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"Speed Trap" Interesting book.

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22 August 2006
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steve
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  1. Just finished this book by former coach to Ben Johnson, Charles Francis. It
    has changed my perspective on doping in sports. Francis (and others he
    cites) describes an amature athletics world awash in serreptitious drug use.
    Athletes who want to compete at international levels face the simple choice
    of losing clean, or doping to become/remain competitive. The pressures to
    dope are immense, and the potential awards are seductive. As Francis lays
    it out, the choice to dope doesnt seem like a breach of ethics to the
    athlete, but a practical necessity and, because doping is so common, the
    only way to level (or re-level) the playing field which is already tilted by
    organized, state sponsored, doping programs.

    Perhaps the most interesting aspect of his book is the final chapter where
    he suggests doping should be essentially legalized and mananged to ensure
    the athletes health. He claims that underground doping is poorly and
    dangerously administered due to ignorance and because of the overriding
    necessity to avoid detection. In contrast, a medically supervised doping
    program can be done safely (short and long term) and generally with far
    lower doses than administered in underground programs. He further stresses
    that it isnt the drugs themselves, but the benefits athletes can derive from
    a properly designed combination of drugs and training.

    Finally he hints at (but never confronts) the philosopical question
    underlying the banning of certain drugs and practices. Shoes are not
    natural, spikes less so. A good diet improves performance. Coffee is a
    food, but in excess it delivers an illegal does of a controlled substance.
    At one time, Cyclists ate sheeps testicles to increase testoterone...food or
    drug? Many performance enhancing supplements are legal...CoQ10, Creatine,
    etc... What am I babbling about? The question is, what is the
    philosophical basis for banning some performance enhancing substances and
    not others? What is natural and what isnt? What's a drug and what is food?
    Francis suggests that the test should be the effect on the health of the
    athlete, not the somewhat arbitrary designation of "dope".

    All in all a very interesting read that raises some difficult questions.

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312048777/sr=1-1/qid=1156259670/ref=sr_1_1/002-3205380-8002461?ie=UTF8&s=books

    steve
    --
    "The accused will now make a bogus statement."
    James Joyce

  2. steve said:

    All in all a very interesting read that raises some difficult questions.

    Quoted message said:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312048777/sr=1-1/qid=1156259670/ref=sr_1_1/002-3205380-8002461?ie=UTF8&s=books

    You will now be burned at the stake for the glory and purity of sport,
    and humankind.

    It's the War on People. Casualties must be produced. Over here, and
    stand up straight, would you? --D-y

  3. steve said:

    Just finished this book by former coach to Ben Johnson, Charles Francis. It
    has changed my perspective on doping in sports.

    Interesting, [censored] Pound (yes, THE [censored] Pound) was a defender of Ben
    Johnson way back when.

    http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-41-1409-8966/sports/drugs_sport/clip5

    (Under "Did You Know?"😉

    Quoted message said:

    · Canada was given 10 hours to appeal the Johnson ruling. Canadian IOC member [censored] Pound agreed to
    represent the sprinter. Pound had been told that someone - perhaps a friend of Carl Lewis - had spiked
    Johnson's water bottle in the doping control area. The IOC admitted that crowd control was a problem, and that
    undocumented people were allowed in the doping control area

    Is "undocumented people" a euphemism for "Nazi frogmen?"

    ???????????????????

  4. steve said:

    At one time, Cyclists ate sheeps testicles to increase testoterone...food or
    drug?

    I wonder, was Floyd eating some Rocky Mountain Oysters along with his
    shots & beer before Morzine?

  5. In article <[email hidden]>,

    steve said:

    All in all a very interesting read that raises some difficult questions.

    Luckily I have some easy answers. Stop talking about
    doping, and stop testing for dope. Put the competition
    back on the field and out of the tribunals. Take doping
    out of the public eye. The higher the of level play, the
    more players will seek every advantage on the opposition.
    Nevertheless, the strongest team and individual prevail.
    What's wrong with the picture I draw?

    --
    Michael Press

  6. Michael Press said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    steve said:

    All in all a very interesting read that raises some difficult questions.

