Spoke Tensiometers

Tosspot said:

Yes yes, the sickness continues. However, anyone use one? Any
recommendations. And no, the Swiss DT one is *FAR* too expensive?

I haven't used one, but Park do one that won't break the bank.

http://www.parktool.com/products/detail.asp?cat=16&item=TM%2D1
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/?main=ProductDetail.aspx&ProdID=5360013010

--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 18:06:45 +0100, Tosspot wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

Yes yes, the sickness continues. However, anyone use one? Any
recommendations. And no, the Swiss DT one is *FAR* too expensive?

Hi

I've never used one but I wonder if it is necessary?

I've found personally that with today's extremely strong rims that simply
doing the spokes up as tight as you can get them and still be able to true
the rim works fine for me.

I'm not a professional wheel builder at all so I am only writing from my own
experience as an amateur 🙂

--
Patrick
My bikes: Moulton AM7 and two Moulton APBs, an R18 and a "mongrel"
Pic of R18: <http://patrickjames.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/R18.jpg>

Patrick James said:

I've never used one but I wonder if it is necessary?

I've found personally that with today's extremely strong rims that
simply doing the spokes up as tight as you can get them and still be
able to true the rim works fine for me.

I don't think today's rims are any better at dealing with high spoke tension
than rims that were popular 10 and 20 years ago. Plenty of them can be
ruined by like that with today's spokes and nipples, especially if you lube
the threads and use a good spoke key. I've done it myself. Dangers are
deformation and cracking around the spoke holes -- especially, but not only,
with single-eyelet rims.

It would be interesting to find out what the rim manufacturers' recommended
limits actually feel like. Apart from that though, I don feel the need for
a tensiometer. It's easy enough to get the tension even enough without one.

~PB

On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:51:04 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

I don't think today's rims are any better at dealing with high spoke tension
than rims that were popular 10 and 20 years ago.

You are probably right about this. In fact I am writing from personal
experience and I have built wheels in two parts of my life, 20 years ago and
in the last couple of years. I was just too busy in between for building
wheels 🙂

However I think it is very likely that the rims I was using 20 years ago were
really cheap ones whereas the rims I use today are pretty good quality.

With respect to the original poster if the desire is to build standard wheels
then I don't think the tension meter is necessary as you do sort of know when
you've gone as tight as need be.

--
Patrick
My bikes: Moulton AM7 and two Moulton APBs - an R18 and a "mongrel"
Pic of R18: <http://patrickjames.mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/R18.jpg>

patrick j said:

On Sat, 2 Sep 2006 21:51:04 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote
(in article <[email hidden]>😉:

Quoted message said:

I don't think today's rims are any better at dealing with high spoke
tension than rims that were popular 10 and 20 years ago.

You are probably right about this. In fact I am writing from personal
experience and I have built wheels in two parts of my life, 20 years
ago and in the last couple of years. I was just too busy in between
for building wheels 🙂

However I think it is very likely that the rims I was using 20 years
ago were really cheap ones whereas the rims I use today are pretty
good quality.

With respect to the original poster if the desire is to build
standard wheels then I don't think the tension meter is necessary as
you do sort of know when you've gone as tight as need be.

20 Years ago there where a lot of U section rims. These couldn't take a lot
of tension before starting to taco, but you could then take some tension out
and they would be OK.

Nowadays there are rims with a good stiff box section but no ( or only
single eyelets). They can take lots of tension without tacoing but soon fail
from cracking around the eyelets if you put in as much tension as feels
right when you build them.

With these sort of rims a tension meter would be handy as you can't really
judge by feel.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this:
Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDemon.com<<<<<<------
Unlimited Access, Anonymous Accounts, Uncensored Broadband Access

Pete Biggs said:

Patrick James said:

I've never used one but I wonder if it is necessary?

I've found personally that with today's extremely strong rims that
simply doing the spokes up as tight as you can get them and still be
able to true the rim works fine for me.

I don't think today's rims are any better at dealing with high spoke tension
than rims that were popular 10 and 20 years ago. Plenty of them can be
ruined by like that with today's spokes and nipples, especially if you lube
the threads and use a good spoke key. I've done it myself. Dangers are
deformation and cracking around the spoke holes -- especially, but not only,
with single-eyelet rims.

It would be interesting to find out what the rim manufacturers' recommended
limits actually feel like. Apart from that though, I don feel the need for
a tensiometer. It's easy enough to get the tension even enough without one.

I quite agree, a pencil on the spokes while spinning the wheel works for
me. However, *if* you had to get them at a correct tension, any
suggestions?

Tosspot said:

Pete Biggs said:

Patrick James wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've never used one but I wonder if it is necessary?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It would be interesting to find out what the rim manufacturers' recommended
limits actually feel like. Apart from that though, I don't feel the need for
a tensiometer. It's easy enough to get the tension even enough without one.

I quite agree, a pencil on the spokes while spinning the wheel works for
me. However, *if* you had to get them at a correct tension, any
suggestions?

The ping test is the only way I can think of. Reference with another
wheel to get a note and tune away. It helps if you have a good ear.
I've built a few pairs of wheels in my time and I got the rough level
tension from a pair I had built by Harry Rowlands.
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Tosspot said:

I quite agree, a pencil on the spokes while spinning the wheel works for
me. However, *if* you had to get them at a correct tension, any
suggestions?

parktool? cheapest around but not cheap
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

AndyMorris said:

before starting to taco

I think the verb you are after is "to pringle" - "to taco" sounds like
an American usage. ;-)

d.

