spoke lacing and profile crank question

Seager...

1) I built my old trials wheel 3 cross. With 4 cross, the spokes may
enter the rim at a weird angle, on such a small rim. But I could be
wrong.

2) I have no idea when they were made. 😕

Mojoe

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Yea, the spokes are actually digging into the hub flanges on a 4-cross
I've got. It's kind of crazy.

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1) 4 cross will give you a stronger wheel

2) I don't think profile ever used a hex head bolt

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I say forget about the 4x spoke pattern and go with 3x because they are
the most comon and if you make a wheel with a lets say and alex dx 32
rim with stainless spokes you should bend any crank on the market
before you ruin your wheel unless you land realy bad but then it
will be a bone that breaks

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Onetrack, I'll post a picture if you want but they are standard bolt
heads that you use a socket wrench on. I wasn't able to get a clear
story about their origin so I was just wondering how old they are.
Just for the heck of it. I didn't know they existed either. They also
seem to be 140s...

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Seager

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Use 3 cross, it is plenty strong. 4 cross sometimes runs into a problem
where the spokes are leaving the hub at too close to tangential.

I'm pretty sure profile doesn't (and hasn't) made 140s.

Is there a reason why you want the ones with the hex head?

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well, I have the ones with the hex head, I'm just wondering what their
history is. I don't know that they are 140's, but when held up next to
KH140s they sure look the same length. I know they've gotten down to
145 in the past (and make some now)

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Seager

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Seager said:

well, I have the ones with the hex head, I'm just wondering what their
history is. I don't know that they are 140's, but when held up next to
KH140s they sure look the same length. I know they've gotten down to
145 in the past (and make some now)

Yeah, I just remembered that my friends profiles on his bike have the
hex head. Dunno how old they are though. I think the shortest profile
can make cranks is 145 for some reason having to do with their machines
not going small enough or something.

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TheObieOne3226

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\"obie is definately a trend setter, i got in to unicycling because of
him, and came here because of him\" - kj-52

\"try not to annoy the great obie, for he is better than us.\" - murde
mental

*disclaimer: the above message was not intended to offend anyone. if
you are offended i can take no responsibility for my actions because i
don't feel like it. also you are reading an internet newsgroup where
not everyone will share your same views and beliefs, be able to take
criticism and post/read threads at your own risk.*
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I'd like to see a pic. there are quite a few profile look alikes
floating around that use hex bolts (which would explain it being a
140mm crank). Also, it's not like the allen bolt has to be used. A
previous owner could have swaped it out for a hex bolt.

Quoted message said:

I say forget about the 4x spoke pattern and go with 3x because they are
the most comon and if you make a wheel with a lets say and alex dx 32
rim with stainless spokes you should bend any crank on the market
before you ruin your wheel unless you land realy bad but then it will
be a bone that breaks

I would just like to note, that going 4 cross wont be any harder to
build, or cost any more than 3 cross, but you will end up with a
stronger wheel. And what if you do "land realy bad" wouldn't you rather
know that you are using the strongest lacing patern?

The fewer the crosses, the stiffer. the more crosses, the stronger.
radial being the stiffest and weakest, and 4 cross being the strongest
but having the most flex.

19" wheels are really stout, which is why 3 cross will hold up under
abusive riding. but if you would like your wheel to be truer, longer,
I'd go 4.

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I haven't seen evidence that wheels with fewer crossings are stiffer. I
don't see why they would be so, either; certainly radially spoked
wheels would feel quite loose on a unicycle, due to wind-up.

I also don't think four-cross is inherently stronger than three-cross;
if four-cross causes weird spoke angles at the hub or rim, it will put
stresses on the spokes which will be more likely to lead to spoke
failure.

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The story behind the bolts is that the Hex head bolts that you see on
lots of BMX bikes are the standard profile bolts. Buy a profile
crank/bottombracket set and it should ship with those regular hex
bolts. The allen bolts we use are known as the profile "[censored]' bolts"
and can be bought at extra cost. For some reason the profile unicycle
hub has always shipped with the [censored] bolts standard.

4 cross isn't neccessarily stronger on a 19" wheel because opf the odd
angles and stresses the spokes are exposed to. Also, a 19" wheel
doesn't really need that extra strength, since it's so small. On top of
all of this, it depends what kind of strength you're wondering about.
For axial flex during pedaling, the more crosses, generally the
stronger, however for lateral flex during hops, there's not nearly as
much difference between 3 cross and four, since the spacing of the
spokes isn't really changing.

Both my trials and muni wheels are 3 cross and I've never had problems
with flex or tacoing. I think that the quality of the wheel build plays
a far bigger part in the wheel strength than the soke pattern.

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gerblefranklin

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tholub said:

Ian Smith said:

However, the stiffness of the 'rigid' parts of the wheel (hub,
spokes, rim) pale into insignificance compared to the behaviour of the
tyre. While the wheel may be stiffer, what you 'feel' radially will
be the behaviour of the tyre.

I think it is, though only slightly - a good three three-cross will
probably be better than a merely average four-cross.

Regarding radial stiffness, you note yourself on your page that "it
should be apparent that the answer is that different spoking makes very
little difference to the stiffness." The difference between
three-cross and four-cross in your example is .0028mm maximal
deflection; that is four orders of magnitude less than the tire
deflection of a MUni or trials tire, well below any level of human
perception.

Yes, that's what I said above, too.

Quoted message said:

The strength of a wheel is largely a function of the spoke tension.

Yes, that's what I said above, too (although indirectly, referring to
"good three-cross", and "merely average four-cross"😉.

regards, Ian SMith
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