    Luckily I have some easy answers. Stop talking about
    doping, and stop testing for dope. Put the competition
    back on the field and out of the tribunals. Take doping
    out of the public eye. The higher the of level play, the
    more players will seek every advantage on the opposition.
    Nevertheless, the strongest team and individual prevail.
    What's wrong with the picture I draw?


    Where are the limits? Would it be permissible shoot other riders, put
    tacks on the road, have teammates crash opposing team leaders?

    The winners won't necessarily be the strongest team or individual but
    those willing to suffer the most chemical abuse and those with the best
    pharmaceutical support and advice. Bike racing should then adopt a F1
    system where both individuals and manufacturers (doping program) are
    given trophies.

    This debate will soon be moot with the advent of gene doping. Then we
    will be able to enjoy the spectacle of 105 kilo riders climbing L'Alpe
    D'Huez in 33 minutes. Soon after, full contact road racing will emerge,
    changing the whole scope of the helmet threads.

    Gabe Brovedani

  7. Michael Press said:

    What's wrong with the picture I draw?

    They need to keep dope testing for the safety of the riders... in fact
    I think the *testing* should increase... but the penalties reduced
    considerably, and the demonization should disappear. Basically make it
    legal within safe and detectable limits... and slap their hand and test
    them more often if they go over.

    The problem with all this doping BS is that 99% of the athletes don't
    really *want* to dope... but the authorities are incapable (and always
    will be) of ensuring that their competitors are *not* doping. The dope
    works... so do you want to play or not? If you give your competitors an
    advantage, then you are pretty much out of the game...

  8. "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    The problem with all this doping BS is that 99% of the athletes don't
    really *want* to dope... but the authorities are incapable (and always
    will be) of ensuring that their competitors are *not* doping. The dope
    works... so do you want to play or not? If you give your competitors an
    advantage, then you are pretty much out of the game...

    That doesn't explain why people dope for weekday training rides.

  9. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Michael Press said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    steve said:

    All in all a very interesting read that raises some difficult questions.

    Luckily I have some easy answers. Stop talking about
    doping, and stop testing for dope. Put the competition
    back on the field and out of the tribunals. Take doping
    out of the public eye. The higher the of level play, the
    more players will seek every advantage on the opposition.
    Nevertheless, the strongest team and individual prevail.
    What's wrong with the picture I draw?

    Well, doping already takes place out of the public eye. ;-) If by your
    suggestions you mean to reduce spectators' exposure to the
    ramifications of these sordid practices, i.e., the airing of the
    sport's dirty laundry, I suspect that would make matters worse.

    After all, the quickest way to induce apathy among a constituency and
    strangle the sport is to, in effect, instill the notion among fans --
    all those voyeuristic virtual participants who pay the freight -- that
    they're not worthy to speak to the problems of the sport they love;
    that they are superfluous to the proceedings. Limiting fans to shutting
    up and showing up for the race will guarantee they won't be fans for
    long.

    Stopping cheating shouldn't come at the cost of diminishing those that
    nurture the enterprise. Let those that cheat be punished; and let the
    process that determines culpability be impartial and transparent.
    That's the kind of picture I'd like to see.

    Luke

  10. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    Gabe Brovedani said:
    Michael Press said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    steve said:

    All in all a very interesting read that raises some difficult questions.

    Luckily I have some easy answers. Stop talking about
    doping, and stop testing for dope. Put the competition
    back on the field and out of the tribunals. Take doping
    out of the public eye. The higher the of level play, the
    more players will seek every advantage on the opposition.
    Nevertheless, the strongest team and individual prevail.
    What's wrong with the picture I draw?


    Where are the limits? Would it be permissible shoot other riders, put
    tacks on the road, have teammates crash opposing team leaders?

    You know how football players say `This is a war'? If they
    meant it they would bomb the opponents locker room. They
    do not, so it appears that they work within limits.

