Sportsmanship Question

I am a Lance supporter all the way and agree with his choice to continue to 'chase down' Vinokourov
yesterday. Though I also cannot see why Vinokourov should have slowed also as he was well away on
the break. It was not as if they were all in the same lead group and Vinokourov used the crash to
launch his attack.

God knows what Ullrich wanted but he might have been asking Lance if they should, like Lance did for
him, and this is where Lance pointed out that they couldnt afford to lose any more time to
Vinokourov.

Maybe if they had caught Vinokourov they might have been decided to wait to see what the status
of Beloki was, remember that Lance knows what it is like to have a team member die on a stage
of the TdF.

"Matt Cahill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that if Lance does anything remotely quetionable that there are dozens of people in
this group ready to call him a cheat, an ugly American, un-sportmanlike...whatever.

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed and the other only avoided crashing by some very nifty bike handling. You
could argue that he was ahead and didn't see it ... however doesn't he have a race radio like the
rest of the racers ?

According to some post race reports there was interaction between Lance and Ullrich which
indicated Ullrich wanted to slow down. But the chase group couldn't afford to stop with Vinokourov
attacking up the road.

"Matt Cahill" <[email hidden]> wrote>

Quoted message said:

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed and the other only avoided crashing by some very nifty bike handling. You
could argue that he was ahead and didn't see it ... however doesn't he have a race radio like the
rest of the racers ?

Vinokourov's attack started long before Beloki's crash, not because of it. And I can't imagine the
Telekom director calling him on the radio to tell him to shut down the attack and allow the others
to catch him simply because there had been a crash further back.

[email hidden] (Matt Cahill) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that if Lance does anything remotely quetionable that there are dozens of people in
this group ready to call him a cheat, an ugly American, un-sportmanlike...whatever.

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed and the other only avoided crashing by some very nifty bike handling. You
could argue that he was ahead and didn't see it ... however doesn't he have a race radio like the
rest of the racers ?

Vinokourov attacked *way* before Beloki crashed.
V. attacked on the ascent of the mountain.
W. crashed near the end of the descent down the same mountain. If you are in a solo break, you have
no obligation to slow down for someone who has crashed in the group behind you.

Quoted message said:

According to some post race reports there was interaction between Lance and Ullrich which
indicated Ullrich wanted to slow down. But the chase group couldn't afford to stop with Vinokourov
attacking up the road.

This is true. Ullrich wanted to slow down, to wait up for Beloki. But, LA saw the crash and new that
Beloki wouldn't be riding again any time soon. So he most likely told Ullrich the situation. Then
they got back to the business at hand, ie. chasing Vinokourov.

No bad sportsmanship on anyone's part, IMHO.

- Boyd S.

To answer your question about why so many trash Lance and attack his ethics and tactics: That is the
way it is in any of life's endeavors. Winners are always attacked. It goes with the territory.
Motives vary from jealousy to sour grapes to visible signs of the attacker's self doubts.

Just my opinion.

Steve Scarich

"Matt Cahill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that if Lance does anything remotely quetionable that there are dozens of people in
this group ready to call him a cheat, an ugly American, un-sportmanlike...whatever.

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed and the other only avoided crashing by some very nifty bike handling. You
could argue that he was ahead and didn't see it ... however doesn't he have a race radio like the
rest of the racers ?

According to some post race reports there was interaction between Lance and Ullrich which
indicated Ullrich wanted to slow down. But the chase group couldn't afford to stop with Vinokourov
attacking up the road.

At the time of the crash the gap to Vinokourov was 10-15 seconds and dropping. It appeared to me
that once Armstrong caught up with the lead group, they did slow down (Vino picked up 6 seconds in
the last kilo alone) They certainly weren't hammering as hard as they were before the crash. It
wasn't a matter of Vino attacking as much as the chase group letting up.

-T

I know that Vinokourov began his attack before the accident. According to cyclingnews.com, he
managed to extend his lead by another 21 seconds after the accident. I acknowledge he is in the
middle of trying to win one of the biggest stages in his life, the adrenaline is pumping, and he has
seconds to make an ethical decision. I really am not questioning the decision he made.

However, I strongly suspect that if the positions where reversed and Lance had extended a lead
during the race leaders misfortunes, the Lance bashers on this group would have been posting hate
mail before the race was even complete.

"Matt Cahill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that if Lance does anything remotely quetionable that there are dozens of people in
this group ready to call him a cheat, an ugly American, un-sportmanlike...whatever.

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed

Dumbass -

Vinokourov attacked when the race was going uphill. The crash happened on the downhill. He would
have no way of knowing what happened and even then breakaways do not stop because of crashes in
the chase.

It is only attacking crashes of those whom you are with that is verboten.

<< But, LA saw the crash and new that Beloki wouldn't be riding again any >>

Actually, Lance said he didn't think the crash looked that bad and that he thought Beloki would be
along in short order.

I suspect that the etiquette of the situation is different when a crash happens, say, 70 kms
from the finish versus when it happens 4 kms from the finish with a dangerous rival on the
attack up the road.

Bob C.

Bob C.

Quoted message said:

time soon.

