Spoke Tensiometer questions

V Copelan said:

After years of wheel building without a spoke tensiometer, I'm considering buying one. I've been
looking at three different spoke tensiometers. The Park tool at under $50, the Wheelsmith tool at
around $120, and the DT Proline dial tensiometer at $250. I've read the critical comments about
the Park tool from Jobst Brandt. The Wheelsmith and Park tool appear similar. Which tool should I
consider?

If you do this much, the Wheelsmith tensiometer is the easiest and quickest to use. It isn't easily
readable and convertible but it is accurate and fast (handy). It was invented by Norm Ogle who was
a great talent in such things. The simplicity and durability of the instrument should receive
design awards.

That said, it was too bad that its measurement includes the spoke thickness, but then I can't
suggest a way of getting past that with the design at hand.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] Writes:

Quoted message said:

If you do this much, the Wheelsmith tensiometer is the easiest and quickest to use. It isn't easily
readable and convertible but it is accurate and fast (handy). It was invented by Norm Ogle who was
a great talent in such things. The simplicity and durability of the instrument should receive
design awards.

Thanks for the reply. I'd really like to buy the DT Proline tensiometer. It's just the price tag
that's slowing me down.

(VCopelan) said:

After years of wheel building without a spoke tensiometer, I'm considering buying one. I've been
looking at three different spoke tensiometers. The Park tool at under $50, the Wheelsmith tool at
around $120, and the DT Proline dial tensiometer at $250. I've read the critical comments about
the Park tool from Jobst Brandt. The Wheelsmith and Park tool appear similiar. Which tool should I
consider?

I have the Wheelsmith tool, and zero it out on a free spoke from the set I am going to use in the
wheel (I don't know if this is actually helpful, BTW). As Jobst says, it's quick. However, I really
just use it to set and check the tension of one spoke and compare the rest of the spokes to that one
by plucking and listening to the pitch of the spoke. Much faster than applying the tool to each
spoke. Every pass around the wheel, I recheck the tension of the "master" spoke (which is next to
the valve hole to keep track of it easily).

VCopelan-<< After years of wheel building without a spoke tensiometer, I'm considering buying one.
I've been looking at three different spoke tensiometers. The Park tool at under $50, the Wheelsmith
tool at around $120, and the DT Proline dial tensiometer at $250. >><BR><BR>

After using the Wheelsmith one for years, I got the DT one and it is a 'Porsche' of
tensionometers(the Wheelsmith one being a Toyota). Feels ohh so nice in the hand, easy to use/read,
really a nice piece of gear. If ya build a lot of wheels, and can afford it, get the DT one.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

After using the Wheelsmith one for years, I got the DT one and it is a 'Porsche' of
tensionometers(the Wheelsmith one being a Toyota). Feels ohh so nice in the hand, easy to
use/read, really a nice piece of gear. If ya build a lot of wheels, and can afford it, get
the DT one.

So using the above analogy, the DT spoke tensiometer is overpriced, not as reliable as it should be,
outrageously expensive to maintain, and purchased mainly for status value, while the Wheelsmith
spoke tensiometer is fairly priced, about as reliable as reasonably possible, of average expense to
maintain, and purchased by people who appreciate its value.

For what it is worth, Porsche was headed towards bankruptcy a few years back, but was saved by
changes suggested by a consulting firm formed of retired Toyota executives.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

After using the Wheelsmith one for years, I got the DT one and it is a 'Porsche' of
tensionometers(the Wheelsmith one being a Toyota). Feels ohh so nice in the hand, easy to
use/read, really a nice piece of gear. If ya build a lot of wheels, and can afford it, get the
DT one.

Quoted message said:

So using the above analogy, the DT spoke tensiometer is overpriced, not as reliable as it should
be, outrageously expensive to maintain, and purchased mainly for status value, while the
Wheelsmith spoke tensiometer is fairly priced, about as reliable as reasonably possible, of
average expense to maintain, and purchased by people who appreciate its value.

Quoted message said:

For what it is worth, Porsche was headed towards bankruptcy a few years back, but was saved by
changes suggested by a consulting firm formed of retired Toyota executives.

That's a lot of myth and lore. The company was saved by actions by Ferdinand Piech, grandson of
Ferdiand Porsche and CEO of VW-Audi, who was instrumental in getting Wendelin Wiedeking to take over
the company:

automobile.karrierefuehrer.deboxenstopp porsche wiedeking.shtmlOpen ↗
businessweek.comb3560016.htmOpen ↗

Piech was the man who developed the Porsche 917 and later the fastest, most powerful car on the
production GT market with 1003hp and 400km/h, the Bugatti Veyron:

members.fortunecity.combugatti 01.htmOpen ↗ car-car-Open ↗
data.com/xpage.preview/pre.template.asp?mfg=bugatti&model=veyron

Bugatti Veyron 16/4
-----------------------------
Year: 2001 Power: 1001 HP Cylinders: 16 Displacement: 7993 ccm Top speed: 406 km/h -62 mph: 3.2 sec.
Gears: 7 Price: EUR 750,000

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman said:

Quoted message said:

After using the Wheelsmith one for years, I got the DT one and it is a 'Porsche' of
tensionometers(the Wheelsmith one being a Toyota). Feels ohh so nice in the hand, easy to
use/read, really a nice piece of gear. If ya build a lot of wheels, and can afford it, get the
DT one.

Quoted message said:

So using the above analogy, the DT spoke tensiometer is overpriced, not as reliable as it should
be, outrageously expensive to maintain, and purchased mainly for status value, while the
Wheelsmith spoke tensiometer is fairly priced, about as reliable as reasonably possible, of
average expense to maintain, and purchased by people who appreciate its value.

Quoted message said:

For what it is worth, Porsche was headed towards bankruptcy a few years back, but was saved by
changes suggested by a consulting firm formed of retired Toyota executives.

That's a lot of myth and lore....

That maybe so, but it is not what the automotive press reported at the time.

Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Sherman writes:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Piech was the man who developed the Porsche 917 and later the fastest, most powerful car on the
production GT market with

1003hp

Quoted message said:

and 400km/h, the Bugatti Veyron:

members.fortunecity.combugatti 01.htmOpen ↗

car-data.compre.template.aspOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Bugatti Veyron 16/4
-----------------------------
Year: 2001 Power: 1001 HP Cylinders: 16 Displacement: 7993 ccm Top speed: 406 km/h -62 mph: 3.2
sec. Gears: 7 Price: EUR 750,000

Very nice, but where do you put the roof rack? -- Jay Beattie.

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Piech was the man who developed the Porsche 917 and later the fastest, most powerful car on the
production GT market with 1003hp and 400km/h, the Bugatti Veyron:

members.fortunecity.combugatti 01.htmOpen ↗ car-car-Open ↗
data.com/xpage.preview/pre.template.asp?mfg=bugatti&model=veyron

Bugatti Veyron 16/4
-----------------------------
Year: 2001 Power: 1001 HP Cylinders: 16 Displacement: 7993 ccm Top speed: 406 km/h -62 mph: 3.2
sec. Gears: 7 Price: EUR 750,000

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Dear Jobst,

How nice to see someone who's not fascinated by image![1]

This sensible little commuter car looks infinitely more practical than the posturing, useless SUV's
that seem to haunt your nightmares.[2]

A thousand-and-one horsepower sounds like just the thing for sitting in rush-hour traffic!

Carl Fogel

P.S. I want one, too.

[1]"The machismo of shifting gears has lost favor in most civilized places. It has nothing to do
with usefulness or economy. Today, most large SUV's and long haul trucks (you know "18-wheelers"😉
are automatic, as are of course, formula race cars. That these drivers use automatics has muted
the common axiom that automatics are for women (who can't master the mechanics), the common
explanation when the subject of sporty driving (a man's thing) arises. Heel-and-toe, double
clutching and all that gratuitous hand-and foot-work of the initiated. Give me a break. I am
amazed how many men cannot get over these juvenile ideas about manliness." --Jobst Brandt

[2]"It's like the black SUV with black windows. It's the IN thing." --Jobst Brandt

"The SUV folks can defend the superiority of their vehicles with the same rhetoric we see here
defending fashionable bicycles and their equipment." --Jobst Brandt

"Currently black is beautiful, be that rims, tires, or SUV's (with blackened windows." --
Jobst Brandt

"The reason for using these frame materials IS to get lighter and lighter... and more expensive to
increase boasting rights. It runs parallel to the larger and larger SUV with black everything offset
by chrome." --Jobst Brandt

"Forget it and just get a bigger (black) SUV with blackened windows, jacked up chassis, rumble
pipes, and spotlights." --Jobst Brandt

"The point is that driving truck is IN, and how SUV's are designed is much like any fashion item, it
can be as frivolous as hell, and not make any difference." --Jobst Brandt

"Because you are considering a vehicle where image is all and gimmicks are the routine. If I took
these vehicles as a model, I would have six inch diameter chrome exhaust pipes on my car. They must
be good, I saw them on a Jimmy!" --Jobst Brandt

"You probably drive an SUV with chromed jungle grills over the front with bumper bars to help you
get to the real rough stuff to ride bike." --Jobst Brandt

"Around here there are huge traffic jams of SUV's at schools." --Jobst Brandt

"Many of them seem to believe the sales pitch that are common on TV and radio for BMW and MB cars
and play the role of snobs admirably. The whole "drive truck" craze is a poor symbol of our society.
Image is everything, substance nothing for these folks." --Jobst Brandt

"These people are the ones most susceptible to advertising for things they don't need but buy
anyway, convinced they will enhance their stature, be that a monster SUV or a car with pseudo
aerodynamic appendages." --Jobst Brandt

"By the way, this is the excuse given for all the SUV's with knobby tires and 4WD we see in the
shopping malls and among other things, buzzing bicyclists on the road." --Jobst Brandt

"Hey, you're catching on. The jacked up monster truck with oversized tires was once in the domain of
the macho guys that put padding in their jock strap or tape a salami onto their leg. Today, the
closet admirers of thes vehicles have come out of the closet and join the bunch, now that you can
buy them off the shelf, with darkened windows if you want. "Git outta mah way, peon! Ah've go a big
tough Jimmy!" if you haven't noticed."

"Posturing is IN! No need for substance, when appearances are taken in lieu of." --Jobst Brandt

"Many ride MTB's for the same reason they drive truck. SUV for you and me! "Me and my Jimmy can go
anywhere." I'm tough! What??? You don't drive truck? Who do you think you are anyway? Besides, my
truck is diesel and has duals and a long cab and a Knaak toolbox. You ought to hear it rumble. Even
the tires make more noise than a motorcycle. My truck is so tall I have a step ladder for
passengers and the bumper is higher than a Miyata's roof. Me and Arnold Schw. understand big cars."
--Jobst Brandt

Carl Fogel said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For what it is worth, Porsche was headed towards bankruptcy a few years back, but was saved by
changes suggested by a consulting firm formed of retired Toyota executives.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's a lot of myth and lore. The company was saved by actions by Ferdinand Piech, grandson of
Ferdiand Porsche and CEO of VW-Audi, who was instrumental in getting Wendelin Wiedeking to take
over the company:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Piech was the man who developed the Porsche 917 and later the fastest, most powerful car on the
production GT market with 1003hp and 400km/h, the Bugatti Veyron:

members.fortunecity.combugatti 01.htmOpen ↗ car-car-Open ↗
data.com/xpage.preview/pre.template.asp?mfg=bugatti&model=veyron

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bugatti Veyron 16/4
-----------------------------
Year: 2001 Power: 1001 HP Cylinders: 16 Displacement: 7993 ccm Top speed: 406 km/h -62 mph: 3.2
sec. Gears: 7 Price: EUR 750,000

Quoted message said:

How nice to see someone who's not fascinated by image![1]

The whole Porsche business thrives mostly on an image based on its history in competition with high
performance cars. Some people like to own such vehicles, the point here is that the company was not
a fabrication of Toyota but rather one man's business and technical acumen. Under Piech, VW-Audi
came from the Golf/Rabbit to a leading auto maker competing in all catagories from Polo to Audi to
Bently and Bugatti.

Whether you want to own an expensive two seaters or not is yor prerogative. I can do wothout it.
However, I found working at Porsche, designing a formula-1 car, challenging and educational for my
engineering carreer. I learned a lot and had the pleasure of working with talented people. Our car,
Driven by Dan Gurney, won a GP before
Mr. Porsche decided the sport was too expensive for the small company.

gpracing.net192.com496.cfmOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

This sensible little commuter car looks infinitely more practical than the posturing, useless
SUV's that seem to haunt your nightmares.[2]

Quoted message said:

A thousand-and-one horsepower sounds like just the thing for sitting in rush-hour traffic!

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

P.S. I want one, too.

So having done such a great research on the web, I see you found no inconsistencies in my
appraisal of truck owners. What does this have to do with Toyota advising Porsche on how to run
their business?

Quoted message said:

[1]"The machismo of shifting gears has lost favor in most civilized places. It has nothing to do
with usefulness or economy. Today, most large SUV's and long haul trucks (you know "18-
wheelers"😉 are automatic, as are of course, formula race cars. That these drivers use
automatics has muted the common axiom that automatics are for women (who can't master the
mechanics), the common explanation when the subject of sporty driving (a man's thing) arises.
Heel-and-toe, double clutching and all that gratuitous hand-and foot-work of the initiated.
Give me a break. I am amazed how many men cannot get over these juvenile ideas about
manliness." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

[2]"It's like the black SUV with black windows. It's the IN thing." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"The SUV folks can defend the superiority of their vehicles with the same rhetoric we see here
defending fashionable bicycles and their equipment." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"Currently black is beautiful, be that rims, tires, or SUV's (with blackened windows." --
Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"The reason for using these frame materials IS to get lighter and lighter... and more expensive to
increase boasting rights. It runs parallel to the larger and larger SUV with black everything
offset by chrome." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"Forget it and just get a bigger (black) SUV with blackened windows, jacked up chassis, rumble
pipes, and spotlights." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"The point is that driving truck is IN, and how SUV's are designed is much like any fashion item,
it can be as frivolous as hell, and not make any difference." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"Because you are considering a vehicle where image is all and gimmicks are the routine. If I took
these vehicles as a model, I would have six inch diameter chrome exhaust pipes on my car. They
must be good, I saw them on a Jimmy!" --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"You probably drive an SUV with chromed jungle grills over the front with bumper bars to help you
get to the real rough stuff to ride bike." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"Around here there are huge traffic jams of SUV's at schools." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"Many of them seem to believe the sales pitch that are common on TV and radio for BMW and MB cars
and play the role of snobs admirably. The whole "drive truck" craze is a poor symbol of our
society. Image is everything, substance nothing for these folks." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"These people are the ones most susceptible to advertising for things they don't need but buy
anyway, convinced they will enhance their stature, be that a monster SUV or a car with pseudo
aerodynamic appendages." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"By the way, this is the excuse given for all the SUV's with knobby tires and 4WD we see in the
shopping malls and among other things, buzzing bicyclists on the road." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"Hey, you're catching on. The jacked up monster truck with oversized tires was once in the domain
of the macho guys that put padding in their jock strap or tape a salami onto their leg. Today, the
closet admirers of thes vehicles have come out of the closet and join the bunch, now that you can
buy them off the shelf, with darkened windows if you want. "Git outta mah way, peon! Ah've go a
big tough Jimmy!" if you haven't noticed."

Quoted message said:

"Posturing is IN! No need for substance, when appearances are taken in lieu of." --Jobst Brandt

Quoted message said:

"Many ride MTB's for the same reason they drive truck. SUV for you and me! "Me and my Jimmy can go
anywhere." I'm tough! What??? You don't drive truck? Who do you think you are anyway? Besides, my
truck is diesel and has duals and a long cab and a Knaak toolbox. You ought to hear it rumble.
Even the tires make more noise than a motorcycle. My truck is so tall I have a step ladder for
passengers and the bumper is higher than a Miyata's roof. Me and Arnold Schw. understand big
cars." --Jobst Brandt

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

"Jay Beattie" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Piech was the man who developed the Porsche 917 and later the fastest, most powerful car on the
production GT market with 1003hp and 400km/h, the Bugatti Veyron:

Quoted message said:

Very nice, but where do you put the roof rack? -- Jay Beattie.

If you look closely you will see there is a convenient luggage rack behind the rear window.

--
Dave...

[email hidden] wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

[snip]

Quoted message said:

What does this have to do with Toyota advising Porsche on how to run their business?

Dear Jobst,

Gosh, I thought I saw a fellow drooling at the sight of a thousand-and-one horsepower sports car and
wondered what it had to do with Toyota advising Porsche how to run their business.

Usually, he's ranting in rec.bicycles.tech about how silly some kind of overpowered, overpriced cars
are. He calls them SUV's and Jimmys.

Sorry--he really looked like you.

Carl Fogel

You've been building wheels for years. Why bother with a tensiometer? Absolute tension is not important-
eveness of tension around the wheel IS important. If you measured the same wheel with 3 different
tensiometers, you'll get 3 very different measures. So which one is right? In practice, it doesn't
matter. What they are good for is draining your wallet and for novice builders who don;t have any
"feel" yet. It might help keep them out of trouble, but I doubt it. In 20 yrs of wheelbuilding, I
have never once seen an amateur wheel I would ride on. Hell, I wouldn't have ridden MY first 20
wheels or so... So I suggest that you lace up, tension up. Keep as true and round as possible as you
tension up, lube the nipple-rim interface regularly. I use subjective feel and sound. A human ear
can hear far more subtle differences than the hand can feel. When they all feel the same, sound the
same, I do minor tweaks and it's ready to roll. 8,000 pr later I've never had a wheel failure. I say
keep doin' what you're doin' and comfortable with and refine your touch.

(Bikefixr) said:

You've been building wheels for years. Why bother with a tensiometer? Absolute tension is not important-
eveness of tension around the wheel IS important. If you measured the same wheel with 3 different
tensiometers, you'll get 3 very different measures. So which one is right? In practice, it doesn't
matter. What they are good for is draining your wallet and for novice builders who don;t have any
"feel" yet. It might help keep them out of trouble, but I doubt it. In 20 yrs of wheelbuilding, I
have never once seen an amateur wheel I would ride on. Hell, I wouldn't have ridden MY first 20
wheels or so... So I suggest that you lace up, tension up. Keep as true and round as possible as
you tension up, lube the nipple-rim interface regularly. I use subjective feel and sound. A human
ear can hear far more subtle differences than the hand can feel. When they all feel the same,
sound the same, I do minor tweaks and it's ready to roll. 8,000 pr later I've never had a wheel
failure. I say keep doin' what you're doin' and comfortable with and refine your touch.

Sixteen thousand wheels and you don't stress relieve? Don't you get complaints about broken spokes?

--
Ted Bennett Portland OR

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by VCopelan
After years of wheel building without a spoke tensiometer, I'm considering buying one. I've been
looking at three different spoke tensiometers. The Park tool at under $50, the Wheelsmith tool at
around $120, and the DT Proline dial tensiometer at $250. I've read the critical comments about
the Park tool from Jobst Brandt. The Wheelsmith and Park tool appear similiar. Which tool should
I consider?

I have the Park tensionometer. I almost got the Wheelsmith brand, but tried the Park and it works great. I couldn't really justify spending more on the Wheelsmith one, when the Park does the same thing at half the cost.

I'm kinda in agreement with the other guy. You'll find that you really only use it for a few spokes to make sure that they are up to the tension you are aiming for. The rest of the spokes you just want to be sure that they are evenly tensioned. You don't really need it, but I like mine because I am certain that I am in the range, tensionwise, that I set out to be in when I build the wheels.

Quoted message said:

(Bikefixr) said:

You've been building wheels for years. Why bother with a tensiometer? Absolute
tension is not important-eveness of tension around the wheel IS important.

-snip-

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When they all feel the same, sound the same, I do minor tweaks and it's ready
to roll. 8,000 pr later I've never had a wheel failure. I say keep doin' what
you're doin' and comfortable with and refine your touch.

Ted Bennett said:

Sixteen thousand wheels and you don't stress relieve? Don't you get complaints
about broken spokes?

Before The Book, we stress-relieved effectively because the theory at the time
was that you had to pull the spokes hard to bed the curve into the hubshell -so
the mating surface was larger than a point. Either way we pulled them very tight
in pairs before final tension for ten years before reading why.

Perhaps bikfixr's "minor tweaks" involve momentarily raising spoke tension with
his hands similarly.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April, 1971

bikefixr-<< You've been building wheels for years. Why
bother with a tensiometer? Absolute tension is not important-
eveness of tension around the wheel IS important.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

Not quite. Even tension at 75% of what the tension should be
makes for a porr wheel.

bikefixr<< What they are good for is draining your wallet
and for novice builders who don;t have any "feel" yet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

I have been building wheels for 19 years and altho I can
'feel' tension pretty close, i still use a tensionometer on
every wheel I either build or true.

bikefixr<< I use subjective feel and sound.

Are your hands tired at the end of the day? Mine are, does
feel change?

A tensionometer, not expensive, particularly when used for
years, will certainly not make his wheels poorer.

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

(Bikefixr) said:

You've been building wheels for years. Why bother with a
tensiometer? Absolute tension is not important-eveness of
tension around the wheel IS important. If you measured the
same wheel with 3 different tensiometers, you'll get 3
very different measures. So which one is right?

Reminds me of the Chinese proverb: a man with a clock knows
what time it is; a man with two clocks is never sure.

Quoted message said:

In practice, it doesn't matter. What they are good for is
draining your wallet and for novice builders who don't
have any "feel" yet. It might help keep them out of
trouble, but I doubt it.

Why so cynical? It is actually helpful for beginners to
prevent gross under- or over-tensioning without having to
deform a rim in the process.

Quoted message said:

In 20 yrs of wheelbuilding, I have never once seen an
amateur wheel I would ride on.

So you wouldn't ride one of Jobst's wheels?

Quoted message said:

Hell, I wouldn't have ridden MY first 20 wheels or so...

Presumably somebody did.

Quoted message said:

So I suggest that you lace up, tension up. Keep as true
and round as possible as you tension up, lube the nipple-
rim interface regularly. I use subjective feel and
sound. A human ear can hear far more subtle differences
than the hand can feel. When they all feel the same,
sound the same, I do minor tweaks and it's ready to
roll. 8,000 pr later I've never had a wheel failure. I
say keep doin' what you're doin' and comfortable with
and refine your touch.

While much of what you say is true- especially the
sensitivity of judging relative tension by plucking spokes
and listening to the pitch- for the average person building
a few wheels for themselves this sort of proficiency will
never develop. I've built hundreds of wheels, but I can't
tell if they're adequately tensioned just by plucking a
spoke or squeezing them. They could be significantly
undertensioned and still sound or feel OK, depending on a
number of factors (wheel size, pattern, spoke gauge, etc).

Oddly enough, you don't recommend stress relieving, probably
the single most important step you can take for ensuring
good service life of the spokes.

Tim McNamara <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(Bikefixr) said:

You've been building wheels for years. Why bother with a
tensiometer? Absolute tension is not important-eveness
of tension around the wheel IS important. If you
measured the same wheel with 3 different tensiometers,
you'll get 3 very different measures. So which one is
right?

Reminds me of the Chinese proverb: a man with a
clock knows what time it is; a man with two clocks
is never sure.

Quoted message said:

In practice, it doesn't matter. What they are good for
is draining your wallet and for novice builders who
don't have any "feel" yet. It might help keep them out
of trouble, but I doubt it.

Why so cynical? It is actually helpful for beginners to
prevent gross under- or over-tensioning without having to
deform a rim in the process.

Quoted message said:

In 20 yrs of wheelbuilding, I have never once seen an
amateur wheel I would ride on.

So you wouldn't ride one of Jobst's wheels?

Quoted message said:

Hell, I wouldn't have ridden MY first 20 wheels or so...

Presumably somebody did.

Quoted message said:

So I suggest that you lace up, tension up. Keep as true
and round as possible as you tension up, lube the nipple-
rim interface regularly. I use subjective feel and
sound. A human ear can hear far more subtle differences
than the hand can feel. When they all feel the same,
sound the same, I do minor tweaks and it's ready to
roll. 8,000 pr later I've never had a wheel failure. I
say keep doin' what you're doin' and comfortable with
and refine your touch.

While much of what you say is true- especially the
sensitivity of judging relative tension by plucking spokes
and listening to the pitch- for the average person
building a few wheels for themselves this sort of
proficiency will never develop. I've built hundreds of
wheels, but I can't tell if they're adequately tensioned
just by plucking a spoke or squeezing them. They could be
significantly undertensioned and still sound or feel OK,
depending on a number of factors (wheel size, pattern,
spoke gauge, etc).

Oddly enough, you don't recommend stress relieving,
probably the single most important step you can take for
ensuring good service life of the spokes.

Dear Tim,

It's curious how many people feel that there are some things
that man was never meant to measure with anything but the
seat of his pants, like spoke tension.

Oddly enough, the stress-relief of spokes that you call the
single most important step may be one of these sacred cows:

"The fatigue resistance of spokes was not tested for lack of
suitable equipment." ("The Bicycle Wheel," 2nd edition, Part
III, "Equations and Tests"😉

And the stress-strain graphs of the tests of actual
stainless steel spokes in that section (figure 69) don't
look at all like the stress-strain graph used to explain
elastic limits (figure 15). The curves of the actual spoke
tests just climb toward failure without any intermediate
drop at an elastic limit (which I gather is the normal
behavior of stainless steel--it shows no elastic limit).

Perhaps the third edition addressed this?

To be honest, I can't see any objective difference between
checking tension by ear (bikefixr's approach) and grabbing
spoke pairs and giving 'em a good squeeze to relieve tension
(current received wisdom on rec.bicycles.tech).

Are there any studies showing actual results for these seat-of-the-
pants approaches? That is, someone showing his ear to be as
good at measuring tension as a high-quality tensiometer, or
someone showing measurable effects from spoke-squeezing?

Either method may work. Anyone who can tune a violin can see
the idea behind spoke-plucking, and a healthy squeeze might
relieve some kind of tension in a spoke already under 200 to
500 lbs of tension.

I'm just curious if anyone has ever demonstrated that either
method works in a fashion that could be presented and
repeated in an engineering course.

Carl Fogel