Spoke tension and tire mounting questions

Quoted message said:

As for what keeps a solid tire in place, I'd guess that it's like a
big version of a solid wheelchair tire, tight enough to stay in place
on its own, but maybe a wheel that big needs some other trick to keep
a tire that thin from rolling off.

Dear Carl:

I can't give you a definitive answer ('cause I've never seen this in
person), but as I understand it:

The "tire" is actually a very long, very heavy rubber tube, and
there's a wire down the center of it. The correct length is wrapped
around the rim and the ends of the wire twisted together to hold the
assembly under tension. The twisted section is then pushed into the
hollow, making a relatively seamless tire.

These people probably know: http://www.hiwheel.com/

Jeff
Happy April 1st Eve!

Carl Fogel said:

The same wretched friend who plagued me by asking how fast light and
heavy tires roll downhill has struck again.

Quoted message said:

This time, his email asked me what spoke tension is proper for this
bicycle's front wheel:

http://i12.tinypic.com/2mzl8jb.jpg

Quoted message said:

He also asked what keeps the solid tire in place.

We had a video recently on this forum in which a rider of such a
replica also did not know what kept tires on. From what I've seen
these tires were thick walled tubes with a joint and a wire inside
that made mounting them a tight task. The rider in the video did not
have that under control and because his tire was apparently glued to
some degree, caused a moving slack wave that ultimately allowed the
tire to separate from the rim casing his rim scraping crash.

Quoted message said:

Damned if I know.

I haven't mounted one of these tires but the penny-farthing club might
know, although they often are more into collecting these things rather
than riding longer distances.

Quoted message said:

(I only put the picture up in another thread because Sergio Servadio
emailed it to me with a lot of nice pictures of the spoon brake.)

Quoted message said:

I think that my friend is right that it's a solid tire, since solid
tires were traditional, I don't see a valve stem in the picture
above, and the tire looks kinda-sorta solid here:

http://i5.tinypic.com/2hxookg.jpg

Quoted message said:

Does anyone have experience with building penny-farthing wheels?
I'm guessing 72 long spokes, but I have no idea what kind of tension
they use.

Not more tension than a 36-spoke modern rim considering the buckling
strength of the rim in compression, the load being roughly N*T/(2*PI)
number of spokes * tension divided by 2*Pi. Because this is a real
antique rim, it has a substantial, possibly hollow, cross section
instead of the 1/3 circular U-shaped rim that many replicas use. To
make up for that, it has elegant modern spokes and nipples. As most
pictures from that era show, nearly all of these had radial fat black
spokes. It was John Starley who introduced cross lacing to prevent
crashes that resulted from the all too common broken spoke.

Quoted message said:

As for what keeps a solid tire in place, I'd guess that it's like a
big version of a solid wheelchair tire, tight enough to stay in
place on its own, but maybe a wheel that big needs some other trick
to keep a tire that thin from rolling off.

Could be but apparently not, from the video we saw here.

Jobst Brandt

Jeff Wills said:

Quoted message said:

As for what keeps a solid tire in place, I'd guess that it's like a
big version of a solid wheelchair tire, tight enough to stay in place
on its own, but maybe a wheel that big needs some other trick to keep
a tire that thin from rolling off.

Quoted message said:

I can't give you a definitive answer ('cause I've never seen this in
person), but as I understand it:

Quoted message said:

The "tire" is actually a very long, very heavy rubber tube, and
there's a wire down the center of it. The correct length is wrapped
around the rim and the ends of the wire twisted together to hold the
assembly under tension. The twisted section is then pushed into the
hollow, making a relatively seamless tire.

Quoted message said:

These people probably know: http://www.hiwheel.com/

The bicycle pictured at that URL is a replica with not much in common
with the bicycle in Sergio's museum. They may not know how it worked.
I think you have it correctly in your description.

Jobst Brandt

On 31 Mar 2007 17:45:35 -0700, "JeffWills" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for what keeps a solid tire in place, I'd guess that it's like a
big version of a solid wheelchair tire, tight enough to stay in place
on its own, but maybe a wheel that big needs some other trick to keep
a tire that thin from rolling off.

Dear Carl:

I can't give you a definitive answer ('cause I've never seen this in
person), but as I understand it:

The "tire" is actually a very long, very heavy rubber tube, and
there's a wire down the center of it. The correct length is wrapped
around the rim and the ends of the wire twisted together to hold the
assembly under tension. The twisted section is then pushed into the
hollow, making a relatively seamless tire.

These people probably know: http://www.hiwheel.com/

Jeff
Happy April 1st Eve!

Dear Jeff,

Curse you! Now I have to resist the urge to order their collection of
antique bicycle catalog reprints for only $112.40:

http://www.hiwheel.com/antique_catalog_reprints/index.htm

Maybe browsing this newfangled catalog again will help:

http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/morley/index.htm

I looked for tires on the hiwheel site, but saw nothing for sale.

Their spokes startled me:

Stainless Steel Spokes
from 2 1/2" long up to 47 3/4" long
.105, .120, .125 thousandths thick

http://www.hiwheel.com/accessories_main.htm#spokes

Those inch thicknesses seemed awfully big to me, and converting them
to millimeters confirmed my suspicions:

.7874" = 2.000 mm (normal spoke)
.1050" = 2.667 mm
.1200" = 3.048 mm
.1250" = 3.175 mm

Thanks for the link!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Jeff Wills said:

Quoted message said:

As for what keeps a solid tire in place, I'd guess that it's like a
big version of a solid wheelchair tire, tight enough to stay in place
on its own, but maybe a wheel that big needs some other trick to keep
a tire that thin from rolling off.

Quoted message said:

I can't give you a definitive answer ('cause I've never seen this in
person), but as I understand it:

Quoted message said:

The "tire" is actually a very long, very heavy rubber tube, and
there's a wire down the center of it. The correct length is wrapped
around the rim and the ends of the wire twisted together to hold the
assembly under tension. The twisted section is then pushed into the
hollow, making a relatively seamless tire.

Quoted message said:

These people probably know: http://www.hiwheel.com/

The bicycle pictured at that URL is a replica with not much in common
with the bicycle in Sergio's museum. They may not know how it worked.
I think you have it correctly in your description.

Jobst Brandt

Dear Jobst,

I couldn't find any tires at the site that Jeff suggested, but I think
that this passage (weird enough to deserve reading on its own)
indicates that the site uses solid tires with a seam:

"Spokes may loosen occasionally. Use the spoke tool carefully, do not
overtighten. Sometimes excessive temperature variations will cause
front tire to gap at the seam. Turn rear of wheel to front, grease
exposed area of rim and ride four to five miles. Gap will close. Put a
touch of grease on the front wheel bearing if it squeaks. Riding
should be done with the utmost caution and extreme care."

http://www.hiwheel.com/how2ride_main.htm

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

The same wretched friend who plagued me by asking how fast light and
heavy tires roll downhill has struck again.

This time, his email asked me what spoke tension is proper for this
bicycle's front wheel:

http://i12.tinypic.com/2mzl8jb.jpg

He also asked what keeps the solid tire in place.

Damned if I know.

(I only put the picture up in another thread because Sergio Servadio
emailed it to me with a lot of nice pictures of the spoon brake.)

I think that my friend is right that it's a solid tire, since solid
tires were traditional, I don't see a valve stem in the picture above,
and the tire looks kinda-sorta solid here:

http://i5.tinypic.com/2hxookg.jpg

Does anyone have experience with building penny-farthing wheels? I'm
guessing 72 long spokes, but I have no idea what kind of tension they
use.

As for what keeps a solid tire in place, I'd guess that it's like a
big version of a solid wheelchair tire, tight enough to stay in place
on its own, but maybe a wheel that big needs some other trick to keep
a tire that thin from rolling off.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Browsing around suggests at least three methods of keeping solid tires
on big rims.

1) An endless ribbon of tire is cut in sections to fit the wheel. The
ends of an embedded wire are twisted together to pull the ends
together. (Jeff Wills and Jobst mentioned this.)

2) Or the tire can be glued onto a rim, according an 1887 Rudge high
wheeler catalog:

"The TIRES are round, seven-eighth inch full to front, and
three-quarter inch to back, made of the very best quality red Para
rubber. These have been deemed the best sizes for this machine, and
are attached to the rim by a cement process, with great care and
skill."

The catalog goes on to state:

"These tires have a wall-earned reputation for staying in, and can
easily be replaced, when necessary, by the rider himself."