M-gineering said:

Tosspot said:

I quite agree, a pencil on the spokes while spinning the wheel works
for me. However, *if* you had to get them at a correct tension, any
suggestions?

parktool? cheapest around but not cheap

Reluctantly[1] I'm coming down on this as well. The WheelSmith seems to
work on the same method, but the Park is available at 50 squids from wiggle.

<sigh> I guess the Park it is.

[1] I have a *thing* about buying American products.

Phil Cook said:

Tosspot said:

Pete Biggs said:

Patrick James wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>I've never used one but I wonder if it is necessary?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It would be interesting to find out what the rim manufacturers' recommended
limits actually feel like. Apart from that though, I don't feel the need for
a tensiometer. It's easy enough to get the tension even enough without one.

I quite agree, a pencil on the spokes while spinning the wheel works for
me. However, *if* you had to get them at a correct tension, any
suggestions?

The ping test is the only way I can think of. Reference with another
wheel to get a note and tune away. It helps if you have a good ear.

You're talking to a bloke that can barely tell ABBA from Queen 🙁

Quoted message said:

I've built a few pairs of wheels in my time and I got the rough level
tension from a pair I had built by Harry Rowlands.

Tosspot said:

Phil Cook wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The ping test is the only way I can think of. Reference with another
wheel to get a note and tune away. It helps if you have a good ear.

You're talking to a bloke that can barely tell ABBA from Queen 🙁

What about a guitar tuner ? Self-contained electronic ones are
fairly cheap, and there seem to be several free downloads of
software that uses a PC with a microphone to achieve the same effect.

Don't know what note you need, but if someone here's got a tensiometer
(or well-calibrated fingers) they might be able to help.

-adrian

In article <[email hidden]>

Adrian Godwin said:

Tosspot said:

Phil Cook wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The ping test is the only way I can think of. Reference with another
wheel to get a note and tune away. It helps if you have a good ear.

You're talking to a bloke that can barely tell ABBA from Queen 🙁

What about a guitar tuner ? Self-contained electronic ones are
fairly cheap, and there seem to be several free downloads of
software that uses a PC with a microphone to achieve the same effect.

Don't know what note you need, but if someone here's got a tensiometer
(or well-calibrated fingers) they might be able to help.

There isn't one specific pitch - it will vary with spoke length and
gauge, lacing pattern, dish ...

Patrick Lamb wrote on 07/09/2006 03:22 +0100:

Quoted message said:

I've cracked two hubs in the last year or two that were overtensioned.
The tensionmeter helps find the balance between too loose and too
tight. Probably not the only way to do it, the pitch method works well
if all the spokes are evenly tensioned, but it's a useful instrument.

I've built quite a few wheels, including tandem wheels, over the years
and never had a problem using the Jobst Brandt taco or as tight as you
can rule for tensioning. If you've had hubs crack under tension then I
suspect they were either poor quality or faulty because they should have
plenty of margin on spoke tension.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Tony Raven said:

I've built quite a few wheels, including tandem wheels, over the years
and never had a problem using the Jobst Brandt taco or as tight as you
can rule for tensioning. If you've had hubs crack under tension then I
suspect they were either poor quality or faulty because they should have
plenty of margin on spoke tension.

Jobst's method is perfect if the hub and/or rim can take the tension.
If you use it with, for example, a Mavic MA3 the rim will begin to
crack within a few hundred kilometres. Jobst's favoured MA2, if you can
still find one, will not have the same problem.

--
Dave...

Rob Morley said:

There isn't one specific pitch - it will vary with spoke length and
gauge, lacing pattern, dish ...

Sheldon says that in the days before he got hold of a tensiometer he
would generally tune the spokes to F#.

--
Dave...

Rob Morley said:

Adrian Godwin <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't know what note you need, but if someone here's got a tensiometer
(or well-calibrated fingers) they might be able to help.

There isn't one specific pitch - it will vary with spoke length and
gauge, lacing pattern, dish ...

True, but the same problem occurs if comparing with a well-trued wheel
on another bike. It's useful for improving repeatability, gauging how
far to turn a nipple, comparing with last time you did the job. But
not, perhaps, for setting an absolute standard (which is really the
hardest part - most people can tell if one 'ping' sounds higher or
lower than the remainder).

So, how do the experts do it (assuming you haven't got a tensiometer) ?
Do you base your gut feel on tone, key tension, spoke movement, or what ?

-adrian

Adrian Godwin said:

Rob Morley said:

Adrian Godwin <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Don't know what note you need, but if someone here's got a tensiometer
(or well-calibrated fingers) they might be able to help.

There isn't one specific pitch - it will vary with spoke length and
gauge, lacing pattern, dish ...

True, but the same problem occurs if comparing with a well-trued wheel
on another bike. It's useful for improving repeatability, gauging how
far to turn a nipple, comparing with last time you did the job. But
not, perhaps, for setting an absolute standard (which is really the
hardest part - most people can tell if one 'ping' sounds higher or
lower than the remainder).

So, how do the experts do it (assuming you haven't got a tensiometer) ?
Do you base your gut feel on tone, key tension, spoke movement, or what ?

-adrian

Check the wheel fits between the brake blocks!

In article <[email hidden]>

dkahn400 said:

Rob Morley said:

There isn't one specific pitch - it will vary with spoke length and
gauge, lacing pattern, dish ...

Sheldon says that in the days before he got hold of a tensiometer he
would generally tune the spokes to F#.

Which maybe works for 14 gauge 3-cross non-drive-side with a small
flange hub and a shallow 700c rim. Or maybe he had his tongue firmly
planted in his cheek when he wrote that.