Spoke line correction

On Feb 20, 11:16 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Try signing out of your google groups posting account
and repeating the search in case there's some kind of
persistent cookie.

Tried it on my wife's computer without even signing in... same deal.
Tried Firefox instead of Opera... same thing.

Quoted message said:

Try clicking on the "View profile" link on one of your
posts and looking at the bottom where it lets you click
on posts from a given month.

Tried that too. It says I have a lot of posts in Dec and Jan, but if I
click on Dec it says there aren't any. If I click on Jan it will only
show the ones after the 25th.

Searching other google groups shows the same Oct 15-Jan 25 hole. I
wouldn't think it was weird if it was happening to everybody else...
but why just me? And Rod Serling makes his entrance...

I don't suppose there is anyone at google I could ask?

On 20 Feb 2007 23:16:34 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Feb 20, 11:16 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Try signing out of your google groups posting account
and repeating the search in case there's some kind of
persistent cookie.

Tried it on my wife's computer without even signing in... same deal.
Tried Firefox instead of Opera... same thing.

Quoted message said:

Try clicking on the "View profile" link on one of your
posts and looking at the bottom where it lets you click
on posts from a given month.

Tried that too. It says I have a lot of posts in Dec and Jan, but if I
click on Dec it says there aren't any. If I click on Jan it will only
show the ones after the 25th.

Searching other google groups shows the same Oct 15-Jan 25 hole. I
wouldn't think it was weird if it was happening to everybody else...
but why just me? And Rod Serling makes his entrance...

I don't suppose there is anyone at google I could ask?

Dear Ron,

Here's one well-hidden contact/help-me page:

http://groups.google.com/support/bin/request.py

You can try asking them why you can't see RBT posts that other posters
can see for a specific date range.

I don't know whether you should call it a technical problem or insist
that you're being abused. 🙂

When I click on your profile, your month-by-month posting totals show
up, 1 in Oct, none in Nov, 69 in December, 61 in January. Clicking on
December's 69 posts brings them up with no problem.

What's really weird is that whatever's wrong also affects your wife's
computer. That would seem to eliminate a lot of possible problems.

Do both systems use the same browser?

Maybe you used both systems the same day and have the same weird
cookie or configuration file on both systems?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Feb 20, 9:43 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Steel is steel, regardless of what brand, so there can't be any
difference other than wire diameter. They all have the same elastic
modulus.

Having built with Sapim for many years then with the opportunity to
build a wheel with DT I did notice a different 'feel'. The DT's did
seem more elastic. I don't understand how you say they could be the
same elastic modulus, would different alloying elements make for
different characteristics?

Were the Sapim and DT spokes the same gauge and buttedness?

Quoted message said:

I've since found the previous lengthy threads on the stress related
discussions so would not want to start another. I've spent most of the
evening reading through them. Good stuff!

I've just sourced another cheap Shimano hub from ebay because I want
to explore the spoke line correction a little more. I'll manually
correct by thumb some spokes and leave the rest un modified then build
up as normal then disassemble to examine the resulting bend angles to
see if they are identical and so negate the additional operation of
manually bending which as you said needs doing carefully.

Let us know what you find. I built a wheel recently with a Shimano hub
(Deore XT) and DT spokes, and the spoke line didn't seem to need
correcting. Before I'd put much tension into the spokes, they seemed to
be sitting just about right anyway, so I left them alone. Of course they
may have bent a bit, but the line wasn't obviously wrong and there
wasn't the temptation to manually correct it.

On 20 Feb 2007 23:16:34 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Feb 20, 11:16 pm, "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Try signing out of your google groups posting account
and repeating the search in case there's some kind of
persistent cookie.

Tried it on my wife's computer without even signing in... same deal.
Tried Firefox instead of Opera... same thing.

Quoted message said:

Try clicking on the "View profile" link on one of your
posts and looking at the bottom where it lets you click
on posts from a given month.

Tried that too. It says I have a lot of posts in Dec and Jan, but if I
click on Dec it says there aren't any. If I click on Jan it will only
show the ones after the 25th.

Searching other google groups shows the same Oct 15-Jan 25 hole. I
wouldn't think it was weird if it was happening to everybody else...
but why just me? And Rod Serling makes his entrance...

I don't suppose there is anyone at google I could ask?

Dear Ron,

Maybe there's something goofy in your Google account's new
search-history function?

http://www.google.com/support/accounts/bin/topic.py?topic=10470&hl=en

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Ron Ruff said:

A little more on topic, I just received some CX-Rays today, and was
surprised at the elbow shape. It's long compared to the 2.0mm
Wheelsmith and DT spokes that I have (not a lot but noticable), and
closer to 90 degrees as well. Consequently the spoke hangs out farther
from the hub flange (Dura Ace 7700 and Ultegra 6500). I would have
gotten spoke washers if I'd known. The WS AE15s (1.8mm ends) have a
short "J", and the inside of the bend hugs the flange quite well...
seems like the best fit of them all.

I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day but
haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the Lasers
too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they don't look good to
me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith spokes with Deore LX
hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and see what I think
then...

Quoted message said:

On 20 Feb 2007 19:29:05 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Before this post, I got 184 results, with several in early January, in
December, and in November on the first two pages:

Thanks for helping... but I get 157 posts and nothing from Oct 3 to
Jan 26.

Dear Ron,

I'm utterly baffled.

I even tried strict filtering in my Google profile's preferences, but
ignoring X-rated posts only reduced the hits from 184 to 179, with
posts still appearing in the Oct-Jan period.

Maybe someone who knows will take pity on us and reveal whatever
obvious explanation prevents you from finding November and December
posts in RBT through Google Groups.

It could be related to location. Because of where he is in the country
or world, Ron may get routed to a different computer, that is supposed
to behave the same as the one you get but for some reason temporarily
isn't.

I couldn't find the thread either by searching, but the link you
provided worked. It's possible part of the search index was missing,
although the actual data was still available.

Andrew Lee said:

I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day
but haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the
Lasers too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they don't look
good to me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith spokes with
Deore LX hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and see what
I think then...

Here's a photo of the Sapim Lasers on a 7700 front hub before tensioning and
before spoke line correction:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9971/img3416vx4.jpg

Andrew Lee' whatsupandrewathotmaildotcom said:

I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day but
haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the Lasers
too.

Now maybe we know why Sapim's bladed spokes last longer than their
round ones in testing.

Judging from their FAQ, they may not know this is a bad thing... DT
didn't either several years ago until many people complained.

BTW, your photo seems to be clipped off at the top... or is it just
me?

To Carl and Ben... now the "hole" is actually growing! Today it
extends from Oct 15 to Feb 4.... yesterday it was Oct 15 to Jan 25.

Andrew Lee' whatsupandrewathotmaildotcom said:

Andrew Lee said:

I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day
but haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the
Lasers too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they don't look
good to me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith spokes with
Deore LX hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and see what
I think then...

Here's a photo of the Sapim Lasers on a 7700 front hub before tensioning and
before spoke line correction:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9971/img3416vx4.jpg

It may just be reflection, but the spoke at the center of the photo
with head out (towards skewer) looks like it has chevrons along the OD
of the bend.

quote='Andrew Lee'Andrew Lee said:

I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day
but haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the
Lasers too. I'd say very long, actually. You're right - they don't look
good to me compared to the very tight/flush fit of Wheelsmith spokes with
Deore LX hubs on my old mountain bike. I'll finish the wheel and see what
I think then...

Here's a photo of the Sapim Lasers on a 7700 front hub before tensioning and
before spoke line correction:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9971/img3416vx4.jpg[/QUOTE]

img76.imageshack.usmy.phpOpen ↗
Dura Ace 7700 front with 3X Sapim Laser

img337.imageshack.usmy.phpOpen ↗
Campy Record front with 3X Sapim Laser

Both after tensioning, spoke line correction, and stabilizing the wheels

On Feb 21, 10:24 am, daveornee <daveornee.2md...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Both after tensioning, spoke line correcting, and stabilizing the
wheels.

The Campy hub looks better, but maybe it is the angle... but on the DA
hub it looks like the elbows are sticking out pretty far. Seems better
to me to have the elbows too short (and just bend them around the hub)
rather than too long, but I'm sure opinions will differ on that.

Ron Ruff said:

Quoted message said:

I got some Sapim Lasers recently. After reading what you wrote, I took a
look at a wheel (with Dura Ace 7700 hubs) that I laced up the other day
but
haven't gotten around to tensioning yet. Same long elbows on the Lasers
too.

Now maybe we know why Sapim's bladed spokes last longer than their
round ones in testing.

The Lasers weigh the same as the CX-Rays and both have 2.0 ends, so I don't
see that this is the difference.

Quoted message said:

Judging from their FAQ, they may not know this is a bad thing... DT
didn't either several years ago until many people complained.

BTW, your photo seems to be clipped off at the top... or is it just
me?

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

Ron Ruff said:

On Feb 21, 10:24 am, daveornee <daveornee.2md...@no-

mx.forums.cyclingforums.com said:

Both after tensioning, spoke line correcting, and stabilizing the
wheels.

The Campy hub looks better, but maybe it is the angle... but on the DA
hub it looks like the elbows are sticking out pretty far. Seems better
to me to have the elbows too short (and just bend them around the hub)
rather than too long, but I'm sure opinions will differ on that.

I have never had "too short" an elbow, but I think that would not be great either. It would make lacing the wheel very difficult.
I welcome other comments on the images & interpretations.

Ben C said:

Quoted message said:

On 20 Feb 2007 19:29:05 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

On Feb 20, 7:30 pm, [email hidden] wrote:
> Before this post, I got 184 results, with several in early January, in
> December, and in November on the first two pages:

Thanks for helping... but I get 157 posts and nothing from Oct 3 to
Jan 26.

Dear Ron,

I'm utterly baffled.

I even tried strict filtering in my Google profile's preferences, but
ignoring X-rated posts only reduced the hits from 184 to 179, with
posts still appearing in the Oct-Jan period.

Maybe someone who knows will take pity on us and reveal whatever
obvious explanation prevents you from finding November and December
posts in RBT through Google Groups.

It could be related to location. Because of where he is in the country
or world, Ron may get routed to a different computer, that is supposed
to behave the same as the one you get but for some reason temporarily
isn't.

I couldn't find the thread either by searching, but the link you
provided worked. It's possible part of the search index was missing,
although the actual data was still available.

Dear Ben,

A quick check shows that the Google Group archive for RBT is working
fine from Pueblo, Colorado for October through today. I can search by
date, see posts month-by-month in user profiles, find posts with the
quick search that fall within the suspect months.

Maybe you're right, and indexes east of the Mississippi are damaged.

If I had any faith in computers, this would shake it.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On 21 Feb 2007 08:14:09 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]>
wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

To Carl and Ben... now the "hole" is actually growing! Today it
extends from Oct 15 to Feb 4.... yesterday it was Oct 15 to Jan 25.

Dear Ron,

I can search for and find RBT posts in Google Groups on Jan 31.

Ben is wondering if our searches go to geographically different index
servers, which is the most plausible theory I've seen so far.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On 2007-02-21, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

A quick check shows that the Google Group archive for RBT is working
fine from Pueblo, Colorado for October through today. I can search by
date, see posts month-by-month in user profiles, find posts with the
quick search that fall within the suspect months.

Maybe you're right, and indexes east of the Mississippi are damaged.

If I had any faith in computers, this would shake it.

I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
to the east of the Mississippi.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spoke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
dated 27 Sep 2006.

This is what my screen looks like:

http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png

Ben C said:

On 2007-02-21, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

A quick check shows that the Google Group archive for RBT is working
fine from Pueblo, Colorado for October through today. I can search by
date, see posts month-by-month in user profiles, find posts with the
quick search that fall within the suspect months.

Maybe you're right, and indexes east of the Mississippi are damaged.

If I had any faith in computers, this would shake it.

I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
to the east of the Mississippi.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spoke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
dated 27 Sep 2006.

This is what my screen looks like:

http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png

Dear Ben,

I clicked on your UK google version link above and got 27 hits, 2 in
January and 4 in December:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spoke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

I get the same 27 hits with plain groups.google.com:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?group=rec.bicycles.tech&q=spoke+line+correction

When I click on Ron's profile in either site, I get the same
month-by-month posting totals and can see his January and December
posts.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:50:00 -0600, Ben C <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
to the east of the Mississippi.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spoke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
dated 27 Sep 2006.

This is what my screen looks like:

http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png

Dear Ben,

I clicked on your UK google version link above and got 27 hits, 2 in
January and 4 in December:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spoke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

Interesting, I tried exactly that url again, and got the same 20 hits I
got before with nothing between 27 Sep 2006 and 3 Feb 2007.

Quoted message said:

I get the same 27 hits with plain groups.google.com:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?group=rec.bicycles.tech&q=spoke+line+correction

And I get just the same 20 hits and the same gap between Sep and Feb,
with this url as well.

Another experiment you could try is to start with http://64.233.179.104,
go to "Groups" and repeat the search. That might take you to the same
server that the internet takes me to, so perhaps you will see the
missing posts. You may just get redirected to your usual server though.

Ben C said:

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 15:50:00 -0600, Ben C <[email hidden]> wrote:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
to the east of the Mississippi.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spoke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
dated 27 Sep 2006.

This is what my screen looks like:

http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png

Dear Ben,

I clicked on your UK google version link above and got 27 hits, 2 in
January and 4 in December:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spoke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

Interesting, I tried exactly that url again, and got the same 20 hits I
got before with nothing between 27 Sep 2006 and 3 Feb 2007.

Quoted message said:

I get the same 27 hits with plain groups.google.com:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?group=rec.bicycles.tech&q=spoke+line+correction

And I get just the same 20 hits and the same gap between Sep and Feb,
with this url as well.

Another experiment you could try is to start with http://64.233.179.104,
go to "Groups" and repeat the search. That might take you to the same
server that the internet takes me to, so perhaps you will see the
missing posts. You may just get redirected to your usual server though.

Dear Ben,

I tried the numeric address, went to RBT, and got the same 27 hits for
spoke line correction.

But I end up in groups.google.com, not groups.google.co.uk.

When I force it to groups.google.co.uk, I still get the same 27 hits
with hits in January and December:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?group=rec.bicycles.tech&q=spoke+line+correction

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Ben C said:

On 2007-02-21, [email hidden] <[email hidden]> wrote:
[...]

Quoted message said:

A quick check shows that the Google Group archive for RBT is working
fine from Pueblo, Colorado for October through today. I can search by
date, see posts month-by-month in user profiles, find posts with the
quick search that fall within the suspect months.

Maybe you're right, and indexes east of the Mississippi are damaged.

If I had any faith in computers, this would shake it.

I tried searching RBT for "spoke line correction" from a location well
to the east of the Mississippi.

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=spoke+line+correction&start=0&scoring=d&hl=en&

I clicked "Sort by Date". I got three recent messages, followed by one
dated 27 Sep 2006.

This is what my screen looks like:

http://www.tidraso.co.uk/misc/google.png

Dear Ben,

Since we see different things when we look with the search engine, I'm
beginning to wonder if you and Ron will disappear, along with Google
Groups, if I can find a propeller to stick my hand into:

http://tzone.the-croc.com/tzeplist/arrival.html

Cheers,

Mr. Sheckly