Spokes protruding from nipples?

(Pete Cresswell) said:

Just laced up and trued a wheel.

Got it nice and true with no hop and the spokes are reasonably equal in tension.

But I see that all but two of the spokes are protruding 2-3 turns past the end of the nipple. Not
a problem tube-wise because there's still plenty space.

But my kneejerk reaction is that I bought spokes that were ann or so bigger than I should have -
and that two of the spokes were the right size.

Comments?

I bet the two that were the "right size" are next to the seam, opposite from the valve. The reason
they don't protrude is not because they are shorter, but because there is (often) more rim
thickness there.

Yeah, the spokes were a bit too long. Live with it. No real harm done as long as there is plenty of
distance between spoke end and tube.\

You could grind them all down with a dremel.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | What is objectionable, and what is dangerous about extremists is _`\(,_ | not that they are
extreme, but that they are intolerant. (_)/ (_) | --Robert F. Kennedy

I agree but there has to be enough threads let to finish trueing the wheel.A friend had a set of
wheel build and then found out 6 months later when a whoble happened that the spoke were at there
end of threads . he was screwed,rethreaded all spokes the other gut who did it the first time was
out of biz ,wonder why,Just a thought.

--
J/O TrailBlazer at Large

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Pete Cresswell) said:

Just laced up and trued a wheel.

Got it nice and true with no hop and the spokes are reasonably equal in tension.

But I see that all but two of the spokes are protruding 2-3 turns past the end of the nipple.
Not a problem tube-wise because there's still plenty space.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I bet the two that were the "right size" are next to the seam, opposite from the valve. The reason
they don't protrude is not because they are shorter, but because there is (often) more rim
thickness there.

[snip]

Dear David,

I thought that rims were made from cut-up chunks of extruded strip and that they were reasonably
uniform in their dimensions when curled up.

How is thickness added at the joint?

Carl Fogel

RE/

Quoted message said:

I agree but there has to be enough threads let to finish trueing the wheel.

This has been sort of a "live and learn" thing.

Ordered a double-grommetted rim, Mavic had discontinued the 618...wound up with a 717
(single grommet).

Guy in the shop gave me straight-gauge spokes.

I picked up on that, at least...but he said "No, a guy your size needs straight-gauge for the
stiffness"... Well, I also bought Jobst's book while I was at it. As I read it, nobody *needs* straight-
gauge spokes.

From my reading of the book, the swaged-non-swaged tradeoffs are:

- Swaged: a more durable wheel because the spokes can give a little instead of letting the
nipples loosen

- Straight: Wheel can be built/trued faster and more easily.
--
PeteCresswell

Carl Fogel said:

I thought that rims were made from cut-up chunks of extruded strip and that they were reasonably
uniform in their dimensions when curled up.

How is thickness added at the joint?

Depends on how the joint is made. I have noticed, though, that some rims did seem to have that
phenomenon, that the two spokes closest to the joint did not come quite as far into the nipple as
the others. Maybe the rim is just stiffer there, and sometimes out of round a bit.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but _`\(,_ | what canst thou say?
-- George Fox. (_)/ (_) |

RE/

Quoted message said:

I bet the two that were the "right size" are next to the seam, opposite from the valve. The reason
they don't protrude is not because they are shorter, but because there is (often) more rim
thickness there.

Yeah, the spokes were a bit too long. Live with it. No real harm done as long as there is plenty of
distance between spoke end and tube.\

Nope....but I found out something else about that area: it's a little heavier than the rest
of the rim.

I kept spinning the thing, looking to see if I'd gotten all the hop out of it and it *looked* pretty
good....but it *felt* like there was still some irregularity.

Finally dawned on me to just stop the wheel and see if it settled anywhere. Yep... and it turns out
that putting a tube on the rim makes it balance out seemingly perfectly (the Presta valve seems to
balance the seam...)

Now, to find a 17-tooth track cog, a BMX freewheel/cog, figure out how to mount 'em on that Surly
flip-flop hub and I'm in business....
--
PeteCresswell

"(Pete Cresswell)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Nope....but I found out something else about that area: it's a little

heavier

Quoted message said:

than the rest of the rim.

I kept spinning the thing, looking to see if I'd gotten all the hop out of

it

Quoted message said:

and it *looked* pretty good....but it *felt* like there was still some irregularity.

Yes, some rims are pinned together with a sleeve in the box section. Those are quite apparent weight-
wise when you spin them without a tire or tube. Again, these require some work from time to time to
get the hop out.

Cheers,

Scott..

"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Depends on how the joint is made. I have noticed, though, that some rims did seem to have that
phenomenon, that the two spokes closest to the joint did not come quite as far into the nipple as
the others. Maybe the rim is just stiffer there, and sometimes out of round a bit.

I've never noticed their being any extra thickness there that can be noticed in the spokes myself.
But yes, most rims require a little work around the seam to make it round. Some are better than
others and the tension there can be a little erratic.

Cheers,

Scott..

(Pete Cresswell) said:

Ordered a double-grommetted rim, Mavic had discontinued the 618...wound up with a 717 (single
grommet).

Guy in the shop gave me straight-gauge spokes.

I had that happen once, too. Never understood it, except that that shop cut and rolled the threads
themselves. They had one length of raw spoke, rather than all these various lengths. Cheaper for
them, once they bought the thread rolling machine. They also had no butted spokes.

Quoted message said:

I picked up on that, at least...but he said "No, a guy your size needs straight-gauge for the
stiffness"...

Bunk

Quoted message said:

- Straight: Wheel can be built/trued faster and more easily.

Really? Anyone? The only advantage I could ever imagine is the one I mentioned above.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Let's not escape into mathematics. Let's stay with reality. -- _`\(,_ | Michael Crichton
(_)/ (_) |

David L. Johnson said:

(Pete Cresswell) said:

- Straight: Wheel can be built/trued faster and more easily.

Really? Anyone? The only advantage I could ever imagine is the one I mentioned above.

There's less of a problem with windup with straight gauge, so the wheel can be built more quickly.

JT
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Visit jt10000.comjt10000.comOpen ↗
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"David L. Johnson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel said:

I thought that rims were made from cut-up chunks of extruded strip and that they were reasonably
uniform in their dimensions when curled up.

How is thickness added at the joint?

Depends on how the joint is made. I have noticed, though, that some rims did seem to have that
phenomenon, that the two spokes closest to the joint did not come quite as far into the nipple as
the others. Maybe the rim is just stiffer there, and sometimes out of round a bit.

Dear David,

While I remain dubious (ignorance makes skepticism so much easier), it occurred to me that perhaps
the insert method of joining the ends of a rim could account for subtle oddities at the joint.

That is, if a straight, hard insert is jammed into the softer, rounding metal ends of the rim, it
might distort, bulge, or stiffen that very small section of the rim.

Of course, I know nothing about the shape, hardness, or size of rim inserts, beyond the common
comment that they're roughly as heavy as the valve stem on the far side of the wheel.

Jobst Brandt mentioned them in "The Bicycle Wheel" in the rim section and argued that they were just
as good and less expensive than welding, but I don't remember any warnings about the rim-joint being
peculiar in wheel-building.

Carl Fogel

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

- Straight: Wheel can be built/trued faster and more easily.

Really? Anyone? The only advantage I could ever imagine is the one I mentioned above.

There's less of a problem with windup with straight gauge, so the wheel can be built more quickly.

You're right if the straight spokes are 2.0 mm. Being a tightwad, I usually save a little money and
just get the 1.8 mm straight spokes and pretend that they're butted. These skinnier straight spokes
are just as likely to wind up as the 1.8/2.0 mm butted spokes.

Dave "frugal, but probably not quite as good as Jon Isaacs" dvt at psu dot edu

<Snip>
Jobst Brandt mentioned them in "The Bicycle Wheel" in the rim section and argued that they were just
as good and less expensive than welding,

but I don't remember any warnings about the rim-joint being
peculiar in wheel-building.

Carl Fogel [/B][/QUOTE]

Jobst book says:
"In both welded and spliced rims spoke tension may not be uniform near the joint. Hoever, completely correcting this error may be impossible. Stratightening the rim by the methods described under soft failures can acheive better balance of spoke tension."

I found that working the joint with the "soft failure" methods is quite helpful. Joints are always a probblem, to some degree.
You want even tensioning.

Spoke threads should not protrude very far from the end of the nipple. You want full thread engagement. If you want to see what is the end of acceptability; thread a nipple as far as you can onto a spoke by finger pressure. If you go beyond that point you are stripping and overstressing the nipple. You will find no more than 3 turns past the nipple end. Most quality builders have spokes ends within the top-to-bottom of the slot range at wheel completion. Most spokes stretch around 1 mm from their untensioned length when properly tensioned.

daveornee <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<Snip> Jobst Brandt mentioned them in "The Bicycle Wheel" in the rim section and argued that they
were just as good and less expensive than welding,

but I don't remember any warnings about the rim-joint being peculiar in wheel-building.

Carl Fogel

Jobst book says: "In both welded and spliced rims spoke tension may not be uniform near the joint.
Hoever, completely correcting this error may be impossible. Stratightening the rim by the methods
described under soft failures can acheive better balance of spoke tension."

I found that working the joint with the "soft failure" methods is quite helpful. Joints are always
a probblem, to some degree. You want even tensioning.

Spoke threads should not protrude very far from the end of the nipple. You want full thread
engagement. If you want to see what is the end of acceptability; thread a nipple as far as you can
onto a spoke by finger pressure. If you go beyond that point you are stripping and overstressing
the nipple. You will find no more than 3 turns past the nipple end. Most quality builders have
spokes ends within the top-to- bottom of the slot range at wheel completion. Most spokes stretch
around 1 mm from their untensioned length when properly tensioned.

--

Dear Dave,

Thanks for pointing out the relevant passage, which I missed. I was looking in "Rims" and found "Rim
Joint" on page 57 of my edition, but you sensibly looked in "Truing the Wheel" and found "Rim Joint"
on page 111. Here's the whole section, as penance:

"Most rims are made from straight material that is formed into a hoop and joined by welding or
splicing. The joint often causes irregular alignment that is difficult to correct. For spliced rims,
the extent of the error may not appear until after the spokes are tensioned. In both welded and
spliced rims spoke tension may not be uniform near the joint. However, completely correcting this
error may be impossible. Straightening the rim by the methods described under soft failures can
achieve a better balance of spoke tension."

So Jobst did warn, as you point out, about the rim joint being peculiar and also suffered the usual
fate of any authority who falls into my ignornant clutches.

Thanks again,

Carl Fogel