Spoke tension meter

"App" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<snip> various questions/comments about the usefulness of spoke
tensiometers <snip>

I have the Park tool and the most useful thing it told me was

that the

Quoted message said:

process defined in Jobst's book works. I took the tool to a

set of

Quoted message said:

wheels I built with "the book" and check the tension - all

spokes were

Quoted message said:

within +/- 10% (Park recommends +/- 20%).

Wheels I have built with the tensiometer are +/- 5%.

The least expensive meter is one you borrow or your ear (search

this NG

Quoted message said:

for "spoke tension note tone"😉.

I think Sheldon says proper tone is A flat or some such.

The Park tool told me that I was building rear wheels at about
20% over recommended tension -- which I needed on standard rims
to keep them true at my weight. That is why I switched to OC
rims. The Park tool is so cheap, that even if it is not
absolutely necessary, it is a worthwhile novelty. Now, the chain
checker is a little spendy for my tastes -- and it always gives
me bad news. -- Jay Beattie.

P.S. Tone depends on spoke length and thickness, so there is no
single optimal tone.

Quoted message said:

....That is why I switched to OC rims.....

What are OC rims?

nc

Wasatch5k said:

Quoted message said:

....That is why I switched to OC rims.....

What are OC rims?

nc

Dear NC,

See "off center rims" threads in the archives.

Carl Fogel

Ken said:

I was curious about these things, I know that spoke tension is important to
keep your wheels true under normal riding condtions. I have seen the Park
tm-1 I think is the model number and this seems like it is the most
economical one on the market. Is this something that the home diy'er should
have in his garage?

Especially for a beginner it can be difficult to tell when the spokes
are at proper tension, so IMHO, it's a very handy tool for anybody who
builds wheels.

I have the Park TM-1 and it's reasonably good. It doesn't give very
consistent readings, though, probably because there's some friction
between the handle and the body and the spring isn't all that stiff.
I think it's still good enough, because it doesn't really matter all
that much if the tensionmeter gives a reading of 95 or 105 kg for a
spoke that is actually at 100 kg.

I usually take a reading from a few spokes to tell when I've reached a
good overall level of tension. For individual spokes I equalise their
tension by tone.

Quoted message said:

And are there any less expensive meters on the market?

I think the Park TM-1 is a fine investment at $50. I don't think there
are any cheaper alternatives, and better ones cost a LOT more.

-as

Quoting Ken <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

I was curious about these things, I know that spoke tension is important to
keep your wheels true under normal riding condtions. I have seen the Park
tm-1 I think is the model number and this seems like it is the most
economical one on the market.

It's also not desperately accurate; but if you're not in the sort of
situation where you're trying to build a heavily dished wheel on a weak
rim to carry heavy loads - caught between too high a tension on one side
and too low on another - it's good enough.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is First Chedday, June - a public holiday.

Ken said:

I was curious about these things, I know that spoke tension is important to
keep your wheels true under normal riding condtions. I have seen the Park
tm-1 I think is the model number and this seems like it is the most
economical one on the market. Is this something that the home diy'er should
have in his garage? I have a brand new wheel on the back (actually has about
200 miles on it) and that the spoke tension should be checked after a
certain number of break in miles ( I have read 100 miles is the number)

A tensionometer is a good idea and the Park tool is the least expensive
one. Tone and such 'may' work for even tension checking but for
absolute checking a meter is essential.

BUT, wheels don't 'break in'. The tension when built, if done
correxctly and stress relieved and all the wind up out of the spokes,
do NOT change when riding. Nothing streetches, nothing breaksin. If a
new wheel makes all sorts of noise when new, or the tension changes, it
was poorly built.

But

Quoted message said:

to shell out a minimum of $50 for a tool that may or may not be used much is
a bit of a waste. Should spoke tension be checked with a meter on a regular
basis?

Ken

And are there any less expensive meters on the market?

--
For my real email address just remove "-dispose-trash"
More of my mind dribbles at my blog: http://mind-dribble.blogspot.com/
My personal website: http://kcm-home.tripod.com/

App said:

<snip> various questions/comments about the usefulness of spoke
tensiometers <snip>

I have the Park tool and the most useful thing it told me was that the
process defined in Jobst's book works. I took the tool to a set of
wheels I built with "the book" and check the tension - all spokes were
within +/- 10% (Park recommends +/- 20%).

Wheels I have built with the tensiometer are +/- 5%.

The least expensive meter is one you borrow or your ear (search this NG
for "spoke tension note tone"😉.

I think Sheldon says proper tone is A flat or some such.

A flat for what spoke gauge?...Spoke gauge makes the pitch different.
Unless you can play the piano or some crappola, tone for tension
doesn't work.

Quoted message said:

App

App said:

Quoted message said:

Wheels I have built with the tensiometer are +/- 5%.

The least expensive meter is one you borrow or your ear (search this NG
for "spoke tension note tone"😉.

I think Sheldon says proper tone is A flat or some such.

Actually, I defer to my friend John Allen on this.

See: http://www.bikexprt.com/bicycle/tension.htm

Peter Chisholm asked:

Quoted message said:

A flat for what spoke gauge?...Spoke gauge makes the pitch different.

It does for equal absolute tension. John's article is based on
tension/cross sectional area, and aims for a tension of about 1/3 the
yield stress of typical stainless spokes. For this the pitch is the
same, because the inertia of the mass of the spoke cancels out the
difference in absolute tension.

When he wrote that article, back in 1987, spoke failure was commonly the
limiting factor in how tight the spokes could be. Since then, rims have
been made lighter and weaker, so that now days the rim is often the weak
link, and lower spoke tensions are sometimes needed to avoid rim failure.

Quoted message said:

Unless you can play the piano or some crappola, tone for tension
doesn't work.

I don't play the piano or even the crappola, just takes normal hearing.

I've found it to work pretty well as a way to compare one spoke or one
wheel with another.

I own a couple of tensiometers, but I still plink the spokes to check
for evenness of tension. I do tend to use the tensiometer to judge when
the wheel is up to tension, but if I didn't have a tensiometer, I don't
believe I would miss it all that much. I was building wheels
successfully for decades before tensiometers became available.

Sheldon "A Poor Workman Blames His Tools" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------+
| For every complex problem, there is a solution |
| that is simple, neat, and wrong. |
| --H. L. Mencken |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 11:31:55 -0400, Sheldon Brown
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[sni--]

[Drat this dull key that won't cut text!]

[sni--]

[Press harder!]

[sni--]

[Oops--that's the Insert key, not the Del key . . .]

[SNIP!]

Quoted message said:

Sheldon "A Poor Workman Blames His Tools" Brown

Dear Sheldon,

Well . . .

Carl "A Workman Is Only As Good As His Tools" Fogel

Ken said:

I was curious about these things, I know that spoke tension is important to
keep your wheels true under normal riding condtions. I have seen the Park
tm-1 I think is the model number and this seems like it is the most
economical one on the market. Is this something that the home diy'er should
have in his garage? I have a brand new wheel on the back (actually has about
200 miles on it) and that the spoke tension should be checked after a
certain number of break in miles ( I have read 100 miles is the number) But
to shell out a minimum of $50 for a tool that may or may not be used much is
a bit of a waste. Should spoke tension be checked with a meter on a regular
basis?

It *is* a good idea to use one when building a wheel, but for the small
number of wheels built by most amateurs it's a difficult expense to justify.

Wheels are surprisingly tolerant to a poor build, or you'd see a lot
more collapsed ones out on the road (I've never seen a total wheel
failure, and only one broken spoke - on a machine built wheel).

Assuming the nipples were well-lubricated before building, when you find
the spokes are beginning to wind-up significantly, creaking and
"snapping" back into position, the wheel is probably tight enough. Do
Jobst's stress relieving thing with all your might, and if it stays true
you'll know you haven't overtensioned it either.

All your wheels will end up at a slightly different tension, but there's
a pretty big window of acceptability there. They'll probably still be
10 times as good as the ones my LBS does ;-)

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:03:10 +0100, Zog The Undeniable
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Wheels are surprisingly tolerant to a poor build, or you'd see a lot
more collapsed ones out on the road (I've never seen a total wheel
failure, and only one broken spoke - on a machine built wheel).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[snip]

Dear Zog,

Interesting observation--not at all what the casual reader
of this newsgroup would expect.

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

App said:

The least expensive meter is one you borrow or your ear (search this NG
for "spoke tension note tone"😉.

