Sprint bikes

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 20:31:10 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A Zabriskie over a course in excess of three miles stands a good
chance against a race horse--again, as long as the horse carries 120
pounds of rider and saddle.

I've read that the fastest horses recorded were being ridden, not
"riding solo". Maybe it's just the motivation of the jockey (plus the
jockey does contribute somewhat to the propulsion, though not in
proportion to his weight).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Dear Mark,

Psychology (and riding whips) apart, how does the jockey contribute
anything positive to the propulsion? Improved aerodynamics?

Jockeys weigh in and weigh out, before and after the race, suggesting
that people with strong financial interests believe that extra weight
is a handicap:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=260-44-120

"An average thoroughbred weighs about 1,100 pounds. The jockey trying
to control him is not allowed to tip the scales in the buff above 111
pounds."
http://www.workerscompinsider.com/archives/000340.html

Adding a 20-lb monkey to a 200-lb human sprinter's back doesn't seem
likely to improve his time in the 100 meter dash. The same force will
accelerate a larger mass more slowly.

Of course, an unmotivated sprinter and a monkey armed with a cattle
prod might produce interesting results, but that's psychology, not
physics.

To be fair to real jockeys, much of their success depends on knowing
how a particular horse will respond to whips, reins, and so forth.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Mark Hickey said:

I've read that the fastest horses recorded were being ridden, not
"riding solo". Maybe it's just the motivation of the jockey (plus the
jockey does contribute somewhat to the propulsion, though not in
proportion to his weight).

Without the jockey, the horse doesn't know if it's a quarter or a full
mile race. If the horses were being chased by a predator I bet they'd
be faster without the saddle and rider.

"Diablo Scott" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey said:

I've read that the fastest horses recorded were being ridden, not
"riding solo". Maybe it's just the motivation of the jockey (plus

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

jockey does contribute somewhat to the propulsion, though not in
proportion to his weight).

Without the jockey, the horse doesn't know if it's a quarter or a full
mile race. If the horses were being chased by a predator I bet they'd
be faster without the saddle and rider.

Horses naturally like to run and perhaps race with each other. Some
breeds more so than others. Racing and military horses have been
selectively bred for those qualities for millennia.

Chas.

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've read that the fastest horses recorded were being ridden, not
"riding solo". Maybe it's just the motivation of the jockey (plus the
jockey does contribute somewhat to the propulsion, though not in
proportion to his weight).

Dear Mark,

Psychology (and riding whips) apart, how does the jockey contribute
anything positive to the propulsion? Improved aerodynamics?

Jockeys weigh in and weigh out, before and after the race, suggesting
that people with strong financial interests believe that extra weight
is a handicap:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.aspx?cite=260-44-120

"An average thoroughbred weighs about 1,100 pounds. The jockey trying
to control him is not allowed to tip the scales in the buff above 111
pounds."
http://www.workerscompinsider.com/archives/000340.html

Adding a 20-lb monkey to a 200-lb human sprinter's back doesn't seem
likely to improve his time in the 100 meter dash. The same force will
accelerate a larger mass more slowly.

Of course, this is an apples and oranges comparison - humans don't use
the length of their torso to create propulsion, while a horse does.

Quoted message said:

Of course, an unmotivated sprinter and a monkey armed with a cattle
prod might produce interesting results, but that's psychology, not
physics.

I've ridden horses only a few times in my life, and never "in anger",
so I'm hardly capable of discerning the details. OTOH, when you
consider that jockeys have tested as the most "fit" of all types of
athletes, and that the huge amounts of energy they put into a horse
race has to go "somewhere", I can only assume that it is somehow
contributing toward forward motion of the horse.

Quoted message said:

To be fair to real jockeys, much of their success depends on knowing
how a particular horse will respond to whips, reins, and so forth.

Maybe it's a bit like the huge fighter in 'Thunderdome' (a very, very
odd concept).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 06:11:57 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've ridden horses only a few times in my life, and never "in anger",
so I'm hardly capable of discerning the details. OTOH, when you
consider that jockeys have tested as the most "fit" of all types of
athletes, and that the huge amounts of energy they put into a horse
race has to go "somewhere", I can only assume that it is somehow

Quoted message said:

Mark Hickey

Dear Mark,

The jockey could thrash around just as much on a rocking chair without
moving it an inch forward.

The driver banging on the horn doesn't actually push the car forward.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Joe Riel said:

Kinky Cowboy said:

Joe Riel said:

Don't forget, however, that the running sprinters start from
a gun, rather than at their discretion. A minor effect, to
be sure...

Track sprinters start from a 'gun', and have a mechanical device
holding them until it goes off. Horses too are mechanically restrained
until the starter tells them to go.

Runners are penalised for a false start if they apply pressure to the
blocks less than 0.11s after the gun, but the best start in about 0.2s

Thanks for the correction. Does the starting device for a cyclist
also test for "anticipating" the gun? Or does it actually restrain
the bike (I had assumed the bike was merely held up, not restrained).
For the race against the clock it would be easier, I think, to just
start the timer when the athlete moves forward. Isn't that what
happens with (solo) ski racers (i.e. timing starts when they break the
gate)?

Yes, the track cycling start device has both a clamp around the
seatpost and a clamp braking the rear wheel. There's an example of the
type at
http://www.alge-timing.com/alge/download/brochure/Cycling/ST-BMS1-PE.pdf

No mention on that site of a delay between the "beep" or bang which
says go and the machine releasing the bike, and since the common
practice is to count down with one beep tone to a final different one
which means go, a kilo rider can probably start on rhythm the way
dragster pilots do by watching the Christmas tree lights. That would
allow him to start moving on the exact instant that the timing starts
(Due to the way the timing works, dragsters may actually move up to a
foot before the go signal without getting a false start, but their
timing, like the skiers, is triggered by their leaving the gate.)

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:00:34 -0700, "* * Chas" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 25 Jul 2006 23:44:38 -0700, "Jenny Brien"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

>Some years ago I saw a TV stunt where a guy on a faired recumbent

beat

Quoted message said:

>a racehorse over a quarter mile. If I recall correctly, Jesse

Owens

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>used to do a similar feat over a shorter distance.
>
>>From a standing mstart on the flat, what is the least distance in

which

Quoted message said:

>a cyclist could expect to overtake a sprint athlete of similar

ability.

Quoted message said:

>I would expect it to be impossible in 100 metres, and unlikely in

200.

Quoted message said:

>What sort of bike would give the best advastage? There seems to be

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>fine balance between getting close to the athletes initial

acceleration

Quoted message said:

>and reaching a high enough top speed to close him down quickly

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he

Quoted message said:

>reaches maximun at 60 metres or so.

Dear Jenny,

When Owens beat a horse, it was partly because he was one the the
world's greatest sprinters and partly a variation of an old

gambler's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trick:

"There's no way a man can beat a horse, even over 100 yards," he
[Owens] explained. "The secret is, first, get a thoroughbred

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they are the most nervous animals on earth. Then get the biggest

gun

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you can and make sure the starter fires that big gun right by the
nervous thoroughbred's ear. By the time the jockey gets the horse
settled down, I could cover about 50 yards and win, which I did."

Chided for "stooping" to such a level, he replied: "People said it

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

degrading. I had four gold medals but I couldn't eat them. I had to

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what I could and there weren't any of the benefits they have today,
particularly for people of my color."

http://6news.kusports.com/news/columns/story/110938

Something similar is likely to be true of a faired bicycle--given

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

equal start, the bicycle is unlikely to have any chance.

Olympic sprinters reach about 27 mph around 70 meters down the

track

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the 100-meter dash.

The Kentucky Derby record for the 1st quarter-mile (1320 feet) is

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

under 22 seconds--an average of 40.9 mph from a standing start:

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/kyderbyhorses1.html

And that's with a full mile left to go.

The world record for a flying 500 meters for a diamond frame is

26.7

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

seconds--an average of 42.0 mph from a flying start for 1640 feet:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/oct96/records.html

A faired recumbent is heavier, so it's not going to accelerate even

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

well as an ordinary bike from a dead stop. Typically, they have

very

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

high gearing and take up to five miles to reach top speed for a

short

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

speed trap.

As for a sprinter against a bicycle, the distance will be fairly
short, as you suppose. After about 70 meters, sprinters slow down

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

about 25-27 mph, while the bicycle is still accelerating to a

steady

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

speed over 30 mph.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

The All-American Futurity at Ruidoso Downs Racetrack in New Mexico is
the world's richest Quarter Horse race with a total purse of $2

million.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's a straight quarter mile drag race.

Quarter horses are commonly believed to be the world's fastest horses
over short distances, some having been clocked at 55 mph.

Ride on.....

Chas.

Dear Chas,

The devil is in the details.

In 1996, a quarter horse finally broke 21 seconds for 1320 feet,
Evening Snow at 20.94:

http://www.aqha.com/racing/handicapping/firsttimers/thehorse.html

That's 42.9 mph. He may have been going 55 mph well down the track
(28% faster), but you can see how this sort of thing gets confusing.

It's similar to a 10-second 100m dash, which is an average speed of
22.4 mph for sprinters who are commonly thought to reach 27 mph at
about 70 meters (20% faster).

That's why standing-start sprint records are usually given in elapsed
time, which has been easily measured for over a century, instead of
top speed, which is still a bit tricky to measure.

A baseball is fairly easy to measure with a speed gun (given a lot of
practice behind the batter), but speed guns can give very odd readings
on irregular objects with feet, hands, or hooves whipping forward much
faster than the body.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

This horse is dying, maybe we should stop beating it..... ;-0

Chas.

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:57:54 -0700, "* * Chas" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 13:00:34 -0700, "* * Chas" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> On 25 Jul 2006 23:44:38 -0700, "Jenny Brien"
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
> >Some years ago I saw a TV stunt where a guy on a faired recumbent
beat
> >a racehorse over a quarter mile. If I recall correctly, Jesse

Owens

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >used to do a similar feat over a shorter distance.
> >
> >>From a standing mstart on the flat, what is the least distance in
which
> >a cyclist could expect to overtake a sprint athlete of similar
ability.
> >I would expect it to be impossible in 100 metres, and unlikely in
200.
> >What sort of bike would give the best advastage? There seems to be

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >fine balance between getting close to the athletes initial
acceleration
> >and reaching a high enough top speed to close him down quickly

when

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

he
> >reaches maximun at 60 metres or so.
>
> Dear Jenny,
>
> When Owens beat a horse, it was partly because he was one the the
> world's greatest sprinters and partly a variation of an old

gambler's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> trick:
>
> "There's no way a man can beat a horse, even over 100 yards," he
> [Owens] explained. "The secret is, first, get a thoroughbred

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> they are the most nervous animals on earth. Then get the biggest

gun

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> you can and make sure the starter fires that big gun right by the
> nervous thoroughbred's ear. By the time the jockey gets the horse
> settled down, I could cover about 50 yards and win, which I did."
>
> Chided for "stooping" to such a level, he replied: "People said it

was

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> degrading. I had four gold medals but I couldn't eat them. I had to

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> what I could and there weren't any of the benefits they have today,
> particularly for people of my color."
>
> http://6news.kusports.com/news/columns/story/110938
>
> Something similar is likely to be true of a faired bicycle--given

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> equal start, the bicycle is unlikely to have any chance.
>
> Olympic sprinters reach about 27 mph around 70 meters down the

track

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> in the 100-meter dash.
>
> The Kentucky Derby record for the 1st quarter-mile (1320 feet) is

just

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> under 22 seconds--an average of 40.9 mph from a standing start:
>
> http://www.infoplease.com/spot/kyderbyhorses1.html
>
> And that's with a full mile left to go.
>
> The world record for a flying 500 meters for a diamond frame is

26.7

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> seconds--an average of 42.0 mph from a flying start for 1640 feet:
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/oct96/records.html
>
> A faired recumbent is heavier, so it's not going to accelerate even

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> well as an ordinary bike from a dead stop. Typically, they have

very

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> high gearing and take up to five miles to reach top speed for a

short

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> speed trap.
>
> As for a sprinter against a bicycle, the distance will be fairly
> short, as you suppose. After about 70 meters, sprinters slow down

from

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> about 25-27 mph, while the bicycle is still accelerating to a

steady

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> speed over 30 mph.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

The All-American Futurity at Ruidoso Downs Racetrack in New Mexico is
the world's richest Quarter Horse race with a total purse of $2

million.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's a straight quarter mile drag race.

Quarter horses are commonly believed to be the world's fastest horses
over short distances, some having been clocked at 55 mph.

Ride on.....

Chas.

Dear Chas,

The devil is in the details.

In 1996, a quarter horse finally broke 21 seconds for 1320 feet,
Evening Snow at 20.94:

http://www.aqha.com/racing/handicapping/firsttimers/thehorse.html

That's 42.9 mph. He may have been going 55 mph well down the track
(28% faster), but you can see how this sort of thing gets confusing.

It's similar to a 10-second 100m dash, which is an average speed of
22.4 mph for sprinters who are commonly thought to reach 27 mph at
about 70 meters (20% faster).

That's why standing-start sprint records are usually given in elapsed
time, which has been easily measured for over a century, instead of
top speed, which is still a bit tricky to measure.

A baseball is fairly easy to measure with a speed gun (given a lot of
practice behind the batter), but speed guns can give very odd readings
on irregular objects with feet, hands, or hooves whipping forward much
faster than the body.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

This horse is dying, maybe we should stop beating it..... ;-0

Chas.

Dear Chas,

A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!

Cheers,

R. Gloucester

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Jenny Brien said:

Some years ago I saw a TV stunt where a guy on a faired recumbent beat
a racehorse over a quarter mile. If I recall correctly, Jesse Owens
used to do a similar feat over a shorter distance.

Quoted message said:

From a standing mstart on the flat, what is the least distance in which

a cyclist could expect to overtake a sprint athlete of similar ability.
I would expect it to be impossible in 100 metres, and unlikely in 200.
What sort of bike would give the best advastage? There seems to be a
fine balance between getting close to the athletes initial acceleration
and reaching a high enough top speed to close him down quickly when he
reaches maximun at 60 metres or so.

Human runners can out run almost any animal over distance.
Some say human runners can even out run dogs over
distance, but I am not convinced.

Here is a report of a 22 mile race won by a man versus
horses.
<http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/mid/3801177.stm>

Basically humans can run/jog continuously for hours. We
appear to be adapted for running, and that the running
adaptations are little used in walking.

<http://www.discover.com/issues/may-06/features/tramps-like
-us/>

" The traits appear to be specifically adapted for
runningand for jogging for long distances. So Bramble and
Lieberman were not at all surprised that a man won the Man
Versus Horse Marathon. It fits their hypothesis. Unlike
many mammals, not to mention primates, people are
astonishingly successful endurance runners, "and I don't
think it's just a fluke," Lieberman says. He and Bramble
argue that not only can humans outlast horses, but over
long distances and under the right conditions, they can
also outrun just about any other animal on the
planetincluding dogs, wolves, hyenas, and antelope, the
other great endurance runners. From our abundant sweat
glands to our Achilles tendons, from our big knee joints
to our muscular glutei maximi, human bodies are
beautifully tuned running machines. "We're loaded top to
bottom with all these features, many of which don't have
any role in walking," Lieberman says. Our anatomy suggests
that running down prey was once a way of life that ensured
hominid survival millions of years ago on the African
savanna."

You can run down a jack rabbit in an open field with no
tunnels for it to enter.

--
Michael Press

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Jenny Brien said:

Some years ago I saw a TV stunt where a guy on a faired recumbent beat
a racehorse over a quarter mile. If I recall correctly, Jesse Owens
used to do a similar feat over a shorter distance.

Quoted message said:

From a standing mstart on the flat, what is the least distance in which

a cyclist could expect to overtake a sprint athlete of similar ability.
I would expect it to be impossible in 100 metres, and unlikely in 200.
What sort of bike would give the best advastage? There seems to be a
fine balance between getting close to the athletes initial acceleration
and reaching a high enough top speed to close him down quickly when he
reaches maximun at 60 metres or so.

Human runners can out run almost any animal over distance.
Some say human runners can even out run dogs over
distance, but I am not convinced.

At what distance? I've mountain biked 30 mile rides with my friend's boxer,
he kept up with us cyclists with no problems and boxers aren't that great of
runners. He did struggle a little on the descents compared to us.

Greg

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 06:11:57 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've ridden horses only a few times in my life, and never "in anger",
so I'm hardly capable of discerning the details. OTOH, when you
consider that jockeys have tested as the most "fit" of all types of
athletes, and that the huge amounts of energy they put into a horse
race has to go "somewhere", I can only assume that it is somehow

The jockey could thrash around just as much on a rocking chair without
moving it an inch forward.

The driver banging on the horn doesn't actually push the car forward.

Still,

1) A horse with a jockey goes faster
2) Jockeys are arguably the fittest athletes on the planet
3) Why would they bother getting in shape (adding muscle and weight)
if it didn't help?

I dunno enough about horse racing to continue this thread, so I'll
gladly give you the last word.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

Kinky Cowboy said:

No mention on that site of a delay between the "beep" or bang which
says go and the machine releasing the bike, and since the common
practice is to count down with one beep tone to a final different one
which means go, a kilo rider can probably start on rhythm the way
dragster pilots do by watching the Christmas tree lights. That would
allow him to start moving on the exact instant that the timing starts
(Due to the way the timing works, dragsters may actually move up to a
foot before the go signal without getting a false start, but their
timing, like the skiers, is triggered by their leaving the gate.)

That would make the races a lot fairer, IMHO. When you see a sprinter
false start twice AFTER the gun both times, and by a fraction of a
tenth of a second, you have to wonder how fair the arbitrary "delay"
really is.

I was once told that it was a sure money bet to offer to drop a dollar
(or other demonination) bill through a person's fingers, with their
fingers at the bottom of the bill - that they'd never catch it. But I
did regularly (sadly never won a bet doing it... sigh). Some people
just have faster reflexes than others, and it seems awfully random to
decide by committee what constitutes a "false start".

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 06:11:57 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've ridden horses only a few times in my life, and never "in anger",
so I'm hardly capable of discerning the details. OTOH, when you
consider that jockeys have tested as the most "fit" of all types of
athletes, and that the huge amounts of energy they put into a horse
race has to go "somewhere", I can only assume that it is somehow

The jockey could thrash around just as much on a rocking chair without
moving it an inch forward.

The driver banging on the horn doesn't actually push the car forward.

Still,

1) A horse with a jockey goes faster

Motivation.

Quoted message said:

2) Jockeys are arguably the fittest athletes on the planet

Arguably. Proponents of every sport have made that claim at some point in
time. And what is your definition of fittest?

Quoted message said:

3) Why would they bother getting in shape (adding muscle and weight)
if it didn't help?

I've followed horse racing a bit over the years and my future mother-in-law
used to own race horses, and I don't think jockey's make much of an effort
adding muscle and they definitely do not make an effort to add weight:

http://horseracing.about.com/library/weekly/aa072500a.htm

Greg

Mark Hickey said:

1) A horse with a jockey goes faster
2) Jockeys are arguably the fittest athletes on the planet
3) Why would they bother getting in shape (adding muscle and weight)
if it didn't help?

I would guess that being a jockey is physically taxing
(just holding the right position on a race horse, for ex)
and that being in shape helps them deal with that.
Recently, race car drivers have been getting a lot fitter
to deal with the physical demands of racing, yet
no-one would claim that their muscular efforts add
direct propulsion to the car.

In article <[email hidden]>,

G.T. said:

"Michael Press" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Jenny Brien said:

Some years ago I saw a TV stunt where a guy on a faired recumbent beat
a racehorse over a quarter mile. If I recall correctly, Jesse Owens
used to do a similar feat over a shorter distance.

>From a standing mstart on the flat, what is the least distance in which
a cyclist could expect to overtake a sprint athlete of similar ability.
I would expect it to be impossible in 100 metres, and unlikely in 200.
What sort of bike would give the best advastage? There seems to be a
fine balance between getting close to the athletes initial acceleration
and reaching a high enough top speed to close him down quickly when he
reaches maximun at 60 metres or so.

Human runners can out run almost any animal over distance.
Some say human runners can even out run dogs over
distance, but I am not convinced.

At what distance? I've mountain biked 30 mile rides with my friend's boxer,
he kept up with us cyclists with no problems and boxers aren't that great of
runners. He did struggle a little on the descents compared to us.

Horses over 20 miles.
African antelope over 20 miles.
Small cats over a mile.
Jack rabbits over a few hundred meters.

I expressed doubt that humans can out run dogs. Humans
_can_ out run most animals over distance.

--
Michael Press

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 18:56:23 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 06:11:57 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've ridden horses only a few times in my life, and never "in anger",
so I'm hardly capable of discerning the details. OTOH, when you
consider that jockeys have tested as the most "fit" of all types of
athletes, and that the huge amounts of energy they put into a horse
race has to go "somewhere", I can only assume that it is somehow

The jockey could thrash around just as much on a rocking chair without
moving it an inch forward.

The driver banging on the horn doesn't actually push the car forward.

Still,

1) A horse with a jockey goes faster
2) Jockeys are arguably the fittest athletes on the planet
3) Why would they bother getting in shape (adding muscle and weight)
if it didn't help?

I dunno enough about horse racing to continue this thread, so I'll
gladly give you the last word.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles

Dear Mark,

Er, jockeys are arguably the smallest athletes on the planet, barring
midget wrestlers, but they are not noted for their fitness.

The jockeys in question cling to saddles on the backs of thundering
thoroughbreds for two or three minutes. Young girls are paid to do
this as trainers.

Possibly you've confused the tortured efforts of jockeys to slim down
and make weight with physical conditioning?

Jockeys absolutely avoid "adding muscle and weight." They weigh around
110 pounds and aren't given horses to ride if they gain weight.

Indeed, their fear of gaining any weight leads jockeys to imitate the
worst habits of super-models:

"The study found methods of weight loss included wasting, laxative or
diuretic abuse and induced vomiting."
http://neovox.cortland.edu/oldsite/stadium/stadium_24/stadium_24.html

"Nobody vomits on camera — but you do see the "heaving bowl" at
Churchill Downs, installed alongside the toilet stalls for that very
reason. You see the burns Romero suffered when he accidentally caught
fire in the sauna at Oaklawn Park more than 20 years ago while rubbed
down with alcohol and oil for maximum weight loss. You see the bony
Rosier being profanely counseled to get in the sauna and cut weight in
time for a race."

"Welcome to racing's ugly underbelly — a side the riders want exposed
as a means of pressuring state racing commissions into increasing
their lightest race weights to around 118 pounds."
http://www.eatingdisordersonline.com/media/jockey.php

As for the "propulsion" claim, there simply isn't any physics by which
a jockey on the back of a horse can add to the force pushing the horse
forward--that's entirely up to the horse's muscles. A jockey can
encourage the horse, but even the whip is psychological.

Waving our arms will not push a bicycle forward. We have to push on
the pedals.

If you think of a question or comment, let's forget the last-word
stuff. I'm sympathetic because I think that you're simply dead wrong
in good faith, a situation that I know more about than--

Er, that I've often heard of.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Mark Hickey said:

Jockeys are arguably the fittest athletes on the planet

Really? That's surprising.

Sources, please.
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://udctours.com

"Mark Hickey" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 06:11:57 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>
wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I dunno enough about horse racing to continue this thread, so I'll
gladly give you the last word.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles

Dead horse = stop beating.... ;-)

Chas.

Quoting Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

1) A horse with a jockey goes faster
2) Jockeys are arguably the fittest athletes on the planet
3) Why would they bother getting in shape (adding muscle and weight)
if it didn't help?

Grand Prix drivers are often very fit these days, and their cars go faster
with a driver. Are you suggesting their muscular effort helps to propel
the cars?
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Oneiros, July.

Quoted message said:

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 18:56:23 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Still,

1) A horse with a jockey goes faster
2) Jockeys are arguably the fittest athletes on the planet
3) Why would they bother getting in shape (adding muscle and weight)
if it didn't help?

I dunno enough about horse racing to continue this thread, so I'll
gladly give you the last word.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles

Dear Mark,

Er, jockeys are arguably the smallest athletes on the planet, barring
midget wrestlers, but they are not noted for their fitness.

Uh huh...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

If you think of a question or comment, let's forget the last-word
stuff. I'm sympathetic because I think that you're simply dead wrong
in good faith, a situation that I know more about than--

Er, that I've often heard of.

Bill's right - you are a smarmy one.

Whatever. I read a report decades ago on the subject, and a
perfunctory google search turns up many references to the same
concept. But I have no horse in this race (pun intended) so I'll
simply ignore any other comments (partially because it's already taken
much more time than it's worth, and partially because I simply don't
care about the subject one way or the other).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame