Spoke tension Question

Jas51 said:

Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
proper technique?

Dear Jas,

Bringing spokes up to tension on a bare rim is the sensible approach.

Think about what happens when you get a flat tire.

If you follow Jobst's procedure, you raise spoke tension on a bare rim
until the rim goes out of true when you squeeze spoke pairs. Then you
back off half a turn on all the spoke nipples. You have a margin of
safety.

When you inflate the tire, it constricts around the rim, lowers the
spoke tension even more, and gives you an even bigger margin of
safety.

A flat tire on this wheel just lets the spoke tension rise back up to
half a turn below where the rim might go out of true.

In contrast, bad things could happen if you followed Jobst's procedure
with an inflated tire on the rim that you're bringing up to tension.

You'd still bring the spoke tension up to the same level, squeeze a
spoke pair, watch the rim go out of true, and back off half a turn on
all the spoke nipples.

So the spoke tension would be the same--but only as long as the tire
was inflated.

When you get a flat tire, the tire relaxes its grip on the rim, so the
spoke tension would rise. You had only a half-turn margin of safety
when the tire was inflated, so the spoke tension might rise past that.

Your weight raises the spoke tension slightly on the spokes that
aren't under the axle. You also probably put some side loads into the
wheel as you ride. And you're bumping along the road, slowing down
with a flat tire.

Your over-tensioned wheel can be forgiven if it thinks someone is
squeezing its spoke pairs and decides to go out of true.

Now you have a flat to fix, plus a rim to re-true by the side of the
road. It's probably cold or raining.

Jobst's bare-rim tensioning procedure avoids this potential problem.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Jas51 said:

Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
proper technique?

It's a 9.995 on the RBT Troll-o-Meter!

Jas51 said:

Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
proper technique?

Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.

"landotter" wrote: (clip) it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!" when
plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I have tinnitis, which makes it hard for me to distinguish between "twing"
and "twooong." Are there spokes made that resonate at a lower pitch?

landotter said:

Jas51 said:

Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
proper technique?

Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.

Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim. Rinse and
repeat. ;-)

Ozark Bicycle said:

landotter said:

Jas51 said:

Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
proper technique?

Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.

Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim. Rinse and
repeat. ;-)

All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't distinguish
between specific brands of rims, some which can take more tension--but
the wheels stay true, and that's all that matters in the end. ;-) I've
only had one rim ever go bad on me, and that was a cracked MA3 a
couple years ago--which I doubt had to do with spoke tension. As long
as the tension is good enough, the spokes seated in the flanges, and
the overall tension even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned
junk.

The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.

landotter said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

landotter said:

Jas51 wrote:
> Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
> mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
> with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
> proper technique?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.

Quoted message said:

Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim. Rinse and
repeat. ;-)

All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't distinguish
between specific brands of rims, some which can take more tension--but
the wheels stay true, and that's all that matters in the end. ;-) I've
only had one rim ever go bad on me, and that was a cracked MA3 a
couple years ago--which I doubt had to do with spoke tension. As long
as the tension is good enough, the spokes seated in the flanges, and
the overall tension even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned
junk.

The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.

"The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to modern
rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box shape
rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.

"If you follow Jobst's procedure, you raise spoke tension on a bare
rim
until the rim goes out of true when you squeeze spoke pairs. Then you
back off half a turn on all the spoke nipples. You have a margin of
safety. "

I agree with Ozark! but Ima Group 2 wheelflogger not an expert Group
1.
Why why why spend the time building a wheel then screw it up with
overtension?
Divinity deleted.
Why the taco method could maybe possibly produce an eternal Group 1
wheel.
Then again it might not and then you good buddy just blew all that
time and energy coming up to JB's Group 1 acceptance thrashold.
I share your pain.
DO NOT DEFORM THE RIM BEFORE HITTING A POTHOLE
(this does not state JB is wrong-it sez I am not going to redo)
so? well, if you knew what then reretrueing would be no problem
in Group 1.
clean ears with H2O2/Qtip so yawl will hear the the boat trailer towed
by drunks piloting a Surburban.
clean when no roaring goes on.

Ozark Bicycle said:

landotter said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Oct 30, 8:17 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Jas51 wrote:
> > Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
> > mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
> > with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
> > proper technique?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
> in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
> your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
> when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim. Rinse and
repeat. ;-)

Quoted message said:

All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't distinguish
between specific brands of rims, some which can take more tension--but
the wheels stay true, and that's all that matters in the end. ;-) I've
only had one rim ever go bad on me, and that was a cracked MA3 a
couple years ago--which I doubt had to do with spoke tension. As long
as the tension is good enough, the spokes seated in the flanges, and
the overall tension even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned
junk.

Quoted message said:

The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.

"The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to modern
rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box shape
rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.- Hide quoted text -

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='2539-00' I
think $54 is a reasonable investment -- less than a Open Pro rim full
price. -- Jay Beattie

OK JAY a bargain
and from Oak Park!
but what good is it? relative to the trueing process?

datakoll said:

OK JAY a bargain
and from Oak Park!
but what good is it? relative to the trueing process?

I know! There's a chip in the tension-o-meter. When spoke tension
records as unevenly nearing the universal taco level, a signal goes
forth and this guy shows up on your lawn.

http://www.synergise.com/travel/Homepage/ecards/switzerland_horn.jpg

Jay Beattie said:

On Oct 30, 11:29 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Oct 30, 10:49 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> On Oct 30, 8:17 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > Jas51 wrote:
> > > Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
> > > mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
> > > with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
> > > proper technique?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
> > in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
> > your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
> > when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim. Rinse and
> repeat. ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't distinguish
between specific brands of rims, some which can take more tension--but
the wheels stay true, and that's all that matters in the end. ;-) I've
only had one rim ever go bad on me, and that was a cracked MA3 a
couple years ago--which I doubt had to do with spoke tension. As long
as the tension is good enough, the spokes seated in the flanges, and
the overall tension even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned
junk.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.

Quoted message said:

"The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to modern
rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box shape
rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.- Hide quoted text -

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='2539-00' I
think $54 is a reasonable investment -- less than a Open Pro rim full
price. -- Jay Beattie

Considering the investment in a pair of hubs, pair of rims, 60+
spokes, etc., it seems foolish to "cheap out" and not buy a Park
Tensiometer.

- buy quoted text -

I agree but if we can't fijnd an expert to step forward then explain
what the tension-o-meter is used for
, why not go hole hawg with: http://www.dtswiss.com/Products/Proline/DT-tensio-digital.aspx

Ozark Bicycle said:

Jay Beattie said:

On Oct 30, 11:29 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Oct 30, 10:49 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> On Oct 30, 8:17 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> Jas51 wrote:
>>>> Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
>>>> mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
>>>> with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
>>>> proper technique?
>>> Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
>>> in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
>>> your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
>>> when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.
>> Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim. Rinse and
>> repeat. ;-)
> All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
> dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't distinguish
> between specific brands of rims, some which can take more tension--but
> the wheels stay true, and that's all that matters in the end. ;-) I've
> only had one rim ever go bad on me, and that was a cracked MA3 a
> couple years ago--which I doubt had to do with spoke tension. As long
> as the tension is good enough, the spokes seated in the flanges, and
> the overall tension even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned
> junk.
> The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
> rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
> which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
> compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.
"The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to modern
rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box shape
rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.- Hide quoted text -

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='2539-00' I
think $54 is a reasonable investment -- less than a Open Pro rim full
price. -- Jay Beattie

Considering the investment in a pair of hubs, pair of rims, 60+
spokes, etc., it seems foolish to "cheap out" and not buy a Park
Tensiometer.

yeahbut some individuals think their psychic powers make them exempt
from the physics of earthly matter. they "don't need no steenkin'
tensiometer", remember?

In article
<[email hidden]>,

landotter said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

landotter said:

Jas51 wrote:
> Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
> mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
> with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
> proper technique?

Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.

Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim. Rinse and
repeat. ;-)

All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't distinguish
between specific brands of rims, some which can take more tension--but
the wheels stay true, and that's all that matters in the end. ;-) I've
only had one rim ever go bad on me, and that was a cracked MA3 a
couple years ago--which I doubt had to do with spoke tension. As long
as the tension is good enough, the spokes seated in the flanges, and
the overall tension even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned
junk.

The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.

I did it once, and will not have to do it again.
I now know what a fully tensioned wheel is like.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>,
Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Jay Beattie said:

On Oct 30, 11:29 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

On Oct 30, 10:49 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
> > On Oct 30, 8:17 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
> > > Jas51 wrote:
> > > > Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
> > > > mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
> > > > with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
> > > > proper technique?

Quoted message said:

> > > Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
> > > in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
> > > your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
> > > when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.

Quoted message said:

> > Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim. Rinse and
> > repeat. ;-)

Quoted message said:

> All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
> dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't distinguish
> between specific brands of rims, some which can take more tension--but
> the wheels stay true, and that's all that matters in the end. ;-) I've
> only had one rim ever go bad on me, and that was a cracked MA3 a
> couple years ago--which I doubt had to do with spoke tension. As long
> as the tension is good enough, the spokes seated in the flanges, and
> the overall tension even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned
> junk.

Quoted message said:

> The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
> rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
> which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
> compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.

Quoted message said:

"The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to modern
rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box shape
rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.- Hide quoted text -

http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='2539-00' I
think $54 is a reasonable investment -- less than a Open Pro rim full
price. -- Jay Beattie

Considering the investment in a pair of hubs, pair of rims, 60+
spokes, etc., it seems foolish to "cheap out" and not buy a Park
Tensiometer.

If I were to buy a tensiometer I would be foolish to cheap out on
the Park tensiometer rather than the DT Swiss Tensio Spoke Tensiometer

<http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/TL1925>

--
Michael Press

jim beam said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

Jay Beattie said:

On Oct 30, 11:29 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 10:49 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>> On Oct 30, 8:17 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>> Jas51 wrote:
>>>>> Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
>>>>> mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
>>>>> with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
>>>>> proper technique?
>>>> Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
>>>> in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
>>>> your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
>>>> when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.
>>> Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim. Rinse and
>>> repeat. ;-)
>> All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
>> dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't distinguish
>> between specific brands of rims, some which can take more tension--but
>> the wheels stay true, and that's all that matters in the end. ;-) I've
>> only had one rim ever go bad on me, and that was a cracked MA3 a
>> couple years ago--which I doubt had to do with spoke tension. As long
>> as the tension is good enough, the spokes seated in the flanges, and
>> the overall tension even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned
>> junk.
>> The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
>> rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
>> which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
>> compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.
> "The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to modern
> rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box shape
> rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.- Hide quoted text -
http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='2539-00' I
think $54 is a reasonable investment -- less than a Open Pro rim full
price. -- Jay Beattie

Quoted message said:

Considering the investment in a pair of hubs, pair of rims, 60+
spokes, etc., it seems foolish to "cheap out" and not buy a Park
Tensiometer.

yeahbut some individuals think their psychic powers make them exempt
from the physics of earthly matter. they "don't need no steenkin'
tensiometer", remember?- Hide quoted text -

I think the Book has to abandon the MA2/6 speed paradigm. It is no
longer the real world. -- Jay Beattie

geee, all I asked was HOW Jay Beattie used his tension-o-meter
or HOW the meter use avoids tacoing
or WHEN the meter is used.
to evaluate using the meter.

Jay Beattie said:

jim beam said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

On Oct 30, 5:49 pm, Jay Beattie <[email hidden]> wrote:
> On Oct 30, 11:29 am, Ozark Bicycle

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> On Oct 30, 10:49 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>>>> On Oct 30, 8:17 am, landotter <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>>>> Jas51 wrote:
>>>>>> Using the rim taco-method of setting spoke tension, should a tire be
>>>>>> mounted and inflated beforehand? Ive always brung the spokes up to tension
>>>>>> with no tire mounted, but the 160 psi thread got me wondering. What's the
>>>>>> proper technique?
>>>>> Bare rim. Using a really [censored] spoke wrench you got carded at a Kmart
>>>>> in 1988, as you can't find your Park model, tension each spoke till
>>>>> your index finger hurts and it goes "twinnng!" instead of "twooong!"
>>>>> when plucked. Make sure to have your ears calibrated beforehand.
>>>> Next step: Use Google to find the best price on a new rim. Rinse and
>>>> repeat. ;-)
>>> All kidding aside, I do have a general pitch which I true around,
>>> dished wheels getting an average of that tone. It doesn't distinguish
>>> between specific brands of rims, some which can take more tension--but
>>> the wheels stay true, and that's all that matters in the end. ;-) I've
>>> only had one rim ever go bad on me, and that was a cracked MA3 a
>>> couple years ago--which I doubt had to do with spoke tension. As long
>>> as the tension is good enough, the spokes seated in the flanges, and
>>> the overall tension even--you're still miles ahead of factory tuned
>>> junk.
>>> The Jobst taco method strikes me as a bit more dangerous than my
>>> rather plebian ways, seeing as he's a proponent of socketed rims,
>>> which I assume are going to be a bit more resistant to cracking
>>> compared to eyeletted or plain hole stoff.
>> "The Jobst taco method" is way outta date and not applicable to modern
>> rims (which are more resistant to 'doing the taco' than are box shape
>> rims) and modern, more highly dished 130mm 8-10sp rear wheels.- Hide quoted text -
>http://www.lickbike.com/productpage.aspx?PART_NUM_SUB='2539-00' I
> think $54 is a reasonable investment -- less than a Open Pro rim full
> price. -- Jay Beattie

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Considering the investment in a pair of hubs, pair of rims, 60+
spokes, etc., it seems foolish to "cheap out" and not buy a Park
Tensiometer.

Quoted message said:

yeahbut some individuals think their psychic powers make them exempt
from the physics of earthly matter. they "don't need no steenkin'
tensiometer", remember?- Hide quoted text -

I think the Book has to abandon the MA2/6 speed paradigm. It is no
longer the real world. -- Jay Beattie

BINGO!!!