of the one he actually
published.

The OP isn't cutting out all carbs. He's eating 1/2 cup of mushrooms a
day, plus getting some from cheese in the example of what he's eating
for one day. And he's only a few days into induction.

Quoted message said:

Again, I see nothing *wrong* with not doing Atkins. I don't do Atkins.
As far as the specific-book plans, I prefer Protein Power. But I
don't do that either. I do a home-grown plan, aiming at a maximum of
50 grams of carb per day, minimum of 80 g of protein, and somewhere
around 1400-1600 kilocalories. But if I want feedback on my diet, I
have to post it in detail, and not call it "induction" or "Protein
Power phase 2" or whatever, because those refer to specific plans that
I'm not doing.

What the OP called induction fits every requirement of Atkins.

[email hidden] wrote:
:: [email hidden] wrote:
::: [email hidden] wrote:
:::
:::: As per above, the last edition of the book doesn't state that. And
:::: that's my problem with much of what you post. You try to make it
:::: appear as if it were straight from Atkins, yet it is not.
:::
::: I'm pretty sure I remember an interview with him after his last book
::: where he did say that though. I believe the idea originally came
::: from the Eades, but he bought into it.
:::
:::
::::: As to whether the 20 during Induction is a requirment or an
::::: option, it's one of several points where we disagree.
::::
:::: Disagree on what? Whether Atkins stated it as a requirement? If
:::: you're claiming he did, a page reference would be nice, though I
:::: don't expect one will be forthcoming. He certainly encouraged
:::: people to eat appropriate vegetables. But I've never seen where
:::: he stated a minimum amount was mandatory during induction.
:::: Different people have different tastes. Induction can be hard
:::: enough. If someone is doing OK and just eating less vegetables
:::: during induction, I don't see anything from Atkins that says they
:::: are doing anything wrong.
:::
::: Well, it's like this... don't have a book handy, but... Atkins said
::: you're supposed to do induction, at 20 grams per week, for two
::: weeks. Then you are supposed to increase the amount of carb by 5
::: grams/week each week until you stop losing or fall out of ketosis,
::: then fall back to the previous week for OWL.
:::
::: I do not see how you could possibly follow this system without
::: eating vegetables, since they're pretty much the only carbs he
::: allows in induction. How do you increase your intake of carbs by 5
::: grams per week if you take in none in the first place?
::
:: The discussion was about induction, which is all we were talking
:: about. The OP was only a few days into induction. According to
:: Atkins,
:: the limit on carbs is 20g per day, not a requirement.
::
::
:::
::: OWL is the majority of the Atkins system for losing weight. If
::: you're blowing off doing induction properly, then you can't do OWL
::: properly, and while you may indeed be doing low-carb, you're not
::: doing Atkins.
::
:: The point is the OP is doing induction properly according to Atkins.
::
::
:::
::: Not that there's anything wrong with not doing Atkins, just that if
::: you're doing a home-grown low-carb plan, you don't call what you're
::: doing "induction" as that's an Atkins term. Words mean something.
::: If you say you're doing induction, by implication, you're doing the
::: Atkins program.
:::
::
:: I agree, which is why when someone posts that the OP should be
:: eating a large salad, or that a certain amount of vegs are required
:: during induction according to Atkins, I point out that as far as I
:: can tell, Atkins didn't say that. Induction and how to do it is
:: clearly spelled out, only specifying a maximum amount of vegs/salad,
:: not a minimum.
::
:: Atkins encouraged eating the right vegs and I agree with that. If I
:: were doing induction, I would eat more vegs than the OP is. I'd
:: certainly add a small salad. But different people have different
:: tastes and needs. He shouldn't be told he's doing something wrong
:: and attributing it to some Atkins rule that doesn't exist.
::
::
::: I don't see how it's possible to do the Atkins program without
::: vegetables.
:::
::: On the Atkins program, stuff like cutting out all carbs on a fat
::: fast is reserved for folks who are "metabolically resistant" who
::: lose no weight in induction. It's an extremely temporary thing to
::: do a fat fast, as Atkins did not push a diet without vegetables,
::: contrary to the straw man diet that is often attacked instead of
::: the one he actually published.
::
:: The OP isn't cutting out all carbs. He's eating 1/2 cup of
:: mushrooms a day, plus getting some from cheese in the example of
:: what he's eating for one day. And he's only a few days into
:: induction.
::
::
:::
::: Again, I see nothing *wrong* with not doing Atkins. I don't do
::: Atkins. As far as the specific-book plans, I prefer Protein Power.
::: But I don't do that either. I do a home-grown plan, aiming at a
::: maximum of 50 grams of carb per day, minimum of 80 g of protein,
::: and somewhere around 1400-1600 kilocalories. But if I want
::: feedback on my diet, I have to post it in detail, and not call it
::: "induction" or "Protein Power phase 2" or whatever, because those
::: refer to specific plans that I'm not doing.
::
:: What the OP called induction fits every requirement of Atkins.

Okay, but in the broader context, the OP may end up consitipated. Even
Atkins would agree that eating the limit on veggies is a good idea and this
may help with getting through induction. Frankly, I think Atkins *intended*
most of those 20g of carbs to come from veggies. So while it might not be
*explicitly* stated that one *must* (note - I don't think Atkins really says
you *must* do anything other than control run-away carb consumption) eat
veggies, it does seem to be the gist of what was intended. I think it comes
through clearly in the *totality* of Atkins' writings on *doing* Atkins.

Quoted message said:

What the OP called induction fits every requirement of Atkins.

Except for the ability to move off it into OWL. Atkins made rather
clear he intended induction as a two-week stint. It's the start of the
diet, not the bulk of the diet. It's a temporary phase.

I don't see how anyone can say they're on "induction", without planning
for OWL... which again, requires veggies.

OWL may very well wind up at 50, 60, 70 or more grams of carb for any
particular individual... and I don't see how anyone is going to get
*that* amount of carb from cheese or such, without veggies. Unless
you're going to start adding stuff like bread, in which case, you're
not really doing Atkins either.

Sure, Atkins did not say you *have* to eat vegetables, but he also did
not say you *have* to do his diet at all.

The no-veggie "Atkins" diet is a straw man invented by low-carb critics
who wanna rant and rave about people who eat nothing but bacon and
burgers.

Roger Zoul said:

[email hidden] wrote:
:: [email hidden] wrote:
::: [email hidden] wrote:
:::
:::: As per above, the last edition of the book doesn't state that. And
:::: that's my problem with much of what you post. You try to make it
:::: appear as if it were straight from Atkins, yet it is not.
:::
::: I'm pretty sure I remember an interview with him after his last book
::: where he did say that though. I believe the idea originally came
::: from the Eades, but he bought into it.
:::
:::
::::: As to whether the 20 during Induction is a requirment or an
::::: option, it's one of several points where we disagree.
::::
:::: Disagree on what? Whether Atkins stated it as a requirement? If
:::: you're claiming he did, a page reference would be nice, though I
:::: don't expect one will be forthcoming. He certainly encouraged
:::: people to eat appropriate vegetables. But I've never seen where
:::: he stated a minimum amount was mandatory during induction.
:::: Different people have different tastes. Induction can be hard
:::: enough. If someone is doing OK and just eating less vegetables
:::: during induction, I don't see anything from Atkins that says they
:::: are doing anything wrong.
:::
::: Well, it's like this... don't have a book handy, but... Atkins said
::: you're supposed to do induction, at 20 grams per week, for two
::: weeks. Then you are supposed to increase the amount of carb by 5
::: grams/week each week until you stop losing or fall out of ketosis,
::: then fall back to the previous week for OWL.
:::
::: I do not see how you could possibly follow this system without
::: eating vegetables, since they're pretty much the only carbs he
::: allows in induction. How do you increase your intake of carbs by 5
::: grams per week if you take in none in the first place?
::
:: The discussion was about induction, which is all we were talking
:: about. The OP was only a few days into induction. According to
:: Atkins,
:: the limit on carbs is 20g per day, not a requirement.
::
::
:::
::: OWL is the majority of the Atkins system for losing weight. If
::: you're blowing off doing induction properly, then you can't do OWL
::: properly, and while you may indeed be doing low-carb, you're not
::: doing Atkins.
::
:: The point is the OP is doing induction properly according to Atkins.
::
::
:::
::: Not that there's anything wrong with not doing Atkins, just that if
::: you're doing a home-grown low-carb plan, you don't call what you're
::: doing "induction" as that's an Atkins term. Words mean something.
::: If you say you're doing induction, by implication, you're doing the
::: Atkins program.
:::
::
:: I agree, which is why when someone posts that the OP should be
:: eating a large salad, or that a certain amount of vegs are required
:: during induction according to Atkins, I point out that as far as I
:: can tell, Atkins didn't say that. Induction and how to do it is
:: clearly spelled out, only specifying a maximum amount of vegs/salad,
:: not a minimum.
::
:: Atkins encouraged eating the right vegs and I agree with that. If I
:: were doing induction, I would eat more vegs than the OP is. I'd
:: certainly add a small salad. But different people have different
:: tastes and needs. He shouldn't be told he's doing something wrong
:: and attributing it to some Atkins rule that doesn't exist.
::
::
::: I don't see how it's possible to do the Atkins program without
::: vegetables.
:::
::: On the Atkins program, stuff like cutting out all carbs on a fat
::: fast is reserved for folks who are "metabolically resistant" who
::: lose no weight in induction. It's an extremely temporary thing to
::: do a fat fast, as Atkins did not push a diet without vegetables,
::: contrary to the straw man diet that is often attacked instead of
::: the one he actually published.
::
:: The OP isn't cutting out all carbs. He's eating 1/2 cup of
:: mushrooms a day, plus getting some from cheese in the example of
:: what he's eating for one day. And he's only a few days into
:: induction.
::
::
:::
::: Again, I see nothing *wrong* with not doing Atkins. I don't do
::: Atkins. As far as the specific-book plans, I prefer Protein Power.
::: But I don't do that either. I do a home-grown plan, aiming at a
::: maximum of 50 grams of carb per day, minimum of 80 g of protein,
::: and somewhere around 1400-1600 kilocalories. But if I want
::: feedback on my diet, I have to post it in detail, and not call it
::: "induction" or "Protein Power phase 2" or whatever, because those
::: refer to specific plans that I'm not doing.
::
:: What the OP called induction fits every requirement of Atkins.

Okay, but in the broader context, the OP may end up consitipated.

Some people wind up constipated for a variety of reasons, with or
without vegs and some don't. I've had days when I did induction where
I didn't eat a lot of vegs and have never been constipated. The OP
didn't complain about constipation.

Even

Quoted message said:

Atkins would agree that eating the limit on veggies is a good idea and this
may help with getting through induction. Frankly, I think Atkins *intended*
most of those 20g of carbs to come from veggies. So while it might not be
*explicitly* stated that one *must* (note - I don't think Atkins really says
you *must* do anything other than control run-away carb consumption) eat
veggies, it does seem to be the gist of what was intended. I think it comes
through clearly in the *totality* of Atkins' writings on *doing* Atkins.

Atkins did lay out explicit and simple rules for induction, ie a limit
of 3 cups salad, only 2 cups if you want to have other vegs, etc.
Those limit set maximums, not minimums, and the OP is following them,
yet we have people in this thread saying the OP should eat a big salad
for lunch, instead of the ham salad he is eating. And BTW, the ham
salad could very likely have celery in it, which could add another half
cup of vegetable to his half cup mushrooms for that one particular day.

The definition of a big salad is pretty open, I think it would usually
be a lot more than 2-3 cups. And while eating more than the 2-3 cups
limit of salad certainly isn't the worse thing one could eat too much
of, it is a misrepresentation to suggest that doing that is what
Atkins said should be done on induction. Isn;t it better to just
follow a simple, explicit plan?

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Roger Zoul said:

[email hidden] wrote:
:: [email hidden] wrote:
::: [email hidden] wrote:
:::
:::: As per above, the last edition of the book doesn't state that. And
:::: that's my problem with much of what you post. You try to make it
:::: appear as if it were straight from Atkins, yet it is not.
:::
::: I'm pretty sure I remember an interview with him after his last book
::: where he did say that though. I believe the idea originally came
::: from the Eades, but he bought into it.
:::
:::
::::: As to whether the 20 during Induction is a requirment or an
::::: option, it's one of several points where we disagree.
::::
:::: Disagree on what? Whether Atkins stated it as a requirement? If
:::: you're claiming he did, a page reference would be nice, though I
:::: don't expect one will be forthcoming. He certainly encouraged
:::: people to eat appropriate vegetables. But I've never seen where
:::: he stated a minimum amount was mandatory during induction.
:::: Different people have different tastes. Induction can be hard
:::: enough. If someone is doing OK and just eating less vegetables
:::: during induction, I don't see anything from Atkins that says they
:::: are doing anything wrong.
:::
::: Well, it's like this... don't have a book handy, but... Atkins said
::: you're supposed to do induction, at 20 grams per week, for two
::: weeks. Then you are supposed to increase the amount of carb by 5
::: grams/week each week until you stop losing or fall out of ketosis,
::: then fall back to the previous week for OWL.
:::
::: I do not see how you could possibly follow this system without
::: eating vegetables, since they're pretty much the only carbs he
::: allows in induction. How do you increase your intake of carbs by 5
::: grams per week if you take in none in the first place?
::
:: The discussion was about induction, which is all we were talking
:: about. The OP was only a few days into induction. According to
:: Atkins,
:: the limit on carbs is 20g per day, not a requirement.
::
::
:::
::: OWL is the majority of the Atkins system for losing weight. If
::: you're blowing off doing induction properly, then you can't do OWL
::: properly, and while you may indeed be doing low-carb, you're not
::: doing Atkins.
::
:: The point is the OP is doing induction properly according to Atkins.
::
::
:::
::: Not that there's anything wrong with not doing Atkins, just that if
::: you're doing a home-grown low-carb plan, you don't call what you're
::: doing "induction" as that's an Atkins term. Words mean something.
::: If you say you're doing induction, by implication, you're doing the
::: Atkins program.
:::
::
:: I agree, which is why when someone posts that the OP should be
:: eating a large salad, or that a certain amount of vegs are required
:: during induction according to Atkins, I point out that as far as I
:: can tell, Atkins didn't say that. Induction and how to do it is
:: clearly spelled out, only specifying a maximum amount of vegs/salad,
:: not a minimum.
::
:: Atkins encouraged eating the right vegs and I agree with that. If I
:: were doing induction, I would eat more vegs than the OP is. I'd
:: certainly add a small salad. But different people have different
:: tastes and needs. He shouldn't be told he's doing something wrong
:: and attributing it to some Atkins rule that doesn't exist.
::
::
::: I don't see how it's possible to do the Atkins program without
::: vegetables.
:::
::: On the Atkins program, stuff like cutting out all carbs on a fat
::: fast is reserved for folks who are "metabolically resistant" who
::: lose no weight in induction. It's an extremely temporary thing to
::: do a fat fast, as Atkins did not push a diet without vegetables,
::: contrary to the straw man diet that is often attacked instead of
::: the one he actually published.
::
:: The OP isn't cutting out all carbs. He's eating 1/2 cup of
:: mushrooms a day, plus getting some from cheese in the example of
:: what he's eating for one day. And he's only a few days into
:: induction.
::
::
:::
::: Again, I see nothing *wrong* with not doing Atkins. I don't do
::: Atkins. As far as the specific-book plans, I prefer Protein Power.
::: But I don't do that either. I do a home-grown plan, aiming at a
::: maximum of 50 grams of carb per day, minimum of 80 g of protein,
::: and somewhere around 1400-1600 kilocalories. But if I want
::: feedback on my diet, I have to post it in detail, and not call it
::: "induction" or "Protein Power phase 2" or whatever, because those
::: refer to specific plans that I'm not doing.
::
:: What the OP called induction fits every requirement of Atkins.

Okay, but in the broader context, the OP may end up consitipated.

Some people wind up constipated for a variety of reasons, with or
without vegs and some don't. I've had days when I did induction where
I didn't eat a lot of vegs and have never been constipated. The OP
didn't complain about constipation.

The OP didn't complain about constipation, true. However, that doesn't mean
the OP isn't going in that direction, and if so, that could be a reason the
"apparent" stall.

Quoted message said:

Even

Quoted message said:

Atkins would agree that eating the limit on veggies is a good idea and
this
may help with getting through induction. Frankly, I think Atkins
*intended*
most of those 20g of carbs to come from veggies. So while it might not
be
*explicitly* stated that one *must* (note - I don't think Atkins really
says
you *must* do anything other than control run-away carb consumption) eat
veggies, it does seem to be the gist of what was intended. I think it
comes
through clearly in the *totality* of Atkins' writings on *doing* Atkins.

Atkins did lay out explicit and simple rules for induction, ie a limit
of 3 cups salad, only 2 cups if you want to have other vegs, etc.
Those limit set maximums, not minimums,

I think this is clear and not in dispute. Still, eating most of your 20g of
carbs from veggies is what I, and many others, and I *believe* Atkins was
saying. The plan is quite flexible and hence one has many options.

and the OP is following them,

Quoted message said:

yet we have people in this thread saying the OP should eat a big salad
for lunch,

It's advice...advice that comes from people who have done Atkins and have
had success. The advice given is certainly within the Atkins specs and is
likely what advice Atkins would give.

instead of the ham salad he is eating. And BTW, the ham

Quoted message said:

salad could very likely have celery in it, which could add another half
cup of vegetable to his half cup mushrooms for that one particular day.

Or not. we don't know. But what could likely be the case is that by not
eating fiber-rich veggies, the OP is simply eating too many calories to show
weight loss. Hence, a complaint. Or, stuff is building up in the gut and
masking weight loss.

Quoted message said:

The definition of a big salad is pretty open, I think it would usually
be a lot more than 2-3 cups.

That would likely be the case for me... Frankly, I don't think it's very
important...and from a weight loss POV, induction isn't that important (it
does have other uses, however).

And while eating more than the 2-3 cups

Quoted message said:

limit of salad certainly isn't the worse thing one could eat too much
of, it is a misrepresentation to suggest that doing that is what
Atkins said should be done on induction. Isn;t it better to just
follow a simple, explicit plan?

The thing is, Atkins is not very explicit, though it is simple. When
someone gets motivated enough to find this ng and post a question about not
losing, then advice is given to help them find a way to get weight loss
going. As you must know, when dieting people can become very discouraged
very quickly. While I agree that you won't find a Atkins statement that you
*must* do something other than control carb intake, it is very clear in his
writings that consumption of veggies is an important part of the entire
Atkins plan.

Quoted message said:

Some people wind up constipated for a variety of reasons, with or
without vegs and some don't. I've had days when I did induction where
I didn't eat a lot of vegs and have never been constipated. The OP
didn't complain about constipation.

I think the high level of fat in most low-carb diets pretty much takes
care of this even without fiber from veggies.

The veggies are mostly for nutrients.

And for flavor. I think a meat-and-dairy only plan would be hard to
stick too for long. You get a lot of flavor when you add veggies and
herbs to your diet.

Myself... lately, I am not in a meat mood. Meat is more of a seasoning
than a food. Like... I cook a hamburger, not because I want the
hamburger, but because I want the grease to cook a pile of mushrooms
and onions in.

Maybe I'm just tired of meat after years of low-carbing. I'm actively
having to pay attention to getting enough protein cause I've kinda lost
interest.

Making grocery lists... I think, "Well, yeah chicken is on sale, but I
don't really want chicken." And it being the wrong time of year for
fresh produce, everything is shipped in from elsewhere and therefore
expensive. While I am normally quite frugal, lately it's been a big
old splurge on fresh produce and to damned with the cost.

Quoted message said:

The definition of a big salad is pretty open, I think it would usually
be a lot more than 2-3 cups. And while eating more than the 2-3 cups
limit of salad certainly isn't the worse thing one could eat too much
of, it is a misrepresentation to suggest that doing that is what
Atkins said should be done on induction.

Well, I think 2-3 cups of salad *is* a big salad. Huge really. I
might put a cup of baby greens on a plate, a couple slices of tomato or
onion or cucumber, then some dressing. It only gets up to "two cups"
if you add in the egg salad or hard boiled eggs or cheese or meats or
whatever else.

Two cups of just fresh veggies is a lot. If I make a salad *that* big,
I pretty much eat it for two meals... cause I just don't finish it all
at once.

Quoted message said:

Isn;t it better to just
follow a simple, explicit plan?

I agree... but none of the books have a simple, explicit plan that
works for *me*. My homegrown one does though.

I'm currently "off" my homegrown plan primarily because of veggies...
because it's pretty much all I'm interested in lately. I am relatively
certain I'm not currently eating enough protein.

I hope I am in this mood when my garden starts producing. Meanwhile,
I'm ordering too much seed from the catalogs and planning too
ambitiously because I'm just craving veggies constantly.

For the long-term, I think a simple plan does *not* work... because of
changes like these. Induction is no biggie, as it's only two weeks - a
simple plan for two weeks is fine.

OWL is a bigger deal because it can be up to *years* for some folks.

And of course, then there's maintenance, which should be lifelong. I
don't think a simple plan works nearly so well for the long run as
educating yourself regarding all the different plans, what research has
shown since the books were written, and what your meter shows if you're
diabetic, etc. so you can make choices on-the-fly rather than following
a plan.

I guess the closest thing to my own low-carb "bible" is the FAQ for
this newsgroup, which includes lots of info about all the various
plans, links to research, and the experience of gobs of bright
low-carbers who went before us. I pretty much go through the whole
thing every year or so to remind myself all the bits that matter. I
don't reread Atkins... or the Eades... or Bernstein... that often.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some people wind up constipated for a variety of reasons, with or
without vegs and some don't. I've had days when I did induction where
I didn't eat a lot of vegs and have never been constipated. The OP
didn't complain about constipation.

I think the high level of fat in most low-carb diets pretty much takes
care of this even without fiber from veggies.

If that were the case, then none would ever become constipated while LCing
on mainly good tasting fatty meats. Since some do, you can't say that high
levels of fat consumption prevent constipation. Perhaps fiber intake
doesn't either, but my experience is that it does. Whenver I've done almost
zero fiber carb intakes, I've always ended up constipated. Furthermore, a
lot of fibrous veggies seem to stimulate the gut to cause people to be more
regular.

Quoted message said:

The veggies are mostly for nutrients.

That is certainly a major benefit, but I'm not convinced it's the only one.

Quoted message said:

And for flavor. I think a meat-and-dairy only plan would be hard to
stick too for long. You get a lot of flavor when you add veggies and
herbs to your diet.

Myself... lately, I am not in a meat mood. Meat is more of a seasoning
than a food. Like... I cook a hamburger, not because I want the
hamburger, but because I want the grease to cook a pile of mushrooms
and onions in.

Maybe I'm just tired of meat after years of low-carbing. I'm actively
having to pay attention to getting enough protein cause I've kinda lost
interest.

Making grocery lists... I think, "Well, yeah chicken is on sale, but I
don't really want chicken." And it being the wrong time of year for
fresh produce, everything is shipped in from elsewhere and therefore
expensive. While I am normally quite frugal, lately it's been a big
old splurge on fresh produce and to damned with the cost.

Quoted message said:

The definition of a big salad is pretty open, I think it would usually
be a lot more than 2-3 cups. And while eating more than the 2-3 cups
limit of salad certainly isn't the worse thing one could eat too much
of, it is a misrepresentation to suggest that doing that is what
Atkins said should be done on induction.

Well, I think 2-3 cups of salad *is* a big salad. Huge really. I
might put a cup of baby greens on a plate, a couple slices of tomato or
onion or cucumber, then some dressing. It only gets up to "two cups"
if you add in the egg salad or hard boiled eggs or cheese or meats or
whatever else.

Two cups of just fresh veggies is a lot. If I make a salad *that* big,
I pretty much eat it for two meals... cause I just don't finish it all
at once.

That's curious and interesting. Two cups of lettuce or spinach provide
almost not calories. Two cups of broccoli provides very few calories but
does provide some fiber, which can be filling. But in terms of energy, it
doesn't do much.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Isn;t it better to just
follow a simple, explicit plan?

I agree... but none of the books have a simple, explicit plan that
works for *me*. My homegrown one does though.

Quoted message said:

I'm currently "off" my homegrown plan primarily because of veggies...
because it's pretty much all I'm interested in lately. I am relatively
certain I'm not currently eating enough protein.

I know this might sound sexist and I don't mean to come off that way....but
I always get this notion or idea that a lot of females I encounter (in my
limited part of existence) tend to shy away from meat and lean more toward
veggies and grain based foods (not speaking of strict LCers here, just
general females). This could be my imagination or perhaps some cultural
thing. What do you think? Obviously, there are male vegetarians too, so
I'm sure there are many exceptions to my notions. Still, it seems that the
typically smaller female tends more readily towards a meatless diet than
does the typically heavier male. But, maybe I'm nuts.

Quoted message said:

I hope I am in this mood when my garden starts producing. Meanwhile,
I'm ordering too much seed from the catalogs and planning too
ambitiously because I'm just craving veggies constantly.

For the long-term, I think a simple plan does *not* work... because of
changes like these. Induction is no biggie, as it's only two weeks - a
simple plan for two weeks is fine.

OWL is a bigger deal because it can be up to *years* for some folks.

And of course, then there's maintenance, which should be lifelong. I
don't think a simple plan works nearly so well for the long run as
educating yourself regarding all the different plans, what research has
shown since the books were written, and what your meter shows if you're
diabetic, etc. so you can make choices on-the-fly rather than following
a plan.

I guess the closest thing to my own low-carb "bible" is the FAQ for
this newsgroup, which includes lots of info about all the various
plans, links to research, and the experience of gobs of bright
low-carbers who went before us. I pretty much go through the whole
thing every year or so to remind myself all the bits that matter. I
don't reread Atkins... or the Eades... or Bernstein... that often.