Splitting 2x20 min into shorter intervals.

dot said:

I wonder what is the shortest duration I can split 2x20 intervals into to keep them effective? What recovery period between them?

I need this for my trainer/rollers workouts, 20 min of steady work is too long and boring for me and my butt particularly, I want something shorter.

Ten minutes is typically considered the shortest duration for effective Threshold intervals, personally I target 12 minutes or more for Threshold work. It takes nearly 8 minutes for the body to transition to the point where it's primarily relying on sustained metabolic processes for energy production so even in a 12 minute Threshold effort you've spent nearly two thirds of that time just 'priming the pump'. OTOH, the body doesn't respond immediately to changes in intensity so breaks shorter than roughly 30 seconds don't split a longer effort.

The actual recovery period between Threshold efforts doesn't really matter. You can rest for half an hour if you've got the time, the key thing is how much time you sustain the actual efforts. That's different than recovery breaks between short L6 intervals where partial recovery is often used as part of the overall workout.

Personally I'd work on ways to combat any focus or boredom issues as learning to sustain solid Tempo and Threshold efforts has many advantages at least for someone competing. It's the same skill that needs to be developed to time trial well or to sustain a solo or small break while racing. If you're struggling with comfort then you might want to work on your fit or your saddle options, rollers and trainers tend to highlight comfort problems but if you can't sit for a full 20 minutes then there's probably issues there that you're masking out on the road by moving around more.

Good luck,
-Dave

I agree with dave on the fact that 10 min is really the shortest duration you can get away with for specific threshold training and i have always found 15-20+ has worked best for and other that i have spoken to.

What i feel you should be looking at. like dave said, is working out a way of menatllt breaking down the intervals in order to complete them. When i was doing a solid block of turbo training which consisited of 20 min intervals after 20 min intervals for what seemed like an age, i quickly created and arsonal of varrying 20 min efforts. Things like standing up for 30 second every 5 mins as this gives your butt a rest and breaks the effort in to chuncks which you can ain for. I also varried the pace just slightly such as a hard 1 min effort every 5 mins or even varrying the pace for each 5 min block, alternating slightly above or slightly below your threshold.

I found that this works for me and just makes it feel like you are doing something different, try some and you will find what works best for you

Dan

DVDs and music get me through the most painful/grueling indoor workouts, and I couldn't tell you how many 2x20s I have done indoors. In fact 2x20s, where you keep a steady pace/power output for the duration are best for watching DVDs. With shorter intervals, the interval itself actually distracts me from the movie, but with sustained efforts, the movie can distract you from the pain (just keep your power numbers/cadence up!!!)

An effective threshold workout is 6x5x1 @ 106-108% of FTP. The first couple should be relatively easy and the last few are more of a challenge. I like these outdoors better than 2x20's but haven't tried them on a trainer.

gregf83 said:

An effective threshold workout is 6x5x1 @ 106-108% of FTP. The first couple should be relatively easy and the last few are more of a challenge. I like these outdoors better than 2x20's but haven't tried them on a trainer.

30, 1 minute intervals done well above FTP? I think I'm misunderstanding something, can you explain how that targets FTP as opposed to Anaerobic Capacity, or VO2 max?

quenya said:

30, 1 minute intervals done well above FTP? I think I'm misunderstanding something, can you explain how that targets FTP as opposed to Anaerobic Capacity, or VO2 max?

Sorry, the nomenclature I used was number x duration (min) x rest (min). So 6 - 5min intervals with 1 min rest between.

gregf83 said:

Sorry, the nomenclature I used was number x duration (min) x rest (min). So 6 - 5min intervals with 1 min rest between.

Ok, I get that... But 5 min intervals well above FTP reads like a VO2 max workout. As I understand it, while this routine will certainly pay dividends at lower intensities/zonesbut, it targets a unique zone and provides stimulus for different physiological adaptations.
Again my understanding of the subject is far from extensive so if I'm in error please don't hesitate to clarify.

quenya said:

Ok, I get that... But 5 min intervals well above FTP reads like a VO2 max workout. As I understand it, while this routine will certainly pay dividends at lower intensities/zonesbut, it targets a unique zone and provides stimulus for different physiological adaptations.
Again my understanding of the subject is far from extensive so if I'm in error please don't hesitate to clarify.

These intervals are at too low a power for VO2Max adaptations. Technically, they are supposed to be done at 80% of Wpeak (which I believe corresponds to VO2Max power). VO2 intervals would normally be done at or closer to 100% of VO2Max power.

I basically do them at whatever power I can to complete the 6 intervals. I found that if I use a particular target power they gradually become easier and then I just bump up the target power until they are painful again.

You can read more about them in "Metabolic and performance adaptations to interval training in endurance-trained cyclists." (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9134360)

dot said:

I wonder what is the shortest duration I can split 2x20 intervals into to keep them effective? What recovery period between them?

I need this for my trainer/rollers workouts, 20 min of steady work is too long and boring for me and my butt particularly, I want something shorter.

IMO, (but I'm just a weirdo when it comes to training on the trainer cause I love it) you just have to ask yourself why you want to train in the first place and what your goals are.

For me, I can't wait to get on everyday all winter long. I just have a huge desire of improving my power, cadence and everything else possible and I know that with every interval minute I get better (even if it doesn't feel like it sometimes).

Make out a log book/journal, where you can write down all of the data on paper, and see the results improving. Also a weekly set schedule helps me out.

Check your bike fit if you're uncomfortable, but the trainer also takes some getting used to.

I also DVR'ed most of the TDF so I can play it back during workouts.

Aside from all the sage advice you've gotten from the regulars above...

You might consider doing 8 minutes @ 100%+ FTP w/1 minute rest x 5.

That would give you a total of 40 minutes of solid L4 but break it up into 8 minute chunks with just enough rest to catch your breath, drink water, towel off, etc.

FWIW, when I've done this or a 2 x 15m format w/ 5 minutes rest....I've found that I do them at over 100% FTP, usually 105-110%, but then that's indicative of my own physiology. Even for someone with an average anaerobic capacity though, I'd expect these intervals would be done at 100%.

Another variation you can try would be microintervals of say, 15 seconds on @ 150%/15 seconds off @50%. From experience I can tell you that the 20 minutes will fly by and you can forget about any notion of boredom...

gregf83 said:

These intervals are at too low a power for VO2Max adaptations.

One doesn't have to train above threshold to attain gains in VO2max.

Alex Simmons said:

One doesn't have to train above threshold to attain gains in VO2max.

Agreed. I just assumed you would normally train at a higher power to optimize VO2Max?

Dear baby jebus what a farkurn train wreck of nonsense this thread is.

Do your farken 2x20 or go take up lawn bowls. end of story.

They dont take you too deep into the cookie jar but give you mucho physiological goodness and technical utilty.

now [censored] all of you.

(except alex cos he knows more than me).

th end.

VadarStrikesBack said:

Dear baby jebus what a farkurn train wreck of nonsense this thread is.

Do your farken 2x20 or go take up lawn bowls. end of story.

They dont take you too deep into the cookie jar but give you mucho physiological goodness and technical utilty.

now [censored] all of you.

er, great advice but if I were gonna do these 2x20 on a trainer/rollers I would've kept my mouth shut and haven't bothered You for an instant in the first place. Indoors workouts are boring and I don't like to keep the same pace/gear for more than 5 minutes just to keep me motivated to climb on a bike indoors next time. I'm already over listening to music or watching any movies since I do my workouts late in the night and can't keep volume high enough to overcome the trainer's noise though it's low (btw I live in a block of flats, not a detached house) and actually any additional sound bugs me a lot. That's why I'm asking about splitting them workouts.

I agree with you indoor workouts suck. I think Dave really hit the nail on the head with his reply. If you can't maintain focus for 20 mins that is probably what you need to work on.

VadarStrikesBack said:

Dear baby jebus what a farkurn train wreck of nonsense this thread is.

Do your farken 2x20 or go take up lawn bowls. end of story.

They dont take you too deep into the cookie jar but give you mucho physiological goodness and technical utilty.

now [censored] all of you.

(except alex cos he knows more than me).

th end.

I didn't know the gunt truck was gonna dump Vadar on us...

But yeah, what he said. If you go hard enough you won't have time to be bored and if you can get the motivation to do more than 5 minutes at a time then why ride?

If find it ironic that they're looking to split an interval that's already been split because folks don't want to go hard for an hour... Well, it's not actually an hour peeps. Stop slacking and get on the 4x25 program.

Swampy, I've done several 4x20s, which is not much worse than 2x20s except it takes a bit more time and leaves me on the verge of bonking.

Btw 4x25 = 1 hour? Will you be the time keeper while I try to set a new hour record?:p

swampy1970 said:

But yeah, what he said. If you go hard enough you won't have time to be bored and if you can get the motivation to do more than 5 minutes at a time then why ride?

oh, you keep telling me. I like my trainer, I truly do. But I can't keep going hard for long periods of time. It really kills my mind. Killer accelerations or hard 3x3x30x30 sets, anything short and painful - they're fine but anything longer 4-5 minutes, I start to hate everything around, kinda demotivating.

quenya said:

Swampy, I've done several 4x20s, which is not much worse than 2x20s except it takes a bit more time and leaves me on the verge of bonking.

Btw 4x25 = 1 hour? Will you be the time keeper while I try to set a new hour record?:p

An hour isn't worth getting the bike kit on unless its an interesting time trial...

25 with 5 minutes rest x 4 = 2 hours.

Get with the program ye young whippersnapper. Kids these days... sheesh. 😉