I think Sheldon says proper tone is A flat or some such.

Which A flat?

--Blair
"Plink plink plink..."

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

A flat for what spoke gauge?...Spoke gauge makes the pitch different.
Unless you can play the piano or some crappola, tone for tension
doesn't work.

Gauge, material density, shape, length, all perturb the tone
for the same tension.

If Sheldon said that, he's high, having us on, or talking about
the wheels on his favorite tourer.

--Blair
"Ha ha funny."

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 19:03:10 +0100, Zog The Undeniable
<[email hidden]> wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Wheels are surprisingly tolerant to a poor build, or you'd see a lot
more collapsed ones out on the road (I've never seen a total wheel
failure, and only one broken spoke - on a machine built wheel).

Quoted message said:

Interesting observation--not at all what the casual reader
of this newsgroup would expect.

Load on the wheels matters a lot. I weigh close to two regular riders, and
I break spokes on my (machine-built, three-speed hub, steel rim) wheels on
my commuter iron steed (which also has to hop the occasional low curb, of
course) on a regular basis. The very first wheel I ever built, for my
father who's not that heavy by a long stretch, broke spokes extremely
often due to overtension.

Jasper

Sheldon Brown said:

I don't play the piano or even the crappola, just takes normal hearing.

I've found it to work pretty well as a way to compare one spoke or one
wheel with another.

I own a couple of tensiometers, but I still plink the spokes to check
for evenness of tension. I do tend to use the tensiometer to judge when
the wheel is up to tension, but if I didn't have a tensiometer, I don't
believe I would miss it all that much. I was building wheels
successfully for decades before tensiometers became available.

Sheldon "A Poor Workman Blames His Tools" Brown

Gee, so do I. Tone to compare tension is something all of us old fart
wheelbuilders use. But I also use a DT dial tensionometer to check
actual tension to see if I am where I want to be. I think I could
probably tell also but when building 5-6 wheels in one day, hands
getting tired, different rims, the tensionometer is a good thing.

But the concept of plucking a spoke and then truing a wheel cuz it's a
few notes too low, that just makes me giggle, but I don't play anything
but the truing stand.

Can't we just use the term: "Tensiometer"?
It sounds so hokey with all these pseudonyms.

[email hidden]

[email hidden] wrote:

I said:

Quoted message said:

Wheels are surprisingly tolerant to a poor build, or you'd see a lot
more collapsed ones out on the road (I've never seen a total wheel
failure, and only one broken spoke - on a machine built wheel).

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Interesting observation--not at all what the casual reader
of this newsgroup would expect.

If you look at some of the horrible wheels out there, yes it is
surprising. I think one helpful factor is that the cheapest wheels on
the $100 bikes usually have 36 spokes, and that's a structure that can
take a lot of abuse both in terms of a poor build, hard riding and lack
of maintenance [1].

To balance things up, I've seen a broken crank, a broken frame and
pretty much anything that can happen to a tyre (puncture, blow-off,
skidding right through the casing in one stop, slashed sidewalls,
leaving black trails on hot roads...)

[1] although a wheel with a good build needs no maintenance, unless the
rim wears through or you twist it in a storm drain :-(

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can't we just use the term: "Tensiometer"?
It sounds so hokey with all these pseudonyms.

[email hidden]

Well I would have used this term, but i was not sure it was a the right
term, or something someone had made up.

Ken

Ken said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Can't we just use the term: "Tensiometer"?
It sounds so hokey with all these pseudonyms.

[email hidden]

Well I would have used this term, but i was not sure it was a the right
term, or something someone had made up.

Ken

Dear Ken,

Don't worry too much about it.

The level of fuss about "tensio(n)meter" serves as an
attentio(n)meter that measures how much attention is being
paid to what matters.

The more ill-natured fuss about it, the less attentio(n) is
being paid to the good-natured original questions and
replies.

A cheerful alternative is to add a space instead of removing
the "n"--google for "tension meter" and you'll find a
respectable number of manufacturers.

Or you can use other happy phrases, such as "tension gauge"
or "tension tester"--they work quite nicely.

Interestingly, the tension level in a thread tends to rise
in direct proportion to the number of snide comments. Oddly,
we are all too often astonished that sarcasm and insults
fail to win friends or influence people.

Carl Fogel