Speedwork for the casual runner?

Quoted message said:

So my question... is it possible that mixing in a few faster miles per
week would make the rest feel like a cake walk, and thus make my running
more enjoyable overall?

I am a great believer in speedwork...if your objective is to improve
your times. I have seen many people in similar positions who have been
amazed at how they suddenly start running PBs after years of running.

I guess if you always run at 9mins/mile in training, you are only
training your body to run at 9min/mile.

I think that you are doing the right thing to start by just modifying
your existing run, but I would mix it up a bit....sometimes push for
one mile, sometime push for several shorter distances (a bit quicker)
and run easy to recover in between.

Do it no more than every second day and you will surprise yourself.
Good luck.
Garry

"timeOday" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been running about 20 miles per week for a little over 3 years
now. I run mainly because I like how it makes me feel when I'm not
running. The running itself usually feels like work, though on very
rare occasions I feel wonderful. I run most of my miles at 9
minutes/mile

Sounds like the old story of asking the guy why he hit himself in the
head with a hammer - because it felt better when he stopped. I suspect
you are running too fast. Could you talk to someone if they were running
next to you without gasping for air? Anyway, try going a little slower
and see it doesn't feel better.

..

Quoted message said:

So my question... is it possible that mixing in a few faster miles per
week would make the rest feel like a cake walk, and thus make my
running more enjoyable overall?

With 20 miles a week, a big maybe. I think you would do better to run a
bit slower and increase your miles per week. A better base will get your
plodding time down naturally. Trying to run fast with a minimal base is
risky.

-DougF

GRW said:

Quoted message said:

So my question... is it possible that mixing in a few faster miles per
week would make the rest feel like a cake walk, and thus make my running
more enjoyable overall?

I am a great believer in speedwork...if your objective is to improve
your times. I have seen many people in similar positions who have been
amazed at how they suddenly start running PBs after years of running.

My perspective on this is a little different. I've found that no matter how
hard I push speed workouts, if I'm only doing 20 miles a week, I'm still
slow. Maybe faster than I would be with 20 miles a week of jogging, but
still much slower than I can run with higher mileage.

Quoted message said:

I guess if you always run at 9mins/mile in training, you are only
training your body to run at 9min/mile.

If that's true, then why is it that nearly all the top distance runners
"train their bodies" to run slower than 6 minutes per mile, then race at
just over 4 minutes per mile ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

timeOday said:

I've been running about 20 miles per week for a little over 3 years now.
I run mainly because I like how it makes me feel when I'm not running.
The running itself usually feels like work, though on very rare
occasions I feel wonderful. I run most of my miles at 9 minutes/mile.
Today I ran 1 mile (mile 3 of 4) in 7 minutes and it was all I could do.
It was quite difficult.

So my question... is it possible that mixing in a few faster miles per
week would make the rest feel like a cake walk, and thus make my running
more enjoyable overall?

Slowing down your runs will make them feel easier. Adding some speed work
might improve your fitness, but your mileage is really low, so there's little
point doing very hard speed workouts (because with mileage that low, you'll
be slow regardless).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

why is it that nearly all the top distance runners
"train their bodies" to run slower than 6 minutes per mile, then race at
just over 4 minutes per mile ?

Come on Donovan. Don't twist my words to try and score points.
I agree on the mileage being low, but I think you will find that top
runners don't actually do ALL of their training at the same pace.
While they may do long runs at 6mins per mile, you will find that
their fartlek, sustained runs and track sessions are quite a bit
faster.

Garry

GRW said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

why is it that nearly all the top distance runners
"train their bodies" to run slower than 6 minutes per mile, then race at
just over 4 minutes per mile ?

Come on Donovan. Don't twist my words to try and score points.
I agree on the mileage being low, but I think you will find that top
runners don't actually do ALL of their training at the same pace.

That's true. The point I was trying to make is that it's an oversimplification
to talk about "training your body to run" at a certain pace. I understand that
*you* know better than this (it's actually implicit in a careful reading of your
post), but the guy who you are responding to probably doesn't.

Dumbing the physiology of running down to this level doesn't really help
anyone. My experience in dealing with beginners is that in their enthusiasm to
run fast, they neglect easy aerobic training and as a result, they end up at
best running slowly and at worst getting injured. So my concern is that one
must be very careful to avoid giving advice that will be misinterpreted as a
green light to hammer out speed workouts all the time.

I'd also generally argue against a beginner doing a speed workout every second
day. I think that's way too much for someone running 20 miles a week (in fact
twice a week is plenty even for most high mileage runners).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Donovan Rebbechi said:

My experience in dealing with beginners is that in their enthusiasm to
run fast, they neglect easy aerobic training and as a result, they end up at
best running slowly and at worst getting injured. So my concern is that one
must be very careful to avoid giving advice that will be misinterpreted as a
green light to hammer out speed workouts all the time.

