Spoke "cross pattern"

hmm a 4 cross is worse in many ways than a 3 cross. it makes the wheel
an amazing amount stiffer, but it puts a HUGE amount of extra stress on
the spokes and causes them to break much easier. i know that on a 20"
wheel a 4 cross can make the rim look like cody's recent one from one
good bunnyhop.

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Quoted message said:

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IMO a broken spoke is better than a bent rim.

Go for the 4 cross. Esp considering you bent your KH rim. Was the rim
true and the spokes tight before that drop?

hobo_chuck said:

ah, but do you have 36 spokes or 48 spokes?

It's 36

skrobo - If Cody replaced that spoke and made sure the rim was true
(preferably when he first mounted it) before doing that drop it prob.
wouldn't have bent. And the vid he posted of his earlier drop in the
same place it looked like he landed sideways w/ no roll out, puting a
lot more stress on the rim.

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skrobo: What evidence do you have that four-cross puts more stress on
the spokes?

Whether 3-cross or 4-cross is more effective depends mostly on the
spoke line, which is the result of the rim diameter, the Q-factor of
the hub, the width and height of the hub flange, and the location and
nature of the spoke holes in the rim. The problem is, with many
4-cross configurations it can be hard to get the spoke elbow to lie
flat against the hub flange in a four-cross wheel; if the spoke elbow
can't be properly stress-relieved, the elbow will tend to go through
fatigue cycles more quickly and will fail prematurely.

All else being equal, a 4-cross wheel will be stronger than a 3-cross
wheel, because the force on the hub is more nearly tangential (or fully
tangential) and therefore the hub can take more tension without flange
failure. But it depends on the specific configuration.

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Thanks for the replies so far, but unfortunately I was looking for a
consensus, and so far it's pretty much split! I have looked online but
cannot find ANY pics of ANY uni with anything other than a 3 cross. If
anyone can link a pic showing a muni with a 4 cross, I'd love to see
it.

Here's a question for those (apparently few) people who run a Large
Marge rim on their Munis: Do you have a 3 or a 4 cross spoke pattern? I
guess that's what I should have asked in the first place since it's a
muni-specific question.

Edit: I just found this website that says a 3 cross is strongest for a
36 hole rim, and a 4 cross is best for 48 spokes. (Look at No.#3)
http://tinyurl.com/2xogtj

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The higher the cross number, the more nearly tangential the spokes are
to the hub flange. The more nearly tangential the spokes are to the hub
flange, the better they transmit rotational power to the rim. So, where
large rotational forces are applied, I would think larger crosses are
better, as this makes it more rotationally rigid.

With a smaller cross number, the spokes apply force to rim more nearly
perpendicular to the flange, so they produce a more laterally rigid
wheel.

On a muni, rotational rigidity is important, but I would think lateral
rigidity is more important (think: side hops).

So my vote is for 3x.

Also, to skilewis: I've seen more of this line of thinking recently,
i.e. if we intentionally weaken one part of the wheel, we can ensure
that a cheaper part breaks before the more expensive part. However,
I'm not sure I buy it. If all the parts are working together, the
entire wheel can take muuuuch more stress than if you intentionally
create a weak link (think: When they're all working together, the
overall strength is greater than the sum of its components). When you
weak link breaks, you say "See? It saved it", but if properly
maintained, no parts should have to be replaced, because it can take a
load more than most riders can apply. In addition, I would say a
failure is not just one or the other, like either a spoke or a rim. If
the spoke failed, it was either pulling too hard on the rim or not hard
enough, in which either case the rim would also be affected. So,
intentionally weakening one part of the wheel to create weak link
endangers not just that one part of the wheel, but the whole wheel,
which is counter to the purpose.

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A 4 cross wheel with 36 spokes is not normal. The theory goes that a
wheel with more crosses will be more tollerant to abuse because the
spokes are longer and have the ability to transfer their energy to 4
other spokes rather than 3.
Although on a smaller wheel with a large flange (a KH24 comes in the
catagory) the angle that the spoke end is entering the flange is such
that it has a tendency to touch the head of the spoke next to it and
this causes a stress point. The other worrying area is that the nipple
will be entering the rim at a more accute angle. This will cause
greater stress at this point.
Should your wheel be a 29" (700c) or a 36" then 4 cross I would have
thought does create a stronger wheel (certainly on a 36"😉, on the 24" I
would dought it and would probably make a weaker wheel.

Roger

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rogeratunicycledotcom said:

A 4 cross wheel with 36 spokes is not normal.

Yeah that seems to be the general consensus, but then I checked my new
radial 36 deluxe and it *does* have a 4 cross pattern! I'm assuming
this is the exception since there is more rotational force? ANyway,
this whole topic is intriguing to me and I love learning new stuff!😄

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rogeratunicycledotcom said:

A 4 cross wheel with 36 spokes is not normal. [...]
Should your wheel be a 29" (700c) or a 36" then 4 cross I would have
thought does create a stronger wheel (certainly on a 36"😉, on the 24" I
would dought it and would probably make a weaker wheel.
Roger

MuniAddict said:

Yeah that seems to be the general consensus, but then I checked my new
radial 36 deluxe and it *does* have a 4 cross pattern! I'm assuming
this is the exception since there is more rotational force? ANyway,
this whole topic is intriguing to me and I love learning new stuff!😄

did you read his whole post (directed at terry)?

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I like my women like my gin; 10 years old and mixed up with coke.

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MuniAddict said:

Yeah that seems to be the general consensus, but then I checked my new
radial 36 deluxe and it *does* have a 4 cross pattern! I'm assuming
this is the exception since there is more rotational force? ANyway,
this whole topic is intriguing to me and I love learning new stuff!😄

I think it's actually because the original coker rim had spokes of a
certain length. These were the only easily obtainable 36" spokes at the
time. When the Airfoil came out, a lot of people had to build up their
wheels with the original spokes, but the Airfoil has a different spoke
hole diameter (because it's a deeper section rim I guess). Fortunately
doing 4 cross rather than 3 cross allows you to use original coker
length spokes, and allows unicycle.com etc. to standardise their 36"
spoke length.

Joe

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joemarshall said:

I think it's actually because the original coker rim had spokes of a
certain length.

Interesting. Very convenient if it works out that way! But meanwhile, as
the wheel size gets larger (or # of spokes increases) the idea of a
4-cross will physically fit better. It makes more sense on a Coker than
on a smaller 36-spoke wheel.

My own experience was with a 24" wheel. I remembered having a 4-cross
pattern on some other wheel, probably a 20", and requested my bike shop
build that on my 24" (or was it one of my early attempts at a MUni, at
26"?). But the resulting wheel did not look right at all, as the
mechanic tried to warn me before he did it. I ended up changing the
wheel.

If you can't find any examples of a 4-cross in the wheel size you're
looking to make, that should be pretty solid evidence that it probably
won't help you.

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onelesscar said:

The higher the cross number, the more nearly tangential the spokes are
to the hub flange.

Until you go high enough that the spokes are beyond tangential.
That's a function of rim and hub diameters as well as cross number.

Quoted message said:

large rotational forces are applied, I would think larger crosses are
better, as this makes it more rotationally rigid.

It's stronger and more durable rotationally because a given torque
results in lower spoke forces the closer to tangential are the spokes.

Quoted message said:

With a smaller cross number, the spokes apply force to rim more nearly
perpendicular to the flange, so they produce a more laterally rigid
wheel.

A more rigid wheel, yes, but principally just because the spokes are
slightly shorter. A more rigid wheel is not necessarily stronger or
more durable. Plus, the hub is stronger tangentially than radially.
Besides, the effect is pretty negligible.

As to the original question - 3x is certainly more normal, but if you
want your life ruled by what's normal why are you riding a unicycle?

4x is probably better, so long as the spokes have not gone beyond
tangential, and also don't cross over adjacent spoke heads. The
difference is unlikely to be significant - it will make less effect
than the skill of your wheelbuilder.

regards, Ian SMith
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zfreak220 said:

did you read his whole post (directed at terry)?

Oh yeah thanks! I missed that.😄

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this thread will go on for-ever________even if Sheldon and Jobst were to
weigh in!

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