At this point, the catalog just plain boast about the rim:

"The FELLOES are of the Clement hollow pattern, consisting of one
piece of steel tubing rolled and pressed into the proper shape, and
capable of bearing a weight of two hundred pounds, even before a
single spoke has been inserted."

http://tallbike.com/tall/87rudge.html

(I've re-read that 200-lb claim and can't see any way to interpret it
except that the huge, thin hoop is supposed to be strong enough to
hold the weight of a hefty rider!)

3) Or the tire can be a one-piece special shape with big ridges on
each side that snap into special grooves in a rim:

http://tallbike.com/tall/img/tire.jpg

But this no-seam/gap tire may be a modern invention.

CF

Quoted message said:

The same wretched friend who plagued me by asking how fast light and
heavy tires roll downhill has struck again.

This time, his email asked me what spoke tension is proper for this
bicycle's front wheel:

http://i12.tinypic.com/2mzl8jb.jpg

He also asked what keeps the solid tire in place.

Damned if I know.

(I only put the picture up in another thread because Sergio Servadio
emailed it to me with a lot of nice pictures of the spoon brake.)

I think that my friend is right that it's a solid tire, since solid
tires were traditional, I don't see a valve stem in the picture above,
and the tire looks kinda-sorta solid here:

http://i5.tinypic.com/2hxookg.jpg

Does anyone have experience with building penny-farthing wheels? I'm
guessing 72 long spokes, but I have no idea what kind of tension they
use.

As for what keeps a solid tire in place, I'd guess that it's like a
big version of a solid wheelchair tire, tight enough to stay in place
on its own, but maybe a wheel that big needs some other trick to keep
a tire that thin from rolling off.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Aha!

Interesting how-to pictures for the wire-in-the-tire mounting trick.
Apparently, it's soldered!

http://www.bikeroute.com/HiWheelers/HowMountTire.php

I don't know if the opening comment that the Weidman tiring tool was
invented in the 1970's means that high-wheel riders just pulled the
tire ends apart with their bare hands for the first century, or if the
wire trick was invented by replica riders in the 1970's.

I'd hate to get the equivalent of a flat on a high-wheeler and have to
fix it on the spot.

On the other hand, goatheads wouldn't bother a solid rubber tire . . .

CF

Quoted message said:

The bicycle pictured at that URL is a replica with not much in common
with the bicycle in Sergio's museum.

Mind you, Jobst, that is not a Museum. It is the entrance to my
favorite bike shop near Lucca.

That replica of an antique Pedersen bike was bought by Michele Fanini
after my suggestion, and in fact I ordered it from Germany. Actually,
it was delivered from Checoslovakia where I assume it had been built.
For any question you may have, there is mo problem to ask those guys
directly.

Also, there was a publication, edited in German and in English, called
Encyclepedia where many such strange, and some awkward, beauties were
shown. I got a copy from that German distributor.
Again, no problem to direct you to him or, better yet, ask him to
answer your questions.

No matter what, at the latest this tuesday I shall inspect that indeed
solid tyre to unravel how it was mnounted onto the rim.

Sergio
Pisa

Quoted message said:

(I've re-read that 200-lb claim and can't see any way to interpret it
except that the huge, thin hoop is supposed to be strong enough to
hold the weight of a hefty rider!)

It sounds plausible; I've destroyed old worn-out rims for fun and
they're stronger than you might think. Of course, a built-up wheel can
take something like a ton of static weight at the hub.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As for what keeps a solid tire in place, I'd guess that it's like a
big version of a solid wheelchair tire, tight enough to stay in place
on its own, but maybe a wheel that big needs some other trick to keep
a tire that thin from rolling off.

Quoted message said:

JeffWills said:

I can't give you a definitive answer ('cause I've never seen this in
person), but as I understand it:
The "tire" is actually a very long, very heavy rubber tube, and
there's a wire down the center of it. The correct length is wrapped
around the rim and the ends of the wire twisted together to hold the
assembly under tension. The twisted section is then pushed into the
hollow, making a relatively seamless tire.
These people probably know: http://www.hiwheel.com/

Quoted message said:

Curse you! Now I have to resist the urge to order their collection of
antique bicycle catalog reprints for only $112.40:
http://www.hiwheel.com/antique_catalog_reprints/index.htm
Maybe browsing this newfangled catalog again will help:
http://www.fixedgeargallery.com/morley/index.htm
I looked for tires on the hiwheel site, but saw nothing for sale.
Their spokes startled me:
Stainless Steel Spokes
from 2 1/2" long up to 47 3/4" long
.105, .120, .125 thousandths thick
http://www.hiwheel.com/accessories_main.htm#spokes
Those inch thicknesses seemed awfully big to me, and converting them
to millimeters confirmed my suspicions:
.7874" = 2.000 mm (normal spoke)
.1050" = 2.667 mm
.1200" = 3.048 mm
.1250" = 3.175 mm

In bicycles 0.105" and 0.120" spokes are still used for heavy duty
models with inadequate rims such as Worksman delivery bikes. Thirty
years ago the first wave of BMX bikes used these before modern hollow
rims and 48 14g (0.080"😉 spokes. The 0.125" spoke is unfamiliar to me.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

In bicycles 0.105" and 0.120" spokes are still used for heavy duty
models with inadequate rims such as Worksman delivery bikes. Thirty
years ago the first wave of BMX bikes used these before modern hollow
rims and 48 14g (0.080"😉 spokes. The 0.125" spoke is unfamiliar to me.

..125" is quite close to 8 gauge, which is a common motocycle spoke wire
size.

Quoted message said:

The same wretched friend who plagued me by asking how fast light and
heavy tires roll downhill has struck again.

This time, his email asked me what spoke tension is proper for this
bicycle's front wheel:

http://i12.tinypic.com/2mzl8jb.jpg

He also asked what keeps the solid tire in place.

Damned if I know.

(I only put the picture up in another thread because Sergio Servadio
emailed it to me with a lot of nice pictures of the spoon brake.)

I think that my friend is right that it's a solid tire, since solid
tires were traditional, I don't see a valve stem in the picture above,
and the tire looks kinda-sorta solid here:

http://i5.tinypic.com/2hxookg.jpg

Does anyone have experience with building penny-farthing wheels? I'm
guessing 72 long spokes, but I have no idea what kind of tension they
use.

As for what keeps a solid tire in place, I'd guess that it's like a
big version of a solid wheelchair tire, tight enough to stay in place
on its own, but maybe a wheel that big needs some other trick to keep
a tire that thin from rolling off.

I've installed that cab tiring.

Cab Tire is (was?) sold in spools. Wrap over rim, trim to length (at a
slight angle so the ends mate well.) then a piece of mild steel
mechanic's wire is drawn through the hole in the center of the tire, the
ends pull tight with a special tool and the wire gets twisted tight.
Once the wire's trimmed the tire slides over the twisted wire ends,
almost hiding the seam. You can find the seam if you look for it.

This technology is used for highwheeler (ordinary) replicas but was
formerly the standard tire system for wheelchairs, tea carts, some
gardening equipment, children's trikes and wheel goods, etc after it was
abandoned for bicycles.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

sergio said:

Quoted message said:

The bicycle pictured at that URL is a replica with not much in common
with the bicycle in Sergio's museum.

Mind you, Jobst, that is not a Museum. It is the entrance to my
favorite bike shop near Lucca.

That replica of an antique Pedersen bike was bought by Michele Fanini
after my suggestion, and in fact I ordered it from Germany. Actually,
it was delivered from Checoslovakia where I assume it had been built.
For any question you may have, there is mo problem to ask those guys
directly.

Also, there was a publication, edited in German and in English, called
Encyclepedia where many such strange, and some awkward, beauties were
shown. I got a copy from that German distributor.
Again, no problem to direct you to him or, better yet, ask him to
answer your questions.

No matter what, at the latest this tuesday I shall inspect that indeed
solid tyre to unravel how it was mnounted onto the rim.

Sergio
Pisa

Dear Sergio,

If that highwheeler is a replica from Czechoslovakia, then it may well
have come from here:

http://www.mesicek.cz/main.php?lang=uk

From my browsing, my guess is that you'll find a joint/gap/seam in the
solid rubber tire and that the tire came with a hole running through
its center for a wire like this:

http://www.bikeroute.com/HiWheelers/HowMountTire.php

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

If that highwheeler is a replica from Czechoslovakia, then it may well
have come from here:
http://www.mesicek.cz/main.php?lang=uk

Indeed.
Good intelligence work, Capt.Carl!

Sergio
Pisa