"Boyd Speerschneider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Matt Cahill) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that if Lance does anything remotely quetionable that there are dozens of people in
this group ready to call him a cheat, an ugly American, un-sportmanlike...whatever.

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed and the other only avoided crashing by some very nifty bike handling.
You could argue that he was ahead and didn't see it ... however doesn't he have a race radio
like the rest of the racers ?

Vinokourov attacked *way* before Beloki crashed.
V. attacked on the ascent of the mountain.
B. crashed near the end of the descent down the same mountain. If you are in a solo break, you
have no obligation to slow down for someone who has crashed in the group behind you.

Quoted message said:

According to some post race reports there was interaction between Lance and Ullrich which
indicated Ullrich wanted to slow down. But the chase group couldn't afford to stop with
Vinokourov attacking up the road.

This is true. Ullrich wanted to slow down, to wait up for Beloki. But, LA saw the crash and new
that Beloki wouldn't be riding again any time soon. So he most likely told Ullrich the situation.
Then they got back to the business at hand, ie. chasing Vinokourov.

No bad sportsmanship on anyone's part, IMHO.

- Boyd S.

As I recall from 2001, Beloki sped past Lance as he waited for Ullrich after his crash, at which
point Lance was forced to pick up the pace.

Robert McMillen

"Robert Chambers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<< But, LA saw the crash and new that Beloki wouldn't be riding again any

Quoted message said:

Actually, Lance said he didn't think the crash looked that bad and that he thought Beloki would be
along in short order.

I suspect that the etiquette of the situation is different when a crash happens, say, 70 kms from
the finish versus when it happens 4 kms from the finish with a dangerous rival on the attack up
the road.

Bob C.

Bob C.

Quoted message said:

time soon.

"Boyd Speerschneider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Matt Cahill) wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that if Lance does anything remotely quetionable that there are dozens of people
in this group ready to call him a cheat, an ugly American, un-sportmanlike...whatever.

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed and the other only avoided crashing by some very nifty bike handling.
You could argue that he was ahead and didn't see it ... however doesn't he have a race radio
like the rest of the racers ?

Vinokourov attacked *way* before Beloki crashed.
V. attacked on the ascent of the mountain.
B. crashed near the end of the descent down the same mountain. If you are in a solo break, you
have no obligation to slow down for someone who has crashed in the group behind you.

Quoted message said:

According to some post race reports there was interaction between Lance and Ullrich which
indicated Ullrich wanted to slow down. But the chase group couldn't afford to stop with
Vinokourov attacking up the road.

This is true. Ullrich wanted to slow down, to wait up for Beloki. But, LA saw the crash and new
that Beloki wouldn't be riding again any time soon. So he most likely told Ullrich the
situation. Then they got back to the business at hand, ie. chasing Vinokourov.

No bad sportsmanship on anyone's part, IMHO.

- Boyd S.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main rivals
had just crashed and the other only avoided crashing by some very nifty bike handling. You could
argue that he was ahead and didn't see it ... however doesn't he have a race radio like the rest of
the racers ?

Vinokourov attacked well before the crash. No reason for him to let up.

Quoted message said:

According to some post race reports there was interaction between Lance and Ullrich which indicated
Ullrich wanted to slow down. But the chase group couldn't afford to stop with Vinokourov attacking
up the road.

If the guy goes down and it looks like he might get up again, you might wait. But when the guy goes
down as hard as Beloki did, you know he is not getting back on the bike. Even his own team mate can
be seen on the bike waiting to be told it is ok for him to continue. He knew Beloki was not going to
get back on the bike to finish the stage.
-----------------
Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)

"Robert Chambers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<< But, LA saw the crash and new that Beloki wouldn't be riding again any

Quoted message said:

Actually, Lance said he didn't think the crash looked that bad and that he thought Beloki would be
along in short order.

I suspect that the etiquette of the situation is different when a crash happens, say, 70 kms from
the finish versus when it happens 4 kms from the finish with a dangerous rival on the attack up
the road.

All best are off when it can't be universally agreed upon. There is no way that they would or should
wait unless they know that all of the top GC riders are waiting.

Quoted message said:

Bob C.

Bob C.

Quoted message said:

time soon.

"Boyd Speerschneider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Matt Cahill) wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that if Lance does anything remotely quetionable that there are dozens of people
in this group ready to call him a cheat, an ugly American, un-sportmanlike...whatever.

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed and the other only avoided crashing by some very nifty bike handling.
You could argue that he was ahead and didn't see it ... however doesn't he have a race radio
like the rest of the racers ?

Vinokourov attacked *way* before Beloki crashed.
V. attacked on the ascent of the mountain.
B. crashed near the end of the descent down the same mountain. If you are in a solo break, you
have no obligation to slow down for someone who has crashed in the group behind you.

Quoted message said:

According to some post race reports there was interaction between Lance and Ullrich which
indicated Ullrich wanted to slow down. But the chase group couldn't afford to stop with
Vinokourov attacking up the road.

This is true. Ullrich wanted to slow down, to wait up for Beloki. But, LA saw the crash and new
that Beloki wouldn't be riding again any time soon. So he most likely told Ullrich the
situation. Then they got back to the business at hand, ie. chasing Vinokourov.