I'd also generally argue against a beginner doing a speed workout every second
day. I think that's way too much for someone running 20 miles a week (in fact
twice a week is plenty even for most high mileage runners).

OK. Points taken, but not necesarily all agreed with. If pushing a
bit during two of your runs per week is all you can commit to after 3
years of running, then it should pay dividends.
Regards.
Garry

In article <[email hidden]>,

GRW said:

Quoted message said:

So my question... is it possible that mixing in a few faster miles per
week would make the rest feel like a cake walk, and thus make my running
more enjoyable overall?

I am a great believer in speedwork...if your objective is to improve
your times. I have seen many people in similar positions who have been
amazed at how they suddenly start running PBs after years of running.

The years of running laid down a solid base and adapted the
body to the stresses of running. Reverse the program -- take
someone and have them only do speed work for a few months --
and see how well they do. The speed work was frosting on the
cake of those years of base miles. It's good for the last
percents of improvement, but without the base, the speed
work is simply a recipe for injury.

Quoted message said:

I guess if you always run at 9mins/mile in training, you are only
training your body to run at 9min/mile.

This is a poor guess, it turns out. See Noakes' _Lore of Running_
for the physiology details.

The thing is, your body doesn't do anything in isolation. When
you run, you exercise _all_ metabolic pathways, _all_ running mechanics,
_all_ 'systems'. The balance between them shifts depending on pace,
but even if you're putting in nothing but 10 milers at LSD pace,
you are training the systems your body needs to race the mile.

Even though I knew about this, I was surprised by one of my
running PRs. I trained for a 50 km trail race. Obviously my
training was almost all long and slow. I did do some 'short and
fast' -- 1200m repeats. But only a time or two in the entire runup.
Mostly my 'speed' was tempo runs (hour race pace). Did the race
ok. (Got some warnings about how to train better for the next one.)

So, 6 weeks later I went to a track meet. And I set a PR for
200m -- a flat out sprint, a distance and type of running I had
done absolutely no training towards for at least 10 months. The
_only_ way that could happen was that putting in those miles
even at slow pace, all of them vastly slower than 200m pace!,
had nevertheless trained up the sprinting systems. (The prior
PR was set at a time when I was actively working towards
sprint distances. It wasn't soft, but I beat it by 0.7 seconds
with nothing but long and slow training.)

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Theres a style of running with a funny scandinavian name called
fartlek. That is to put some near-sprint portions periodically in
regular runs. I do that in the second half of a run after I've warmed
up a bit and am feeling smooth.

timeOday said:

I've been running about 20 miles per week for a little over 3 years now.
I run mainly because I like how it makes me feel when I'm not running.
The running itself usually feels like work, though on very rare
occasions I feel wonderful. I run most of my miles at 9 minutes/mile.
Today I ran 1 mile (mile 3 of 4) in 7 minutes and it was all I could do.
It was quite difficult.

So my question... is it possible that mixing in a few faster miles per
week would make the rest feel like a cake walk, and thus make my running
more enjoyable overall?

Basically if you want to run faster you have to train faster. My
thoughts are that you should have one long slow run and one speed
workout each week, the rest of the time is just filler material to add
mileage.

Eric

Since you indicate you are a casual runner, I would agree with the
others and suggest that you just run your miles at "cake walk" pace (or
what Dr. George Sheehan called "comfortable"😉.

timeOday said:

I've been running about 20 miles per week for a little over 3 years now.
I run mainly because I like how it makes me feel when I'm not running.
The running itself usually feels like work, though on very rare
occasions I feel wonderful. I run most of my miles at 9 minutes/mile.
Today I ran 1 mile (mile 3 of 4) in 7 minutes and it was all I could do.
It was quite difficult.

So my question... is it possible that mixing in a few faster miles per
week would make the rest feel like a cake walk, and thus make my running
more enjoyable overall?

Michael said:

Since you indicate you are a casual runner, I would agree with the
others and suggest that you just run your miles at "cake walk" pace (or
what Dr. George Sheehan called "comfortable"😉.

[snip]
[the original poster wrote:]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So my question... is it possible that mixing in a few faster miles per
week would make the rest feel like a cake walk, and thus make my running
more enjoyable overall?

In my experience (which is less than yours in general -- I've only been
running a year+, but I have been mixing speed work in and I currently
run 35-45mpw,) adding speedwork makes my "casual" days faster not
easier. When I'm doing all my runs at my "normal" pace, I average about
10mpm. If I throw a day of speed -- I usually do a constant hard effort
run at slightly more than a distance I'm looking to race soon; most
recently I ran 7 miles at an 8:40mpm pace -- then my subsequent "normal"
runs feel the same effort-wise (and look the same on my HRM,) but are
noticably faster, 9:30mpm initially, then dropping back to 10mpm over a
month.

But remember, the plural of anecdote is not data. This is how it has
worked for me.

Cheers,
Craig

--
Corollary to Clarke's Third Law:
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently
advanced.

timeOday said:

I've been running about 20 miles per week for a little over 3 years now.
I run mainly because I like how it makes me feel when I'm not running.
The running itself usually feels like work, though on very rare
occasions I feel wonderful. I run most of my miles at 9 minutes/mile.
Today I ran 1 mile (mile 3 of 4) in 7 minutes and it was all I could do.
It was quite difficult.

So my question... is it possible that mixing in a few faster miles per
week would make the rest feel like a cake walk, and thus make my running
more enjoyable overall?

I've been running for 12 years and this is the first season I've
included speed work. I train at 8:45-9:00 depending on surface and
run about 30 miles average per week.

This season (2006) I started doing intervals one time per week. I do
400M fast/slow intervals for 2.5 miles and then 200M intervals for 1.5
miles. Fast is about 7:15 for the 400, 6:50 for the 200.

I can't say I really enjoy the intervals, but I have hit PRs in both
5K and 10K this year. They will impact your speed if that is your
goal. But like me, you may not like them at least compared to normal
training runs. And I have been able to add a little distance without
slowing down.

Frank

Doug Freese said:

"timeOday" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been running about 20 miles per week for a little over 3 years
now. I run mainly because I like how it makes me feel when I'm not
running. The running itself usually feels like work, though on very
rare occasions I feel wonderful. I run most of my miles at 9
minutes/mile

Sounds like the old story of asking the guy why he hit himself in the
head with a hammer - because it felt better when he stopped. I suspect
you are running too fast. Could you talk to someone if they were running
next to you without gasping for air? Anyway, try going a little slower
and see it doesn't feel better.

.

Quoted message said:

So my question... is it possible that mixing in a few faster miles per
week would make the rest feel like a cake walk, and thus make my
running more enjoyable overall?

With 20 miles a week, a big maybe. I think you would do better to run a
bit slower and increase your miles per week. A better base will get your
plodding time down naturally. Trying to run fast with a minimal base is
risky.

-DougF

I'm going to second Doug's comments about slowing down. Being someone
who currently averages about 20 mpw (will be increasing), I'm usually
antsy to get out there running again (but keeping my increases at a
reasonable level) because I enjoy the feeling *while* running. But I run
slowly and modified my running form from when I first started.

Consider your running form to run gently. How many times do your feet
touch per minute - anywhere near 180 footfalls / min (or 90 on each
foot)? If significantly less than let, consider a few runs where you
take smaller quicker strides so you are airborne less. See if that
allows you to enjoy running more. Are you running tall or hunched over?

Another suggestion is to run trails and consider running as an adventure
and explore new worlds. Heck, put some walk breaks in there or stop to
watch the ducks on the pond sometimes. Even some of the fastest ultra
runners take the time to enjoy the scenery in training.

I agree with the others in that speedwork probably is not your answer.
You just don't have the base. And if your present runs are
uncomfortable, I'm guessing your more likely to be going too fast than
too slow or could improve your form / biomechanics.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Consider your running form to run gently. How many times do your feet
touch per minute - anywhere near 180 footfalls / min (or 90 on each
foot)? If significantly less than let, consider a few runs where you
take smaller quicker strides so you are airborne less. See if that

Doing strides is also a good way to address this issue -- that way, you're
implementing changes in a very incremental way.

Quoted message said:

Another suggestion is to run trails and consider running as an adventure
and explore new worlds. Heck, put some walk breaks in there or stop to
watch the ducks on the pond sometimes.

This is an excellent idea. Whether or not you are fortunate enough to have
beautiful scenery available to you, taking walk breaks is a good way to make
the whole experience less stressful. After working with a reasonably proficient
but casual runner who took walk breaks, I concluded that these were very
useful even if you're fit enough to comfortably run the distance. Adding the
walk breaks shifts the emphasis from trying to push the pace (bad idea) to just
getting the miles in (which should be the goal).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"rick++" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Theres a style of running with a funny scandinavian name called
fartlek.

Darn, I thought it was reverse acid reflux. 😉

Quoted message said:

That is to put some near-sprint portions periodically in
regular runs. I do that in the second half of a run after I've
warmed
up a bit and am feeling smooth.

True but at 20 miles a week, is that 3 miles a day for 7 days or twice a
week at 10 miles a pop? Even with fartleks you should warm up for a few
miles, do some pick ups, and then warm down for a mile or two. Might be
hard to do with a run only three or four miles.

-DF

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Dot dot.h@#duh?att.net said:

Consider your running form to run gently. How many times do your feet
touch per minute - anywhere near 180 footfalls / min (or 90 on each
foot)? If significantly less than let, consider a few runs where you
take smaller quicker strides so you are airborne less. See if that

Doing strides is also a good way to address this issue -- that way, you're
implementing changes in a very incremental way.

Quoted message said:

Another suggestion is to run trails and consider running as an adventure
and explore new worlds. Heck, put some walk breaks in there or stop to
watch the ducks on the pond sometimes.

This is an excellent idea. Whether or not you are fortunate enough to have
beautiful scenery available to you, taking walk breaks is a good way to make
the whole experience less stressful.

Luckily, I do run trails most every day. I live near the high desert
and the natural scenery, with views of the city below, keep me going
more than anything else. When I travel and stay in the inner city and
try to run, I just don't know how people who live there can stick with
it. I end up running the treadmill in the hotel and watching TV.

Quoted message said:

Heck, put some walk breaks in there or stop to

Quoted message said:

watch the ducks on the pond sometimes.

This is an excellent idea. Whether or not you are fortunate enough to

have

Quoted message said:

beautiful scenery available to you, taking walk breaks is a good way

to make

Quoted message said:

the whole experience less stressful.

Stress really isn't the problem. To be honest it's more like boredom,
or laziness. Honestly, don't you ever find running to be like mowing
the lawn, where you want the lawn to look good but you're sick of mowing
and you just wish it would be over already? I'm not knocking running,
just wishing I could get more of that euphoric feeling I've gotten 2 or
3 times while running.

When I read in here about people like Doug Freese who run all the time,
I think "how can they do it," in the same way that I wonder how Chinese
women who have to make a living by weaving baskets for 16 hours per day
their whole life can stand it.

Does any of this resonate at all, or do most of you just find running to
be pleasurable most or all of the time? Could upping my mileage rewire
my brain, or was running always naturally inviting to you?

Frank Boettcher said:

This season (2006) I started doing intervals one time per week. I do
400M fast/slow intervals for 2.5 miles and then 200M intervals for 1.5
miles. Fast is about 7:15 for the 400, 6:50 for the 200.

I can't say I really enjoy the intervals, but I have hit PRs in both
5K and 10K this year. They will impact your speed if that is your
goal. But like me, you may not like them at least compared to normal
training runs. And I have been able to add a little distance without
slowing down.

Frank

Well done Frank. I have seen simialr results in many runners that I
have introduced to speedwork over the years (oldies and beginners, slow
runners and elete). You need the base...but speedwork of any
description sharpens you.
Garry

timeOday wrote:

From your original post:

Quoted message said:

I run most of my miles at 9 minutes/mile. Today I ran 1 mile (mile
3 of 4) in 7 minutes and it was all I could do. It was quite
difficult.

Could you carry on a conversation in complete sentences in your 9min/mi
run? Are you gasping in the 7 min/mi runs?

this post:

Quoted message said:

Stress really isn't the problem. To be honest it's more like boredom,
or laziness.

Why do you run? In particular, why did you choose running over, say, mtn
biking or tennis or swimming or card playing or whatever? Health,
recreation, stress relief,...?

Honestly, don't you ever find running to be like mowing

Quoted message said:

the lawn, where you want the lawn to look good but you're sick of mowing
and you just wish it would be over already? I'm not knocking running,
just wishing I could get more of that euphoric feeling I've gotten 2 or
3 times while running.

FWIW, I have a friend whose kids were very athletic in running,
swimming, xc skiing, etc and her husband ran periodically. She started
running as well as using a bike trainer for health and weight loss. But
it was always "exercise" for her. She never enjoyed it and didn't
understand how her husband felt a craving to run or some of the others
of us that just like to run. She tolerated it - at least for several
years. Then one day after several years on intermittent running, she all
of sudden realized she was starting to enjoy it. She's only runs short
distances and only in summer, but she did finally turn a corner.

Quoted message said:

When I read in here about people like Doug Freese who run all the time,
I think "how can they do it," in the same way that I wonder how Chinese
women who have to make a living by weaving baskets for 16 hours per day
their whole life can stand it.

Maybe you have the wrong mental attitude about running? If you only run
because you like the feeling when you stop, ...

Quoted message said:

Does any of this resonate at all,

no

Quoted message said:

or do most of you just find running to
be pleasurable most or all of the time?

yes

Quoted message said:

Could upping my mileage rewire
my brain,

maybe. I'm saying possibly not because I enjoy running, and I'm just now
starting to average about 20mpw. However, if you ran more, it might
become more of a life style.

Quoted message said:

or was running always naturally inviting to you?

mostly yes, although originally only ran a little after work. I got into
it more when I got really stressed at work about 5-6 yr ago, got into
trail running about 4 yr ago, turned over a new leaf in life, and hoping
to run a lot more in the future.

Maybe you're one of those people that need some type of different
activity for recreation or a different approach. Or try some new running
routes or slowing down. Think about why you're running.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope