Stage 8: Astana tactics

Very difficult to understand the tactic.
It would have seemed logical for Kloden to have tried to get back to the Moreau group.
He was going well - he was at the head of his group piling on the speed.
Vino had difficulty staying with the group as Kloden pulled.
Vino dropped a couple of metres every time Kloden accelerated.

It was obvious that Kloden was either told or voluntarily slowed to stay with Vino.
They embraced crossing the line.

Personally I think Vino was hurt badly in that crash and that he's finding it hard to recover and I'm assuming that he won't be a threat on GC in two weeks time.
I think Kloden may have lost his chance on GC for a TDF title yesterday.

limerickman said:

Very difficult to understand the tactic.
It would have seemed logical for Kloden to have tried to get back to the Moreau group.
He was going well - he was at the head of his group piling on the speed.
Vino had difficulty staying with the group as Kloden pulled.
Vino dropped a couple of metres every time Kloden accelerated.

It was obvious that Kloden was either told or voluntarily slowed to stay with Vino.
They embraced crossing the line.

Personally I think Vino was hurt badly in that crash and that he's finding it hard to recover and I'm assuming that he won't be a threat on GC in two weeks time.
I think Kloden may have lost his chance on GC for a TDF title yesterday.

Do you think Klodi's contract is to all out help Vino in 2007 with the promise of it working the other way in 2008?

Thats my only explanation other than Kloden was offered a fortune to be a super domestique plus a win in Tirraneo Adriatico

Anyways Kloden has gone way down in my estimation. Loyal and all that but there's a lot to be said for having a champion's mentality

I hope a decision is made today about the possibilities of Koden taking the lead because I believe this is tour of poise and consistency and by that I think Kloden still has an excellent chance.

Klöden cannot be forced to wait for Vino again. If he carcks on Tuesday and Klodi has to wait then its over for klodi. If they ride in the main group tuesday. They can both get more recovery before the TT. Anything can happen there. If Kloedi puts time into vino he could be astana leader, if not he will have to be domestique.

wicklow200 said:

Do you think Klodi's contract is to all out help Vino in 2007 with the promise of it working the other way in 2008?

Thats my only explanation other than Kloden was offered a fortune to be a super domestique plus a win in Tirraneo Adriatico

Anyways Kloden has gone way down in my estimation. Loyal and all that but there's a lot to be said for having a champion's mentality

Hard to know Wicklow :

the commentators on ES made the point yesterday that by dropping back Kloden was doing the job of protecting Vino - which is what Kloden said he's do before the start of the TDF.

My thinking is that if Vino isn't strong enough (because of the crash), then Kloden should be allowed to ride for himself.

limerickman said:

Hard to know Wicklow :

the commentators on ES made the point yesterday that by dropping back Kloden was doing the job of protecting Vino - which is what Kloden said he's do before the start of the TDF.

My thinking is that if Vino isn't strong enough (because of the crash), then Kloden should be allowed to ride for himself.

Perhaps Kloden has a fear of being the designated team leader and is more comfortable working for others. Last year when the team was his he seemed like a fish out of water. Some people just don't have it in em.

The Double Zero said:

Perhaps Kloden has a fear of being the designated team leader and is more comfortable working for others. Last year when the team was his he seemed like a fish out of water. Some people just don't have it in em.

Fair point - and not an unreasonable one either.

Last year he was thrown into an unusual situation because of Puerto and still did well.
There are some that know him well and have ridden with him that tell me they have doubts about his resolve.
I still believe he could win this tour if given support.

The riding after the rest day will tell us more on Vino's condition. The TDF is long and we are just beginning. There is maybe the possibility of Klodi exploding with his injury too, if it is really a cracked tailbone... What's the word on that?
With Vino's past of being able to climb with the best, he could rebound quickly. So far we have seen climbing stages being rather passive, or maybe the correct word is " careful."

It's way too early to change a team's objective with no team really taking a leadership role in this years race.

wolfix said:

The riding after the rest day will tell us more on Vino's condition. The TDF is long and we are just beginning. There is maybe the possibility of Klodi exploding with his injury too, if it is really a cracked tailbone... What's the word on that?
With Vino's past of being able to climb with the best, he could rebound quickly. So far we have seen climbing stages being rather passive, or maybe the correct word is " careful."

It's way too early to change a team's objective with no team really taking a leadership role in this years race.

It is early but Astana cannot afford to let Rasmussen or anyone else put in big time gaps that cannot be recovered in a TT and hope to win.

wolfix said:

The riding after the rest day will tell us more on Vino's condition. The TDF is long and we are just beginning. There is maybe the possibility of Klodi exploding with his injury too, if it is really a cracked tailbone... What's the word on that?
With Vino's past of being able to climb with the best, he could rebound quickly. So far we have seen climbing stages being rather passive, or maybe the correct word is " careful."

It's way too early to change a team's objective with no team really taking a leadership role in this years race.

Agreed : it is early days and a lot can (and will) happen over the next two weeks, so Vino does have a chance to recover.

jhuskey said:

Last year he was thrown into an unusual situation because of Puerto and still did well.
There are some that know him well and have ridden with him that tell me they have doubts about his resolve.
I still believe he could win this tour if given support.

I think that is the problem JH.
Kloden's always been an enigma, for me.

On his day, he's a superb rider : his timetrialling, his climbing, all first class.
So there's no question about his class.

I've always wondered about his motivation though.
He seems to me to be the type of guy who would get more of a kick from cycling perfectly, than actually winning a race.
And maybe the added pressure of being made team leader may not sit with him well.
There's no shame in wanting to work for Ully or Vino or whoever : but to win the TDF, a rider needs to have belief.

Klöden in his web diary today says he understands why some of the fans may be unhappy he decided to wait for Vino, but says that cycling is a team sport.

Jan the man said:

Klöden in his web diary today says he understands why some of the fans may be unhappy he decided to wait for Vino, but says that cycling is a team sport.

I read that too. And from Biver's comments today reaffirming all for Vino, I am losing faith that Kloden will even make the podium. He basically only has his TT to make an impact but if he has to continue sacrificing time working for Vino when Kash has been given the green light to go ahead, then, well, the writting is on the wall, as they say. And Klodi saying basically he will be satisfied with one, meaning Vino, making podium, b/c he (klodi) is content with the feeling that he helped get him there, that is not champion's mentality. I disappointed when he went to Astana end of last season, and this is why.

i think this is now made cleared: klodi is super domestique for vino, will do all for vino victory b/c astana all knows klodi is strongest, stronger than kash, so use the strongest to pull vino to victory instead of letting strongest klodi victory for himself. one problem, vino is too injured and already not riding in top form (DL) so all will sacrifice for no tour victory, sink swim with vino. very sad b/c this was perfect year for andreas.

Klodifan said:

I read that too. And from Biver's comments today reaffirming all for Vino, I am losing faith that Kloden will even make the podium. He basically only has his TT to make an impact but if he has to continue sacrificing time working for Vino when Kash has been given the green light to go ahead, then, well, the writting is on the wall, as they say. And Klodi saying basically he will be satisfied with one, meaning Vino, making podium, b/c he (klodi) is content with the feeling that he helped get him there, that is not champion's mentality. I disappointed when he went to Astana end of last season, and this is why.

i think this is now made cleared: klodi is super domestique for vino, will do all for vino victory b/c astana all knows klodi is strongest, stronger than kash, so use the strongest to pull vino to victory instead of letting strongest klodi victory for himself. one problem, vino is too injured and already not riding in top form (DL) so all will sacrifice for no tour victory, sink swim with vino. very sad b/c this was perfect year for andreas.

If Kloeden wants to be the leader, then he must raise his own corporate money or find his own billionaire to underwrite him. As Lemond did, as Armstrong did, as Landis did, as Vino did.

Those are the brutal financial rules of corporate marketing. Le Tour is NOT a sporting event---it is an advertising show featuring brands.

Kloeden is a foreigner/guest in Vino's Astana Opera House.

Doctor.House said:

If Kloeden wants to be the leader, then he must raise his own corporate money or find his own billionaire to underwrite him. As Lemond did, as Armstrong did, as Landis did, as Vino did.

Those are the brutal financial rules of corporate marketing. Le Tour is NOT a sporting event---it is an advertising show featuring brands.

Kloeden is a foreigner/guest in Vino's Astana Opera House.

Maybe there is some truth in what you write about, but I try not to be so cynical. That doesn't mean I am ignorant of real world, but I want to believe in the greatness that can come from overcoming huge obstacles. I won't look to Le tour as commercial but as grand metaphor of life.

Klodifan said:

Maybe there is some truth in what you write about, but I try not to be so cynical. That doesn't mean I am ignorant of real world, but I want to believe in the greatness that can come from overcoming huge obstacles. I won't look to Le tour as commercial but as grand metaphor of life.

Le Tour is a brutal metaphor of life. What goes on BEHIND the stage is the whole point in life. The actual presentation (appearance) is irrelevant--except for the dramatic theater. Instead, the doping preparations, the team tactics, ride contracts/duties, financing, marketing goals and leadership are predetermined.

And money trumps talent. Always has, always will.

Nothing cynical about that whatsoever. That's what survival of the fitest is based upon. In a civilized world wealth calls all of the shots. (eg: If Kloeden did not drop back to help his boss, Vino---he would be punished, just as Greg Lemond would have been by Bernard Tapie in 1985)

Bully people with lawsuits, threats, free speech, bribe or discredit people who threaten your income streams, pursue lobbies and federal exemptions, etc..

Lance had his enemies and he fought them with money, attorneys, media threats, endorsement boycotts (Greg Lemond vrs Trek bikes, Bell helmets), media room lockouts, blackballing, withholding bonuses (Cedric vassuer), dumping blood bags (Roid Landis), name calling trolls (David Walsh), lies (Betsy Andreu, Mike Anderson)

Le Tour is a marketing show presented as Corinthian Sport. Of course, that is a false premise. But it sells $300 Nike sneakers. The truth does not.

The notion that 'fairness' or 'nice guys' win in this business is preposterous.

maybe its payback. 2005 Vino got chased down by Kloden (who dragged Jan with him) and this year Vino is letting him know what its like to be the stronger but restrained rider.

hoggy said:

maybe its payback. 2005 Vino got chased down by Kloden (who dragged Jan with him) and this year Vino is letting him know what its like to be the stronger but restrained rider.

Mostly about who is your daddy. About who signs your paychecks.

Vino is the boss. Kloeden is the hired help.