Spoke quality

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on my
2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for now. So
the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality? Worthwhile to
rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace the one that
broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just drop the wheel off
at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering with bikes.

Ken

YOU CONFESS!
gendarme, secure this man's bank account.

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on my
2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for now. So
the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality? Worthwhile to
rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace the one that
broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just drop the wheel off
at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering with bikes.

Although there may be a difference in spoke material from what you have
(unknown) to premium stainless butted spokes, a larger difference is
likely to be achieved by getting uniform and proper tension on that wheel.

From here, none of us can evaluate that nor rectify it. Is there a good
LBS near you who can advise specifically? Low or uneven spoke tension
leads to spoke failure as the loads are borne by a small number of
spokes rather than being spread through them as a group.

If you're interested in this area generally, 'The Bicycle Wheel' is the
definitive work.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on
my 2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for
now. So the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality?
Worthwhile to rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace
the one that broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just
drop the wheel off at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering
with bikes.

Although there may be a difference in spoke material from what you have
(unknown) to premium stainless butted spokes, a larger difference is
likely to be achieved by getting uniform and proper tension on that wheel.

Well I am sure they are not stainless, they have uh, surface oxidation
I.E. rust forming on them, not a lot but enough to notice. They are mass
produced wheels so I am pretty sure they are not built as well as a hand
built wheel.

Quoted message said:

From here, none of us can evaluate that nor rectify it. Is there a good
LBS near you who can advise specifically? Low or uneven spoke tension
leads to spoke failure as the loads are borne by a small number of
spokes rather than being spread through them as a group.

Yeah there are a few shops around. Makes sense about uneven tensioning.

Quoted message said:

If you're interested in this area generally, 'The Bicycle Wheel' is the
definitive work.

Well it seems like I have more than a passing interest in wheels, so
thanks for the book advice.

Ken

A Muzi said:

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on
my 2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for
now. So the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality?
Worthwhile to rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace
the one that broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just
drop the wheel off at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering
with bikes.

Although there may be a difference in spoke material from what you have
(unknown) to premium stainless butted spokes, a larger difference is
likely to be achieved by getting uniform and proper tension on that wheel.

indeed. but at this stage, respoking is probably the best bet. 3 strikes.

Quoted message said:

From here, none of us can evaluate that nor rectify it. Is there a good
LBS near you who can advise specifically? Low or uneven spoke tension
leads to spoke failure as the loads are borne by a small number of
spokes rather than being spread through them as a group.

If you're interested in this area generally, 'The Bicycle Wheel' is the
definitive work.

you know, it's really not. it outlines how to calculate spoke length,
lace a wheel, how undertake "stress relief", how to repair and how to
tension - and in all those respects, it's just dandy. but when it comes
to engineering theory, it sucks - spoke tension "as high as the rim can
bear" for example.

if the former attributes are all that's required, there are a number of
alternative sources, most of which are online and free. the
downloadable mavic pdf's and sheldon's web site for example. but if the
reader has an interest in theory and doesn't already have a good grasp
of sound principles, he's likely to be led seriously astray by this book
in its current form. it contains a number of fundamental theory flaws
and needs extensive revision accordingly.

Andrew Muzi of Yellow Jersey said:

...
If you're interested in this area generally, 'The Bicycle Wheel' is the
definitive work.

Unless one consumes Kentucky Bourbon or are from Wales, where the best
wheels are built with low-tension galvanized spokes bent so they do not
touch at the crossings.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

jim beam said:

A Muzi said:

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on
my 2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for
now. So the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality?
Worthwhile to rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace
the one that broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just
drop the wheel off at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering
with bikes.

Quoted message said:

Although there may be a difference in spoke material from what you have
(unknown) to premium stainless butted spokes, a larger difference is
likely to be achieved by getting uniform and proper tension on that wheel.

indeed. but at this stage, respoking is probably the best bet. 3 strikes.

Quoted message said:

From here, none of us can evaluate that nor rectify it. Is there a good
LBS near you who can advise specifically? Low or uneven spoke tension
leads to spoke failure as the loads are borne by a small number of
spokes rather than being spread through them as a group.

Quoted message said:

If you're interested in this area generally, 'The Bicycle Wheel' is the
definitive work.

you know, it's really not. it outlines how to calculate spoke length,
lace a wheel, how undertake "stress relief", how to repair and how to
tension - and in all those respects, it's just dandy. but when it comes
to engineering theory, it sucks - spoke tension "as high as the rim can
bear" for example.

if the former attributes are all that's required, there are a number of
alternative sources, most of which are online and free. the
downloadable mavic pdf's and sheldon's web site for example. but if the
reader has an interest in theory and doesn't already have a good grasp
of sound principles, he's likely to be led seriously astray by this book
in its current form. it contains a number of fundamental theory flaws
and needs extensive revision accordingly.

JB trying to debunk JB?

I'm shocked. SHOCKED.

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on my
2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for now. So
the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality?

absolutely. d.t., sapim, wheelsmith are all much superior to cheapo oem
of bikes this quality.

Quoted message said:

Worthwhile to
rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace the one that
broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just drop the wheel off
at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering with bikes.

my experience is that very few bike shops are actually good at wheel
building or maintenance. most are abysmal in fact. [that statement
seems to offend people that are good at building their own for some
reason - strange since the criticism doesn't extend to them.] i think
you have the following options:

1. simply replace the offending spoke. but another will go in due course.
2. respoke the wheel in its entirety. that's fine, but often,
rebuilding on a used rim can be problematic - much harder for a novice
to get true.
3. build a whole new wheel and keep that one as a spare - having
undertaken option 1 of course. new components are much easier to build
with. you can find deals on hubs, spokes and rims on the web from time
to time.
4. upgrade to a quality pre-built wheel. my experience with the low end
shimano and mavic product has been excellent.

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on my
2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for now. So
the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality? Worthwhile to
rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace the one that
broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just drop the wheel off
at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering with bikes.

That bike is specced with stainless spokes. I very much doubt you have
galvanized spokes. I can virtually guarantee you that the spokes
aren't up to tension. Replace the spoke, add a 1/4 turn all round.
Spoke wrench still pretty easy to turn? Spokes don't feel especially
tight? They go pong instead of ping? Go and add another 1/4.
Scientific, I know I know--but I doubt you have a tensionometer, and
every machine built cheapie wheel I've ever dealt with has not minded
a half turn, so I feel safe with such a modest proposal.

Now destress the wheel, though it shouldn't make a huge difference
since it's been ridden. I like putting the axle on a chunk of 2x4 and
pushing on the rim hard going all the way round to seat the spokes.
True up and ride.

Definitely build a set of wheels when you have the chance. It's super
fun and easy. "The Book" is a fun and educational read, but us plebes
get by just fine with Sheldon Brown's online guide for building a 3x
set.

landotter said:

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on my
2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for now. So
the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality? Worthwhile to
rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace the one that
broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just drop the wheel off
at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering with bikes.

That bike is specced with stainless spokes. I very much doubt you have
galvanized spokes. I can virtually guarantee you that the spokes
aren't up to tension.

there's "stainless" and there's "stainless". high quality spokes are
made from vacuum degassed steels and with great attention to surface
quality. cheapo spokes are just made from basic stainless wire with no
fatigue credentials and without due regard for surface quality. the
latter you can see with a magnifier if you care to compare.

beyond that, yes, sufficient spoke tension, and even tension
distribution are important, but they simply cannot prevent spokes of
poor quality suffering fatigue.

Quoted message said:

Replace the spoke, add a 1/4 turn all round.
Spoke wrench still pretty easy to turn? Spokes don't feel especially
tight? They go pong instead of ping? Go and add another 1/4.
Scientific, I know I know--but I doubt you have a tensionometer, and
every machine built cheapie wheel I've ever dealt with has not minded
a half turn, so I feel safe with such a modest proposal.

Now destress the wheel, though it shouldn't make a huge difference
since it's been ridden. I like putting the axle on a chunk of 2x4 and
pushing on the rim hard going all the way round to seat the spokes.
True up and ride.

Definitely build a set of wheels when you have the chance. It's super
fun and easy. "The Book" is a fun and educational read, but us plebes
get by just fine with Sheldon Brown's online guide for building a 3x
set.

Quoted message said:

Andrew Muzi of Yellow Jersey said:

...
If you're interested in this area generally, 'The Bicycle Wheel' is
the definitive work.

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

Unless one consumes Kentucky Bourbon or are from Wales, where the best
wheels are built with low-tension galvanized spokes bent so they do not
touch at the crossings.

heh heh.
Those steel rimmed Raleighs with unlaced Lemet spokes made from
galvanized leftovers at least didn't notably break spokes. In steel
flanges, no less! 32x40 with an ample tire is a format which covers many
sins. Raleigh sold several millions per year under a dozen labels for,
what, 80 years? Somebody liked them it seems.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Andrew Muzi of Yellow Jersey said:

Quoted message said:

Andrew Muzi of Yellow Jersey said:

...
If you're interested in this area generally, 'The Bicycle Wheel' is
the definitive work.

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

Unless one consumes Kentucky Bourbon or are from Wales, where the best
wheels are built with low-tension galvanized spokes bent so they do
not touch at the crossings.

heh heh.

I wonder when Trevor Jeffrey will pop up again to war with Brandt?

Quoted message said:

Those steel rimmed Raleighs with unlaced Lemet spokes made from
galvanized leftovers at least didn't notably break spokes. In steel
flanges, no less! 32x40 with an ample tire is a format which covers many
sins. Raleigh sold several millions per year under a dozen labels for,
what, 80 years? Somebody liked them it seems.

Millions of commuters looking for an inexpensive and reliable way to get
to work, most likely.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

jim beam said:

landotter said:

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on my
2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for now. So
the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality? Worthwhile to
rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace the one that
broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just drop the wheel off
at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering with bikes.

Quoted message said:

That bike is specced with stainless spokes. I very much doubt you have
galvanized spokes. I can virtually guarantee you that the spokes
aren't up to tension.

there's "stainless" and there's "stainless". high quality spokes are
made from vacuum degassed steels and with great attention to surface
quality. cheapo spokes are just made from basic stainless wire with no
fatigue credentials and without due regard for surface quality. the
latter you can see with a magnifier if you care to compare.

beyond that, yes, sufficient spoke tension, and even tension
distribution are important, but they simply cannot prevent spokes of
poor quality suffering fatigue.

Sure, If it was my wheel and it broke a spoke--after being brought up
to proper tension, I'd certainly respoke with some Sapims, but often
it's the lack of tension that's the dealbreaker. Cheesy spoke + poor
tension = pdink. I've got a set of wheels built with the cheap SS
stuff in front of me. There's one DT in the mix that replaced a popped
one--you can definitely see a different luster in the steels. But
again, that wheel was seriously under tensioned, so a touch of the
wrench, and it's gone many K without complaint. I keep a couple spare
spokes in the hydration pack to keep it that way. It's like carrying
an umbrella on a sunny day. ;-)

I've heard plenty of moaning about the rim the OP uses, btw--but it
invariably seems that the problem is that it's used on lower priced
bikes, with crappily built wheels and underwhelming spokes.

datakoll aka gene daniels said:

...
generic spokes are a pain the the butt

You are supposed to sit on the saddle, not the spokes!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on my
2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for now. So
the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality? Worthwhile to
rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace the one that
broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just drop the wheel off
at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering with bikes.

Probably the spoke elbows are carrying too much residual stress.
This can be remedied.
First true the wheel and balance the spoke tension.

Remove the tires and rim tape.
Put a drop of oil on each nipple end.
Check the spokes for even tension.
* Pick a spoke next to the valve hole, calling it number 1.
* Ping number 1
* Ping number 2 and compare the pitch.
* Ping number 3 and compare the pitch with number 1.
...
Now you have an idea of tension balance.
Loosen all spokes by a turn or two.
Check radial trueness.
Try to get radial trueness.
Now start truing the wheel, keeping radial trueness.
Check tension balance.
This is a balancing act of keeping the wheel true and tension balanced.
Eventually the spokes will be tight and evenly balanced.
Now stress relieve the spokes.
Best to consult a good reference for this procedure.
Now check for trueness in the wheel again.
Go ride with a mind at rest.

--
Michael Press

In article <[email hidden]>,

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

datakoll aka gene daniels said:

...
generic spokes are a pain the the butt

You are supposed to sit on the saddle, not the spokes!

Huh. Who knew?

yeah. I whine about teflon wax from Finish Line on the hub's spoke
holes covering/sealing both flange side's spoke holes and spoke heads:
lubes the twisting spoke and seals the joint to dirt entry.

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Just A User said:

I know this has probably been covered her before, but here it is again.
This morning while out on a moderate intensity ride I heard a familiar
/ping/ noise that I recognized as a spoke breaking. This is the third
spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a lot, but more
than I would like. The wheels are inexpensive Alex R500, that came on my
2005 Fuji Ace. The bike isn't great, but good enough for me for now. So
the question is are /aftermarket/ spokes higher quality? Worthwhile to
rebuild the wheels with better spokes or just replace the one that
broke? Should I learn to replace them myself? Or just drop the wheel off
at the LBS and have them do it? I enjoy tinkering with bikes.

Probably the spoke elbows are carrying too much residual stress.
This can be remedied.

"remedy" for residual stress does not remedy alloy quality or surface
finish quality - both ranking much higher up the actual cause list. but
recognition of real world fatigue causation doesn't offer as much scope
for insertion of fear of the unknown and subsequent heroic mitigation.

Quoted message said:

First true the wheel and balance the spoke tension.

Remove the tires and rim tape.
Put a drop of oil on each nipple end.
Check the spokes for even tension.
* Pick a spoke next to the valve hole, calling it number 1.
* Ping number 1
* Ping number 2 and compare the pitch.
* Ping number 3 and compare the pitch with number 1.
...
Now you have an idea of tension balance.
Loosen all spokes by a turn or two.
Check radial trueness.
Try to get radial trueness.
Now start truing the wheel, keeping radial trueness.
Check tension balance.
This is a balancing act of keeping the wheel true and tension balanced.
Eventually the spokes will be tight and evenly balanced.
Now stress relieve the spokes.
Best to consult a good reference for this procedure.
Now check for trueness in the wheel again.
Go ride with a mind at rest.

"stress relief" builds a wheel where spokes do not lose tension in use
and which therefore stay truer longer. end of story. next thing we'll
see is someone lay claim to invention this long established build
practice, even though it predates their birth. oh, wait....

Quoted message said:

This is the third spoke I have broken in 2 years. Not what I would call a
lot, but more than I would like.

Sheldon says:

"In fact, if you have an old wheel that has been breaking left side spokes,
"half rebuilding" the wheel into a half radial will solve the problem once
and for all."

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html#half-radial

Mike Lackey
Madison, AL

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

I wonder when Trevor Jeffrey will pop up again to war with Brandt?

Please.one nutjob at a time.

Spike