    Quoted message said:

    The winners won't necessarily be the strongest team or individual but
    those willing to suffer the most chemical abuse and those with the best
    pharmaceutical support and advice. Bike racing should then adopt a F1
    system where both individuals and manufacturers (doping program) are
    given trophies.

    Do you know that if a little of some drug helps, that a
    lot of drug helps more? I am not convinced. I still think
    that the best rider wins. That drugs make an uneven
    playing field is a dearly held belief, entirely without
    evidence. Congenital advantages, concentration, and
    training make a great rider. Drugs will not get the job
    done.

    Quoted message said:

    This debate will soon be moot with the advent of gene doping. Then we
    will be able to enjoy the spectacle of 105 kilo riders climbing L'Alpe
    D'Huez in 33 minutes. Soon after, full contact road racing will emerge,
    changing the whole scope of the helmet threads.

    There will always be a place for road racing as we know
    it.

    --
    Michael Press

  11. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Luke said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Michael Press said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    steve said:

    All in all a very interesting read that raises some difficult questions.

    Luckily I have some easy answers. Stop talking about
    doping, and stop testing for dope. Put the competition
    back on the field and out of the tribunals. Take doping
    out of the public eye. The higher the of level play, the
    more players will seek every advantage on the opposition.
    Nevertheless, the strongest team and individual prevail.
    What's wrong with the picture I draw?

    Well, doping already takes place out of the public eye. ;-) If by your
    suggestions you mean to reduce spectators' exposure to the
    ramifications of these sordid practices, i.e., the airing of the
    sport's dirty laundry, I suspect that would make matters worse.

    After all, the quickest way to induce apathy among a constituency and
    strangle the sport is to, in effect, instill the notion among fans --
    all those voyeuristic virtual participants who pay the freight -- that
    they're not worthy to speak to the problems of the sport they love;
    that they are superfluous to the proceedings. Limiting fans to shutting
    up and showing up for the race will guarantee they won't be fans for
    long.

    Stopping cheating shouldn't come at the cost of diminishing those that
    nurture the enterprise. Let those that cheat be punished; and let the
    process that determines culpability be impartial and transparent.
    That's the kind of picture I'd like to see.

    I suggest that relentless, strident diatribes are
    counter-productive. Some people do not want to know; so
    leave them alone already, they only parrot what they are
    told, which helps not at all. Those who care enough to
    work it out on there own are the people best equipped to
    deal with doping.

    --
    Michael Press

  12. I'm waiting for h squared's autobiography: "Speed Tap".

  13. Luke a écrit :

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    Michael Press said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    steve said:

    All in all a very interesting read that raises some difficult questions.


    Luckily I have some easy answers. Stop talking about
    doping, and stop testing for dope. Put the competition
    back on the field and out of the tribunals. Take doping
    out of the public eye. The higher the of level play, the
    more players will seek every advantage on the opposition.
    Nevertheless, the strongest team and individual prevail.
    What's wrong with the picture I draw?

    Well, doping already takes place out of the public eye. ;-) If by your
    suggestions you mean to reduce spectators' exposure to the
    ramifications of these sordid practices, i.e., the airing of the
    sport's dirty laundry, I suspect that would make matters worse.

    After all, the quickest way to induce apathy among a constituency and
    strangle the sport is to, in effect, instill the notion among fans --
    all those voyeuristic virtual participants who pay the freight -- that
    they're not worthy to speak to the problems of the sport they love;
    that they are superfluous to the proceedings. Limiting fans to shutting
    up and showing up for the race will guarantee they won't be fans for
    long.

    Stopping cheating shouldn't come at the cost of diminishing those that
    nurture the enterprise. Let those that cheat be punished; and let the
    process that determines culpability be impartial and transparent.
    That's the kind of picture I'd like to see.

    Luke


    Once you abandon the jargon ("performance enhancing drugs"😉 and deal
    exclusively with _cheating_ you can make more sense of the problem. A
    body that endures a 3-week tour is in constant need of recuperation,
    some of which may involve prohibited means. A body that trains more
    than 15 hours of week may have similar yet lower needs. Maintaining
    health is not cheating.

    On the other hand, public scandalmongering could become a sport to itself.

    --

    Sandy
    Verneuil-sur-Seine FR
    *****
    "Manners are of more importance than laws... Manners are what vex or soothe,
    corrupt or purify, exalt or debase, barbarize or refine us, by a constant,
    steady, uniform, insensible operation, like that of the air we breathe in."
    Burke, E.

  14. Quoted message said:

    Just finished this book by former coach to Ben Johnson, Charles Francis. It
    has changed my perspective on doping in sports. Francis (and others he
    cites) describes an amature athletics world awash in serreptitious drug use.

    [...]

    I've read pieces by Francis before and they convince me he is a crook
    who is desperate for attention and desperate to have people believe
    everyone is as crooked as he is so it's OK. He should just be allowed
    to sink into obscurity.

    --
    ciao,
    Bruce

    drift wave turbulence: http://www.rzg.mpg.de/~bds/

  15. in message <[email hidden]>,

    Michael Press (') said:

    Do you know that if a little of some drug helps, that a
    lot of drug helps more? I am not convinced. I still think
    that the best rider wins. That drugs make an uneven
    playing field is a dearly held belief, entirely without
    evidence. Congenital advantages, concentration, and
    training make a great rider. Drugs will not get the job
    done.

    What he says.

    You have to be very tough and very focussed to win a mountain stage.
    Drugs may help, but they won't give you that toughness or focus. You
    could pour the entire pharmaceutical output of the western world into me
    and I still wouldn't win a stage.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
    Copyright (c) Simon Brooke; All rights reserved. Permission is
    granted to transfer this message via UUCP or NNTP and to store it
    for the purpose of archiving or further transfer. Permission is
    explicitly denied to use this message as part of a 'Web Forum', or
    to transfer it by HTTP.

  16. On 22-Aug-2006, smacked up and reeling, Michael Press <[email hidden]> blindly
    formulated
    the following incoherence:

    Quoted message said:

    Luckily I have some easy answers. Stop talking about
    doping, and stop testing for dope. Put the competition
    back on the field and out of the tribunals. Take doping
    out of the public eye. The higher the of level play, the
    more players will seek every advantage on the opposition.
    Nevertheless, the strongest team and individual prevail.
    What's wrong with the picture I draw?

    In the case of pro-sports, it's just a function of market forces. People
    seem not too unhappy to put up with dopers (or to remain ignorant about
    them) in Baseball and football, but certainly not happy about it in cycling
    and many other sports. As it is a market problem, let the players in the
    market find a solution. If controlled doping is acceptable to the consumers
    of the sport, let it be. If not, let the organizations work their own
    solutions or face lower profits. The treatment of Basso, Ulrich, etc. by
    thier own teams indicates that doping will not be tolerated by the sponsers.
    In a sense the summary dismissal of Ulrich seems an injustice, but, in
    fact, he is not in a position of holding some right to retain his job and
    compete. As much as it pains me, I think this is a positive thing for the
    sport in the long run.

    As for the world of "amatuer" sports...olympics and all that...that "market"
    trades in political currency. That makes the problem all the more difficult
    to solve...to define, even. Frankly, I think state sponsored sports is just
    a bad idea. There is plenty of sport out there without govts getting
    involved, and no moral reason why they should take coercively collected tax
    dollars to fund what is essentially entertainment. Let private
    organizations deal with doping as they will...allow, control,
    prohibit...whatever, and get govt out of sports entirely.

    steve
    --
    "The accused will now make a bogus statement."
    James Joyce

  17. In article <o5OGg.20406$yO4.16724@dukeread02>,

    Carl Sundquist said:

    "Ron Ruff" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    The problem with all this doping BS is that 99% of the athletes don't
    really *want* to dope... but the authorities are incapable (and always
    will be) of ensuring that their competitors are *not* doping. The dope
    works... so do you want to play or not? If you give your competitors an
    advantage, then you are pretty much out of the game...

    That doesn't explain why people dope for weekday training rides.

    I'd suggest that far greater than 90% of fatties don't dope for their
    weekday training rides.