No bad sportsmanship on anyone's part, IMHO.

- Boyd S.

1. You totally missed my point

2. You resorted to foul language when it was totally uncalled for. Perhaps you should work on your
vocabulary as this was your reply to another poster:

At least learn some new words to swear at people.

As I said in a followup post, I don't hold anything against what Vinokourov did. I'm simply pointing
out that had Lance done the same thing people would be lining up to criticize

Boyd Speerschneider <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Matt Cahill) wrote in :"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've noticed that if Lance does anything remotely quetionable that there are dozens of people in
this group ready to call him a cheat, an ugly American, un-sportmanlike...whatever.

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed and the other only avoided crashing by some very nifty bike handling.
You could argue that he was ahead and didn't see it ... however doesn't he have a race radio
like the rest of the racers ?

Vinokourov attacked *way* before Beloki crashed.
V. attacked on the ascent of the mountain.
B. crashed near the end of the descent down the same mountain. If you are in a solo break, you
have no obligation to slow down for someone who has crashed in the group behind you.

In fact Beloki crashed because he was taking risks on the descent trying to catch Vinokourov.

In the post-race interview Armstrong said Beloki "panicked", but then he retracted that, but
maintained they were "bombing" the descent.

I feel bad for Beloki, but I would feel worse if he had to abandon the Tour because of a mechanical
or crash that was out of his control.

-Amit

"Matt Cahill" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

1. You totally missed my point

2. You resorted to foul language when it was totally uncalled for. Perhaps you should work on your
vocabulary as this was your reply to another poster:

Quoted message said:

At least learn some new words to swear at people.

As I said in a followup post, I don't hold anything against what Vinokourov did. I'm simply
pointing out that had Lance done the same thing people would be lining up to criticize

Dumbass -

You said:

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed

And we all explained to you that Vino didn't do anything wrong. That is why no one is complaining.

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In fact Beloki crashed because he was taking risks on the descent trying to catch Vinokourov.

In the post-race interview Armstrong said Beloki "panicked", but then he retracted that, but
maintained they were "bombing" the descent.

I feel bad for Beloki, but I would feel worse if he had to abandon the Tour because of a
mechanical or crash that was out of his control.

-Amit

When Lance said Beloki "panicked" he was referring to Vino's break, not his handling of the bike.
Two things of note in the OLN clip of the day - Phil mentions how bad the conditions are in the
corners one turn before the crash and, from the Helo view you can see Lance braking / dropping back
well before Beloki loses it. If Lance was on his wheel he would have been history as well.

Alex Rodriguez said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Yet, I haven't seen one thread about the fact that Vinokourov attacked while one of his main
rivals had just crashed and the other only avoided crashing by some very nifty bike handling. You
could argue that he was ahead and didn't see it ... however doesn't he have a race radio like the
rest of the racers ?

Vinokourov attacked well before the crash. No reason for him to let up.

Quoted message said:

According to some post race reports there was interaction between Lance and Ullrich which
indicated Ullrich wanted to slow down. But the chase group couldn't afford to stop with Vinokourov
attacking up the road.

If the guy goes down and it looks like he might get up again, you might wait. But when the guy goes
down as hard as Beloki did, you know he is not getting back on the bike. Even his own team mate can
be seen on the bike waiting to be told it is ok for him to continue. He knew Beloki was not going
to get back on the bike to finish the stage.
-----------------
Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)

I think the point is that nobody attacked Beloki after the crash. Everyone was chasing Vinokourov at
the time. What are they supposed to do, stop riding, wait, and the him get 10 minutes? That would be
a dumbass move if I ever heard of one.

If all the GC contenders had been together when Beloki had fallen and they kept hammering then
people could [censored].

--

MT

Michael Thomas said:

I think the point is that nobody attacked Beloki after the crash. Everyone was chasing Vinokourov
at the time. What are they supposed to do, stop riding, wait, and the him get 10 minutes? That
would be a dumbass move if I ever heard of one.

Getting a 10 minute lead in the last 10km would be remarkable :-) Losing the further 21 seconds that
would have put Vino in yellow would have been unacceptable for USPS (my opinion). Lance certainly
tried to get the bonus seconds for 3rd place to address matters.

"Tom Schulenburg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Amit" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In fact Beloki crashed because he was taking risks on the descent trying to catch Vinokourov.

In the post-race interview Armstrong said Beloki "panicked", but then he retracted that, but
maintained they were "bombing" the descent.

I feel bad for Beloki, but I would feel worse if he had to abandon the Tour because of a
mechanical or crash that was out of his control.

-Amit

When Lance said Beloki "panicked" he was referring to Vino's break, not his handling of the bike.

Yes I agree. Beloki panicked when Vino was away and was taking more risks than usual on the descent.

Quoted message said:

Two things of note in the OLN clip of the day - Phil mentions how bad the conditions are in the
corners one turn before the crash and, from the Helo view you can see Lance braking / dropping
back well before Beloki loses it. If Lance was on his wheel he would have been history as well.

Yes, he probably sensed Beloki was going to fast.

-Amit