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Spoke tension deflection test

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Cycling Equipment
Published
31 December 2006
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5 January 2007
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  1. In theory, we can measure spoke tension if we know how long the spoke
    is, hang a known weight from its midspan, and measure the spoke's
    downward deflection:

    tension = (length x force) / (4 x deflection)

    But this measurement can be tricky to perform on a real wheel.

    So I put a spoke in a vise-rig and hung two weights from its midspan
    by thin wires. I also laid a thin ruler flat across the vise jaws to
    serve as a reference plane when I measured the small deflection.

    I used Post Office electronic weight scales and dial calipers.

    Here's a view of the setup:

    http://i17.tinypic.com/4bf8whi.jpg

    Click on the lower right in Explorer for the full-size image.

    The camera angle isn't dead level with the thin metal ruler laid a
    across the jaws, but it's good enough to show the 19 lbs of weight
    pulling the spoke down.

    The length of the span between the vise jaws was 4.545", the two
    weights together weighed 19 lbs 2.5 ounces (19.15625 lbs), and the
    downward deflection was a suspiciously round 0.120", so I've
    calculated the tension for 0.110, 0.120, and 0.130 inches.

    (4.545 x 19.15625) / (4 x 0.110) = 212 lbs tension
    (4.545 x 19.15625) / (4 x 0.120) = 195 lbs tension
    (4.545 x 19.15625) / (4 x 0.130) = 180 lbs tension

    Whatever the spoke's original tension was, it certainly looks as if it
    must have risen to around 195 lbs.

    But despite my faultless theory and careful measurements, a small
    correction seems to be needed to get the correct spoke tension:

    http://i18.tinypic.com/30c6a3c.jpg

    🙂

    A real wheel may have a few smaller confounding factors hidden in it
    that aren't as easily revealed.

    ***

    So much for deceiving trusting readers as an object lesson. There are
    no hidden flaws in what follows--at least no _deliberately_ hidden
    flaws. Like anyone else, I may be blind to what's wrong with my
    explanations.

    Let's consider the relative accuracy of measuring deflections in real
    wheels versus a Park gauge.

    We measure a spoke in a real wheel as 280 mm from hub to rim.

    (Let's use a radial wheel, so that we don't have to wonder about that
    pesky bend at the spoke crossing.)

    We hang a 23-pound weight from our 280 mm spoke's midspan and measure
    the downward deflection as 7 mm.

    Then we add a 26-pound weight and measure the deflection again, this
    time as 12 mm.

    We apply our spoke tension equation again:

    tension = (force x length) / (4 x deflection)

    (23 x 280) / (4 x 7) = 230 pounds of tension
    (49 x 280) / (4 x 12) = 286 pounds of tension

    There's no deflection with 0 pounds of weights, we can't tell what the
    original tension was.

    But it looks like a 56-lb tension increase when we add 26 lbs of
    weight, so we seem to be getting two pounds of tension increase for
    each pound of side force.

    But this is considerably more than anyone has yet reported measuring
    with a tension gauge on a real wheel.

    So we simply dismiss the Park gauge as inaccurate.

    But what's the margin of error in our measurements versus the Park
    tool?

    Again, let's ignore the length. It's 280 mm. And let's assume that our
    23 and 26 pound weights total exactly 49 pounds.

    But it can be tricky to measure the deflection of a spoke with a rope
    or wire wrapped around its midspan in a real wheel.

    Maybe the deflections really are 7.0 mm and 12.0 mm on the nose, but
    what if those were a little off, say plus or minus half a millimeter?

    280 mm, 23 lbs
    deflection tension change
    6.5 mm 248 lbs +18 (280 x 23 ) / (4 x 6.5)
    7.0 mm 230 lbs 0 (280 x 23 ) / (4 x 7.0)
    7.5 mm 215 lbs -15 (280 x 23 ) / (4 x 7.5)

    280 mm, 49 lbs
    deflection tension change
    11.5 mm 298 lbs +12 (280 x 49) / (4 x 11.5)
    12.0 mm 286 lbs 0 (280 x 49) / (4 x 12.0)
    12.5 mm 274 lbs -12 (280 x 49) / (4 x 12.5)

    Hmmm . . .

    If the margin of error is +/- 0.5 mm, then our first tension is really
    215~248 pounds, while our second tension is 274~298 pounds.

    That would mean that the tension rise for adding the second 26-pound
    weight is between 26 pounds (274-248) and 83 pounds (298-215), or
    anywhere from 1-to-1 to 1-to-3.

    After measuring our single spoke, we declare that the test gives us
    what we wanted, that it proves that literally hundreds of spoke tests
    on other wheels with a Park gauge that showed nothing better than
    1-to-1 ratios must be wrong, and that our wheel must be much stiffer
    than all those other wheels.

    Stiffer, in fact, than a massively braced pipe-clamp rig with no spoke
    crossing that achieved only a 1.5-to-1 ratio when measured with a Park
    tension gauge.

    Hmmm . . . let's take a look at that inaccurate Park tension gauge.

    The marks on a Park tension gauge are spaced at 0.075 inches, or 1.905
    mm. When applied, the Park gauge hangs as motionless as the spoke and
    is fairly easy to read at a glance.

    So a quarter mark on the Park tool is about 0.5 mm.

    Repeated applications of the Park gauge will produce readings
    consistent to within a quarter-mark or better, so a margin of error of
    a quarter-mark either way seems reasonable. (More expensive tension
    gauges may do even better.)

    For a 2 mm round steel spoke in the 200-300 pound range (91 to 136
    kgf), the Park gauge table reads like this:

    Park Park extrapolated
    mark kgf lbs
    22.00 85 187
    22.25 193
    22.50 198
    22.75 203
    23.00 95 209
    23.25 215
    23.50 222 [censored]
    23.75 228 +/- ~7 lbs @ ~230 lbs
    24.00 107 235 [censored]
    24.25 243
    24.50 251
    24.75 259
    25.00 121 266
    25.25 275 [censored]
    25.50 284 +/- ~9 lbs @ ~280 lbs
    25.75 293 [censored]
    26.00 137 301

    So the Park gauge looks accurate to +/- 7~9 lbs at the expected
    tensions if read to within a quarter mark, about 0.5 mm on the scale.

    But an error of the same +/- 0.5 mm on our single deflection test,
    which was much harder to measure, meant an accuracy of +/- 12~18
    pounds--about twice as large a margin of error.

    Yet the argument is that the Park tool must be less accurate . . .

    Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a spoke
    and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a handwritten date
    and the inspector's initials:

    http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  2. Quoted message said:

    If the margin of error is +/- 0.5 mm, then our first tension is really
    215~248 pounds, while our second tension is 274~298 pounds.

    That would mean that the tension rise for adding the second 26-pound
    weight is between 26 pounds (274-248) and 83 pounds (298-215), or
    anywhere from 1-to-1 to 1-to-3.

    Good point Carl! I wonder if you might be interested in repeating a few
    of your "side load on the spoke" tests using the pipe clamp, and also a
    wheel with radial spokes (if you have one), and this time take precise
    deflection measurements as well as Park gauge readings, to see if they
    match... within the margin of error at least.

    Quoted message said:

    Yet the argument is that the Park tool must be less accurate . . .

    Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a spoke
    and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a handwritten date
    and the inspector's initials:

    http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg

    Hey! There is no note on mine! I suspect they are skipping the
    calibration step these days...

  3. On 31 Dec 2006 14:51:32 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    If the margin of error is +/- 0.5 mm, then our first tension is really
    215~248 pounds, while our second tension is 274~298 pounds.

    That would mean that the tension rise for adding the second 26-pound
    weight is between 26 pounds (274-248) and 83 pounds (298-215), or
    anywhere from 1-to-1 to 1-to-3.

    Good point Carl! I wonder if you might be interested in repeating a few
    of your "side load on the spoke" tests using the pipe clamp, and also a
    wheel with radial spokes (if you have one), and this time take precise
    deflection measurements as well as Park gauge readings, to see if they
    match... within the margin of error at least.

    Quoted message said:

    Yet the argument is that the Park tool must be less accurate . . .

    Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a spoke
    and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a handwritten date
    and the inspector's initials:

    http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg

    Hey! There is no note on mine! I suspect they are skipping the
    calibration step these days...

    Dear Ron,

    Given that the Park tension gauge shows the archery-style drop or no
    rise in tension for about the first twenty pounds of squeeze force, I
    doubt that anything will be shown except that the fixed-point tension
    equation is going to exaggerate spoke tension increases.

    I can't see any good way to measure the deflection on a typical
    cross-3 wheel.

    The spoke starts with the ~ 4 degree crossing bend trying to
    straighten out, so I'm not even sure how long people think the
    effective spoke length is for L in the t = (L x F) / (4 x D)
    fixed-point equation.

    As the spoke is squeezed, the rim bends up to 6 mm sideways, while the
    spokes slide up to 10 mm over each other at the crossing bend.

    I don't know where to find a fixed point for measuring the spoke
    deflection to less than half a millimeter, which seems like the outer
    limits of accuracy.

    I don't have a a radial wheel, which would at least eliminate the
    crossing bend.

    The pipe-clamp rig lacks the crossing bend, too, and would probably be
    much easier to get a stable reference point. But it's so much stiffer
    than any wheel that I doubt that a comparison would be useful. Squeeze
    spokes on a wheel, and you can see the rim doing things next to the
    brake pad. Squeeze a spoke in a pipe clamp rig with both hands, and
    you just hurt your hands while trying to spot any movement at the
    ends. (As far as I can tell, you can't true a pipe-clamp appreciably
    by turning a spoke nipple.)

    So I'm still looking into things, but so far I haven't seen any
    approach that lets me measure deflection accurately enough to be
    useful on my crude rigs. I'd worry that I was shading things to suit
    my preconceptions.

    If I seem to be too picky about the possible effects of unconscious
    bias, re-read the first three sentences of the last paragraph of this
    post carefully:

    http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.misc/msg/051f005251748480

    As for your uncalibrated Park tension gauge, it sounds as if I need to
    start a thread about whether my older gauge is gaining value. 🙂

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  4. "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    If the margin of error is +/- 0.5 mm, then our first tension is really
    215~248 pounds, while our second tension is 274~298 pounds.

    That would mean that the tension rise for adding the second 26-pound
    weight is between 26 pounds (274-248) and 83 pounds (298-215), or
    anywhere from 1-to-1 to 1-to-3.

    Good point Carl! I wonder if you might be interested in repeating a few
    of your "side load on the spoke" tests using the pipe clamp, and also a
    wheel with radial spokes (if you have one), and this time take precise
    deflection measurements as well as Park gauge readings, to see if they
    match... within the margin of error at least.

    Quoted message said:

    Yet the argument is that the Park tool must be less accurate . . .

    Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a spoke
    and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a handwritten date
    and the inspector's initials:

    http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg

    Hey! There is no note on mine! I suspect they are skipping the
    calibration step these days...

    Hummm...there isn't a calibration stamp on my tool either.
    Yet it seems more than accurate enough for my purposes.
    Do you have access to one of these super neat FSA tensometers to compare
    with?
    I wonder if they are a lot more accurate or only marginally more accurate.

  5. Earl Bollinger said:

    "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    If the margin of error is +/- 0.5 mm, then our first tension is really
    215~248 pounds, while our second tension is 274~298 pounds.

    That would mean that the tension rise for adding the second 26-pound
    weight is between 26 pounds (274-248) and 83 pounds (298-215), or
    anywhere from 1-to-1 to 1-to-3.


    Good point Carl! I wonder if you might be interested in repeating a few
    of your "side load on the spoke" tests using the pipe clamp, and also a
    wheel with radial spokes (if you have one), and this time take precise
    deflection measurements as well as Park gauge readings, to see if they
    match... within the margin of error at least.

    Quoted message said:

    Yet the argument is that the Park tool must be less accurate . . .

    Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a spoke
    and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a handwritten date
    and the inspector's initials:

    http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg


    Hey! There is no note on mine! I suspect they are skipping the
    calibration step these days...

    Hummm...there isn't a calibration stamp on my tool either.
    Yet it seems more than accurate enough for my purposes.
    Do you have access to one of these super neat FSA tensometers to compare
    with?
    I wonder if they are a lot more accurate or only marginally more accurate.


    personally, i'd trust the accuracy of the park more since, from what i
    can gather, the park is empirically calibrated to take account of
    stiffer spokes with thicker spoke gauge whereas the fsa appears not.
    [its designer didn't take the spoke stiffness component into account in
    their math.]

  6. On 31 Dec 2006 14:51:32 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Quoted message said:

    If the margin of error is +/- 0.5 mm, then our first tension is really
    215~248 pounds, while our second tension is 274~298 pounds.

    That would mean that the tension rise for adding the second 26-pound
    weight is between 26 pounds (274-248) and 83 pounds (298-215), or
    anywhere from 1-to-1 to 1-to-3.

    Good point Carl! I wonder if you might be interested in repeating a few
    of your "side load on the spoke" tests using the pipe clamp, and also a
    wheel with radial spokes (if you have one), and this time take precise
    deflection measurements as well as Park gauge readings, to see if they
    match... within the margin of error at least.

    Quoted message said:

    Yet the argument is that the Park tool must be less accurate . . .

    Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a spoke
    and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a handwritten date
    and the inspector's initials:

    http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg

    Hey! There is no note on mine! I suspect they are skipping the
    calibration step these days...

    Dear Ron,

    As I mentioned in my first reply, I can't figure out a way to find a
    stable reference point to measure the deflection of the bending spoke
    in the cat's cradle of a wheel, at least not to measure to less than
    half a millimeter while the spokes are being bent and the rim is
    twisting.

    I was staring at a wheel, spinning it and telling myself why this
    point and that point wouldn't work.

    The nearby spoke is a crossing spoke. The rim deforms. The fork gets
    in the way of hanging weights, and besides, everything deforms toward
    it. The hub--

    The middle of the hub is pretty well fixed. It doesn't care if the
    wheel turns a little this way or that as you hang weights on it,
    because it turns as the spoke turns.

    Some kind of doo-hickey that clamps around the hub might let you put a
    wire arm out to where you plan to bend the spoke and work as a
    reference point for measuring with confidence to within a quarter of a
    spoke thickness.

    But even the hub may not work to within half a millimeter, since the
    far end of the spoke at the rim is moving laterally a couple of
    millimeters.

    Well, maybe after the holiday I'll stare at a wheel some more.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  7. In article <[email hidden]>,

    jim beam said:
    Earl Bollinger said:

    "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] wrote:
    > If the margin of error is +/- 0.5 mm, then our first tension is
    > really 215~248 pounds, while our second tension is 274~298
    > pounds.
    >
    > That would mean that the tension rise for adding the second
    > 26-pound weight is between 26 pounds (274-248) and 83 pounds
    > (298-215), or anywhere from 1-to-1 to 1-to-3.

    Good point Carl! I wonder if you might be interested in repeating
    a few of your "side load on the spoke" tests using the pipe clamp,
    and also a wheel with radial spokes (if you have one), and this
    time take precise deflection measurements as well as Park gauge
    readings, to see if they match... within the margin of error at
    least.

    > Yet the argument is that the Park tool must be less accurate . .
    >
    > Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a
    > spoke and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a
    > handwritten date and the inspector's initials:
    >
    > http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg
    Hey! There is no note on mine! I suspect they are skipping the
    calibration step these days...

    Hummm...there isn't a calibration stamp on my tool either. Yet it
    seems more than accurate enough for my purposes. Do you have access
    to one of these super neat FSA tensometers to compare with? I
    wonder if they are a lot more accurate or only marginally more
    accurate.


    personally, i'd trust the accuracy of the park more since, from what
    i can gather, the park is empirically calibrated to take account of
    stiffer spokes with thicker spoke gauge whereas the fsa appears not.
    [its designer didn't take the spoke stiffness component into account
    in their math.]

    You've really ramped up your nastiness in the past few months, jim,
    taking any opportunity you can for personal attacks. Sadly it only
    demonstrates the weakness of your position. I hope that the next year
    goes better for you, having watched the increasing bitterness that you
    have shown over 2006.

  8. Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    jim beam said:
    Earl Bollinger said:

    "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...
    > [email hidden] wrote:
    >> If the margin of error is +/- 0.5 mm, then our first tension is
    >> really 215~248 pounds, while our second tension is 274~298
    >> pounds.
    >>
    >> That would mean that the tension rise for adding the second
    >> 26-pound weight is between 26 pounds (274-248) and 83 pounds
    >> (298-215), or anywhere from 1-to-1 to 1-to-3.
    > Good point Carl! I wonder if you might be interested in repeating
    > a few of your "side load on the spoke" tests using the pipe clamp,
    > and also a wheel with radial spokes (if you have one), and this
    > time take precise deflection measurements as well as Park gauge
    > readings, to see if they match... within the margin of error at
    > least.
    >
    >> Yet the argument is that the Park tool must be less accurate . .
    >>
    >> Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a
    >> spoke and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a
    >> handwritten date and the inspector's initials:
    >>
    >> http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg
    > Hey! There is no note on mine! I suspect they are skipping the
    > calibration step these days...
    Hummm...there isn't a calibration stamp on my tool either. Yet it
    seems more than accurate enough for my purposes. Do you have access
    to one of these super neat FSA tensometers to compare with? I
    wonder if they are a lot more accurate or only marginally more
    accurate.


    personally, i'd trust the accuracy of the park more since, from what
    i can gather, the park is empirically calibrated to take account of
    stiffer spokes with thicker spoke gauge whereas the fsa appears not.
    [its designer didn't take the spoke stiffness component into account
    in their math.]

    You've really ramped up your nastiness in the past few months, jim,
    taking any opportunity you can for personal attacks. Sadly it only
    demonstrates the weakness of your position. I hope that the next year
    goes better for you, having watched the increasing bitterness that you
    have shown over 2006.

    do /you/ see any account of spoke gauge in the formula T = FL/4d? does
    it not matter? http://i18.tinypic.com/30c6a3c.jpg

    but we go through the same old thing with you each and every year. you
    get stuck home because of the weather, you get cabin fever, you try and
    pick a personal fight on the net where you can't get hurt.

    happy 2007 tim. let this be the year you learn the difference between
    personal animus and technical disagreement.

  9. In article <[email hidden]>,

    jim beam said:
    Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    jim beam said:

    Earl Bollinger wrote:
    > "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    > news:[email hidden]...
    >> [email hidden] wrote:
    >>> If the margin of error is +/- 0.5 mm, then our first tension is
    >>> really 215~248 pounds, while our second tension is 274~298
    >>> pounds.
    >>>
    >>> That would mean that the tension rise for adding the second
    >>> 26-pound weight is between 26 pounds (274-248) and 83 pounds
    >>> (298-215), or anywhere from 1-to-1 to 1-to-3.
    >> Good point Carl! I wonder if you might be interested in
    >> repeating a few of your "side load on the spoke" tests using the
    >> pipe clamp, and also a wheel with radial spokes (if you have
    >> one), and this time take precise deflection measurements as well
    >> as Park gauge readings, to see if they match... within the
    >> margin of error at least.
    >>
    >>> Yet the argument is that the Park tool must be less accurate .
    >>> .
    >>>
    >>> Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a
    >>> spoke and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a
    >>> handwritten date and the inspector's initials:
    >>>
    >>> http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg
    >> Hey! There is no note on mine! I suspect they are skipping the
    >> calibration step these days...
    > Hummm...there isn't a calibration stamp on my tool either. Yet it
    > seems more than accurate enough for my purposes. Do you have
    > access to one of these super neat FSA tensometers to compare
    > with? I wonder if they are a lot more accurate or only marginally
    > more accurate.
    >
    >
    personally, i'd trust the accuracy of the park more since, from
    what i can gather, the park is empirically calibrated to take
    account of stiffer spokes with thicker spoke gauge whereas the fsa
    appears not. [its designer didn't take the spoke stiffness
    component into account in their math.]

    You've really ramped up your nastiness in the past few months, jim,
    taking any opportunity you can for personal attacks. Sadly it only
    demonstrates the weakness of your position. I hope that the next
    year goes better for you, having watched the increasing bitterness
    that you have shown over 2006.

    do /you/ see any account of spoke gauge in the formula T = FL/4d?
    does it not matter? http://i18.tinypic.com/30c6a3c.jpg

    A tensiometer that can be zeroed out on a spoke reduces this problem.
    That's a basic approach in scientific measurement, n'est-ce pas? Never
    having used one of Park, DT or FSA tensiometers I don't know if they can
    be zeroed out. The Wheelsmith one can be.

    As for spoke gauge and thickness, Jobst has referred to this in the past
    in discussing how his original tensiometer was designed to avoid that
    particular pitfall. He has also discussed the issue of friction binding
    between the posts of the tensiometer and the spoke.

    Quoted message said:

    but we go through the same old thing with you each and every year.
    you get stuck home because of the weather, you get cabin fever, you
    try and pick a personal fight on the net where you can't get hurt.

    LOL. Actually, jim, if you look back you'll see that I've been quite
    consistent for years. Weather's not got anything to do with it. The
    past 15 years winter cycling has generally been quite good here thanks
    to having had the 10-12 warmest winters on record in that time frame. I
    find your lack of intellectual rigor and proneness to ad hominem just as
    annoying in August as in January.

    Quoted message said:

    happy 2007 tim. let this be the year you learn the difference
    between personal animus and technical disagreement.

    I do know the difference, jim. Unfortunately you let your feelings
    towards Jobst overwhelm your logic all too often. Your posts have
    gotten increasingly hostile and bitter, aimed not at expanding the
    knowledge of bicycles but solely at taking Jobst down a peg or two. You
    even manage to work in attacks on Jobst into threads where those attacks
    are completely irrelevant. The result is that the worth of your
    contributions is near zero.

    The result is that you fail to convince. With the exception of Carl
    Fogel, few people if any seem to come around to your thinking in these
    discussions. Why is that? Because your comments are so clearly
    intended to be hurtful and this outweighs the technical merits that your
    posts might have. You come across like a sullen teenager not as a
    reasoned scientist. You start with ad hominem and work your way out
    from there, which just undermines your position in the eyes of your
    readers. And anyone who dares to question your claims just gets a
    helping of invective from you. Even when Jobst agrees with you on
    something you continue to hurl abuse at him.

    Your posts are an interesting mish-mash. On the one hand you claim
    technical knowledge. On the other hand, you distort or outright lie
    about what other people say so you can "defeat" them. When your
    position is challenged effectively, you start to squirm around, begin
    casting out red herrings and change the subject. On one hand you
    challenge the accuracy of what others write, but then you demand that
    they do the experiments to prove you right instead of doing it yourself
    and posting the results. You fail to have the courage to propose a
    consistent, comprehensive theory of wheels and wheel building. You just
    snipe away at other people. It's sad because your contributions here
    could be useful and positive, but that just doesn't seem to be what you
    are about.

    It's the evident bitterness in your posts over a course of years that
    puzzles me. I understand Jobst's tetchiness, as he's been fielding
    attacks for decades over the statements in his book, in the FAQ, etc.
    I've had arguments with Jobst over the past 12-13 years and have been
    the recipient of a number of whacks upside the head on a number of
    topics. Heck, darn near the first thing I did in the newsgroup was to
    get into an argument with Jobst. Unlike you, though, I have ended up
    with respect for Jobst even when we disagree.

    Your negative cathexis with Jobst appears to go way beyond disagreeing
    with him about technical matters, and it bleeds out into your
    discussions with others. It seems to me that you have confused the
    importance of *what* is right with that of *who* is right. Your ongoing
    animus towards Jobst has all the hallmarks of being about who is right
    rather than what it right. Your overt disrespect for Jobst, for me, and
    for anyone who dares to disagree with you does you no credit.

  10. Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    jim beam said:
    Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > Earl Bollinger wrote:
    >> "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    >> news:[email hidden]...
    >>> [email hidden] wrote:
    >>>> If the margin of error is +/- 0.5 mm, then our first tension is
    >>>> really 215~248 pounds, while our second tension is 274~298
    >>>> pounds.
    >>>>
    >>>> That would mean that the tension rise for adding the second
    >>>> 26-pound weight is between 26 pounds (274-248) and 83 pounds
    >>>> (298-215), or anywhere from 1-to-1 to 1-to-3.
    >>> Good point Carl! I wonder if you might be interested in
    >>> repeating a few of your "side load on the spoke" tests using the
    >>> pipe clamp, and also a wheel with radial spokes (if you have
    >>> one), and this time take precise deflection measurements as well
    >>> as Park gauge readings, to see if they match... within the
    >>> margin of error at least.
    >>>
    >>>> Yet the argument is that the Park tool must be less accurate .
    >>>> .
    >>>>
    >>>> Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a
    >>>> spoke and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a
    >>>> handwritten date and the inspector's initials:
    >>>>
    >>>> http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg
    >>> Hey! There is no note on mine! I suspect they are skipping the
    >>> calibration step these days...
    >> Hummm...there isn't a calibration stamp on my tool either. Yet it
    >> seems more than accurate enough for my purposes. Do you have
    >> access to one of these super neat FSA tensometers to compare
    >> with? I wonder if they are a lot more accurate or only marginally
    >> more accurate.
    >>
    >>
    > personally, i'd trust the accuracy of the park more since, from
    > what i can gather, the park is empirically calibrated to take
    > account of stiffer spokes with thicker spoke gauge whereas the fsa
    > appears not. [its designer didn't take the spoke stiffness
    > component into account in their math.]
    You've really ramped up your nastiness in the past few months, jim,
    taking any opportunity you can for personal attacks. Sadly it only
    demonstrates the weakness of your position. I hope that the next
    year goes better for you, having watched the increasing bitterness
    that you have shown over 2006.


    do /you/ see any account of spoke gauge in the formula T = FL/4d?
    does it not matter? http://i18.tinypic.com/30c6a3c.jpg

    A tensiometer that can be zeroed out on a spoke reduces this problem.
    That's a basic approach in scientific measurement, n'est-ce pas?

    absolutely not. thicker spokes resist /bending/. just moving the
    calibration to account for a different starting point has /nothing/ to
    do with addressing bending resistance.

    Quoted message said:

    Never
    having used one of Park, DT or FSA tensiometers I don't know if they can
    be zeroed out. The Wheelsmith one can be.

    see above.

    Quoted message said:


    As for spoke gauge and thickness, Jobst has referred to this in the past
    in discussing how his original tensiometer was designed to avoid that
    particular pitfall.

    like you, he's figured out addressing the starting point, but the
    fundamental issue of bending stiffness is unaddressed.

    Quoted message said:

    He has also discussed the issue of friction binding
    between the posts of the tensiometer and the spoke.

    indeed, but that's not in the math either.

    <snip remaining self-justification>

  11. Quoted message said:


    I can't see any good way to measure the deflection on a typical
    cross-3 wheel.

    The spoke starts with the ~ 4 degree crossing bend trying to
    straighten out, so I'm not even sure how long people think the
    effective spoke length is for L in the t = (L x F) / (4 x D)
    fixed-point equation.

    As the spoke is squeezed, the rim bends up to 6 mm sideways, while the
    spokes slide up to 10 mm over each other at the crossing bend.

    I don't know where to find a fixed point for measuring the spoke
    deflection to less than half a millimeter, which seems like the outer
    limits of accuracy.

    Let me ask again:

    Do you realize that the pertinent piece of data is the angle that the
    bent spoke assumes?

    Have you read the material at
    http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/class/vectors/u3l3c.html
    especially problem #5 at the bottom?

    The equation you're using for tension is derived from consideration of
    the angles involved and their effect on force equilibrium. At least,
    that's how I worked it out. The terms "L" and "D" in the equation come
    from trig, specifically from the tangent of a certain angle.

    Granted, angles that small are difficult to measure directly. If I
    were trying to do it directly, I'd use a vernier bevel protractor, but
    it's easier to measure deflection over a span. However, since it's
    the angle that matters, not the span, you can use any convenient length
    for the span. Just get the corresponding deflection within that span.

    As an example, you might use a depth micrometer, letting the base
    contact the bent spoke at the two "long" ends of the mike's base. Use
    the length of the base as "L" in your equation. Use the deflection
    within that length as the "D" term.

    - Frank Krygowski

  12. In article <[email hidden]>,

    jim beam said:
    Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    jim beam said:

    do /you/ see any account of spoke gauge in the formula T = FL/4d?
    does it not matter? http://i18.tinypic.com/30c6a3c.jpg

    A tensiometer that can be zeroed out on a spoke reduces this
    problem. That's a basic approach in scientific measurement,
    n'est-ce pas?

    absolutely not. thicker spokes resist /bending/. just moving the
    calibration to account for a different starting point has /nothing/
    to do with addressing bending resistance.

    Spokes resist bending and thicker spokes offer more resistance. In
    order to accurately measure the tension of the spoke, you have to
    subtract the stiffness of the spoke. You can do that readily with a
    free spoke prior to measuring the tension of the spokes in the wheel,
    zeroing out the tensiometer against the stiffness of the spoke.

  13. Quoted message said:

    Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a spoke
    and comes with a factory calibration stamp, with a handwritten date
    and the inspector's initials:

    http://i10.tinypic.com/47i07xv.jpg

    That is impressive! What's the guaranteed accuracy?

  14. Quoted message said:

    Stiffer, in fact, than a massively braced pipe-clamp rig with no spoke
    crossing that achieved only a 1.5-to-1 ratio when measured with a Park
    tension gauge.

    What were the deflections? (3rd request)

  15. Quoted message said:

    Even though it accurately measures a 190-lb weight hung from a spoke

    How does it do with a 400lb weight?

  16. Quoted message said:

    After measuring our single spoke, we declare that the test gives us
    what we wanted, that it proves that literally hundreds of spoke tests
    on other wheels with a Park gauge that showed nothing better than
    1-to-1 ratios must be wrong,

    Maybe I'm misreading, but
    <http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/squeeze1_tension_relative.jpg>
    seems to show one spoke rose almost 90lb with a 60lb squeeze.

  17. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Peter Cole said:
    Quoted message said:

    After measuring our single spoke, we declare that the test gives us
    what we wanted, that it proves that literally hundreds of spoke
    tests on other wheels with a Park gauge that showed nothing better
    than 1-to-1 ratios must be wrong,

    Maybe I'm misreading, but
    <http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/squeeze1_tension_relative
    .jpg> seems to show one spoke rose almost 90lb with a 60lb squeeze.

    And in both cases the increase in tension is higher than the squeeze
    force. At a 60 pound squeeze, the spoke tension rose to neatly 300 lbs
    in both cases. And interestingly only one of the two spokes loses
    tension, which suggests a flaw in measurement or methodology.

  18. Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    jim beam said:
    Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    jim beam <[email hidden]> wrote:

    > do /you/ see any account of spoke gauge in the formula T = FL/4d?
    > does it not matter? http://i18.tinypic.com/30c6a3c.jpg
    A tensiometer that can be zeroed out on a spoke reduces this
    problem. That's a basic approach in scientific measurement,
    n'est-ce pas?


    absolutely not. thicker spokes resist /bending/. just moving the
    calibration to account for a different starting point has /nothing/
    to do with addressing bending resistance.

    Spokes resist bending and thicker spokes offer more resistance. In
    order to accurately measure the tension of the spoke, you have to
    subtract the stiffness of the spoke. You can do that readily with a
    free spoke prior to measuring the tension of the spokes in the wheel,
    zeroing out the tensiometer against the stiffness of the spoke.

    no, that gives only one bend. a spoke in tension has three of them when
    a tensiometer is used.

  19. Tim McNamara said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Peter Cole said:
    Quoted message said:

    After measuring our single spoke, we declare that the test gives us
    what we wanted, that it proves that literally hundreds of spoke
    tests on other wheels with a Park gauge that showed nothing better
    than 1-to-1 ratios must be wrong,

    Maybe I'm misreading, but
    <http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/squeeze1_tension_relative
    .jpg> seems to show one spoke rose almost 90lb with a 60lb squeeze.

    And in both cases the increase in tension is higher than the squeeze
    force. At a 60 pound squeeze, the spoke tension rose to neatly 300 lbs
    in both cases. And interestingly only one of the two spokes loses
    tension, which suggests a flaw in measurement or methodology.

    Dear Tim,

    Actually, the two spokes behave consistently. One spoke loses
    initially, the other stays about the same--which spoke starts out at
    higher tension seems to govern things.

    Even if you look at idealized, computer-generated models with
    initially identical spoke tensions, you'll find that spoke tension
    does not change with as much symmetry as we'd like:

    http://www.astounding.org.uk/ian/wheel/index.html

    Browse down to Ian's table and look at first spoke on either side of
    the five bottom spokes that lose tension. It's normal to expect them
    to be symmetrical, but spoke 16's raw tension change is predicted to
    be 31 N, while spoke 22's raw tension change is predicted to be only
    18 N, about half as much.

    Real tests rarely show perfect curves. Indeed, what surprised me about
    this test was how symmetrical the results were:

    http://i10.tinypic.com/2njccc9.jpg

    Anyway, draw a line to fit the 40 data points for each spoke here:

    http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/squeeze1_tension_relative.jpg

    The general trend is clear--about a 1-to-1 ratio between squeeze force
    and tension increase, not 2-to-1 or 5-to-1. That was a single test run
    at 5-lb increments to confirm that nothing large was being missed, not
    repeated testing at a specific load.

    Here's what collecting hundreds of repeated readings can do:

    http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/download/squeeze1_calibrate.jpg

    Stretch it out to fill the screen, and the blue line of data is about
    as wiggly as the other graph.

    The blue line shows the average for multiple tests just to calibrate
    the tool when one post was on a 1.8 mm midspan and the other post was
    on a 2.0 mm nipple end. As I recall, there were several data points
    for each 0.1 step from 20.0 to 26.0 on the Park scale. (It turns out
    that the result is always a little higher than just averaging straight
    2.0 mm and straight 1.8 mm spokes.)

    The yellow and red lines are from the Park table. The green line is a
    simple average of the two. Note that the blue line averaging hundreds
    of actual readings waves about as much as the single-wheel tests
    instead of staying precisely between the yellow and green lines.

    That's real-world variation.

    But initial tension does keep dropping for one spoke in a squeezed
    pair, while the other spoke stays the same. After the initial odd
    behavior at 5 to 20 lbs of squeeze force, both start climbing. It
    happens on wheel after wheel.

    As for claims that some wheel must see twice as much tension increase
    as other wheels, someone may someday apply a tension gauge to a real
    wheel and find that its spokes gain two pounds of tension per pound of
    squeeze force over a reasonable range of forces and a reasonable
    number of tests.

    They could be out there, but I never measured such a wheel.

    What surprised me was how low the measured tension increases were. I'd
    been led to expect much higher increases by conjectures on RBT.

    But a spoke in a massively braced pipe-clamp rig achieves only 1.5
    pounds of tension increase per pound of squeeze force.

    It could be that the real advantage of the pipe-clamp rig is the lack
    of a springy spoke crossing. If so, it's likely that no one wheel is
    appreciably stiffer in the face of spoke-squeezing.

    Unfortunately, radial-spoked wheels are so rare that I have little
    hope of anyone testing them.

    The bottom line is that I'll be surprised if someone finds a wheel
    that registers a 100-lb tension increase on a tension gauge with a
    50-lb squeeze force, or 120 lbs with a 60-lb squeeze.

    Anyone can mail me a wheel for testing, and I'll pay to ship it back.
    I'd love to find a wheel that behaved significantly differently when I
    put a tension gauge on it.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  20. Quoted message said:

    So I put a spoke in a vise-rig and hung two weights from its midspan
    by thin wires. I also laid a thin ruler flat across the vise jaws to
    serve as a reference plane when I measured the small deflection.

    The length of the span between the vise jaws was 4.545", the two
    weights together weighed 19 lbs 2.5 ounces (19.15625 lbs), and the
    downward deflection was a suspiciously round 0.120", so I've
    calculated the tension for 0.110, 0.120, and 0.130 inches.

    (4.545 x 19.15625) / (4 x 0.110) = 212 lbs tension
    (4.545 x 19.15625) / (4 x 0.120) = 195 lbs tension
    (4.545 x 19.15625) / (4 x 0.130) = 180 lbs tension

    Whatever the spoke's original tension was, it certainly looks as if it
    must have risen to around 195 lbs.

    But despite my faultless theory and careful measurements, a small
    correction seems to be needed to get the correct spoke tension:

    http://i18.tinypic.com/30c6a3c.jpg

    🙂

    A real wheel may have a few smaller confounding factors hidden in it
    that aren't as easily revealed.

    So much for deceiving trusting readers as an object lesson. There are
    no hidden flaws in what follows--at least no _deliberately_ hidden
    flaws. Like anyone else, I may be blind to what's wrong with my
    explanations.

    This is clever but a somewhat misleading example
    because the supports of your test rig were only 4.5" apart.
    That is ~115 mm, while when hanging weights from a
    spoke in a wheel, the spoke is supported at its ends
    about 280 mm apart.

    The reason this is a big deal is that the deflection of an
    untensioned beam under a side load goes as the length
    of the beam cubed. However, the deflection of a tensioned
    rope (rope = the limit of zero stiffness against bending)
    goes linearly with the length. So if you test a shorter span,
    it exaggerates the importance of the bending stiffness.

    In formulae, the bending deflection is w = FL^3 / (48*E*I)
    where F is the side load force, L is the beam length, E is
    the modulus of elasticity and I is the moment of inertia of
    the beam (spoke).
    The deflection of the tensioned rope is w = FL / (4*T)
    where T is the tension.

    If you had done this with the vise jaws 280mm apart, the
    deflection would have been (280/115)^3 = 14.4 times
    larger or about 43mm. Applying the tension equation
    would have yielded an estimate of about 30 lbs tension.
    This is still erroneous since the spoke wasn't tensioned.
    It's a lot less erroneous than ~180 lbs though.

    Another way of arriving at that number is that because
    the deflection from bending goes as L^3 and the deflection
    against tension goes as L, their relative importance goes
    as L^2. Thus one expects your setup to exaggerate the
    pseudo-tension estimate by about (280/115)^2 = 5.9
    over the full-length case.

    I appreciate that the reasons you set the jaws only 115mm
    apart were likely limitations of the size of the vise, the length
    of the spoke, and the need to keep the spoke from falling
    through. However, it is important when doing experiments,
    to keep the theory close at hand. Theory without experiment
    is vacuous; experiment without theory is blind.

    Ben

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