    I mean, seriously, I can understand that there might be people who do
    that, for much the same reason as people cheat at friendly games of
    cards, but then some people take crystal meth as a way to get through
    their day. I have no explanation for that, either (well, I do, but who
    wants to hear me say "ghettos promote bad life choices; gentrification
    is the answer"?)

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
    to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

  18. In article <[email hidden]>,

    MMan said:
    steve said:

    Just finished this book by former coach to Ben Johnson, Charles Francis.
    It
    has changed my perspective on doping in sports.

    Interesting, [censored] Pound (yes, THE [censored] Pound) was a defender of Ben
    Johnson way back when.

    http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-41-1409-8966/sports/drugs sport/clip5

    (Under "Did You Know?"😉

    Quoted message said:

    · Canada was given 10 hours to appeal the Johnson ruling. Canadian IOC
    member [censored] Pound agreed to
    represent the sprinter. Pound had been told that someone - perhaps a friend
    of Carl Lewis - had spiked
    Johnson's water bottle in the doping control area. The IOC admitted that
    crowd control was a problem, and that
    undocumented people were allowed in the doping control area

    Is "undocumented people" a euphemism for "Nazi frogmen?"

    ???????????????????

    Well, I think it was Francis that claimed that the weird thing about Ben
    Johnson's positive was that stanolozol was just about the only steroid
    he wasn't on.

    I'm not shocked Pound would have represented Johnson. He was an IOC
    member, a countryman, and a lawyer. The third one means that he
    understands the idea of being an advocate for the seemingly doomed and
    guilty. The fact that he is now head of WADA means he really, really
    hates doping. The fact that he is also prone to under-supported
    statements and rash conclusions in public means that he is dangerously
    close to becoming Sen. Eugene McCarthy: the worst possible proponent of
    a noble cause.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
    "I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
    to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

  19. In article <[email hidden]>,

    steve said:

    On 22-Aug-2006, smacked up and reeling, Michael Press <[email hidden]> blindly
    formulated
    the following incoherence:

    Quoted message said:

    Luckily I have some easy answers. Stop talking about
    doping, and stop testing for dope. Put the competition
    back on the field and out of the tribunals. Take doping
    out of the public eye. The higher the of level play, the
    more players will seek every advantage on the opposition.
    Nevertheless, the strongest team and individual prevail.
    What's wrong with the picture I draw?

    In the case of pro-sports, it's just a function of market forces. People
    seem not too unhappy to put up with dopers (or to remain ignorant about
    them) in Baseball and football, but certainly not happy about it in cycling
    and many other sports. As it is a market problem, let the players in the
    market find a solution. If controlled doping is acceptable to the consumers
    of the sport, let it be. If not, let the organizations work their own
    solutions or face lower profits. The treatment of Basso, Ulrich, etc. by
    thier own teams indicates that doping will not be tolerated by the sponsers.
    In a sense the summary dismissal of Ulrich seems an injustice, but, in
    fact, he is not in a position of holding some right to retain his job and
    compete. As much as it pains me, I think this is a positive thing for the
    sport in the long run.

    Baseball handed out many drug suspensions, most to minor
    league players, and none to stars (unless he committed a
    felony).

    Quoted message said:

    As for the world of "amatuer" sports...olympics and all that...that "market"
    trades in political currency. That makes the problem all the more difficult
    to solve...to define, even. Frankly, I think state sponsored sports is just
    a bad idea. There is plenty of sport out there without govts getting
    involved, and no moral reason why they should take coercively collected tax
    dollars to fund what is essentially entertainment. Let private
    organizations deal with doping as they will...allow, control,
    prohibit...whatever, and get govt out of sports entirely.

    You still think of it as a problem, and I do not. What
    problem has not been cooked up by the sport's governing
    bodies?

    Junior athletes? We eat our young. Nothing has changed.
    Some parents know how to instill self-discipline and
    nurture self-respect. Drugs automatically become a
    non-problem. Other parents insist that the student athlete
    succeed.

    --
    Michael Press

  20. I am so glad to see someone else in this group that is not an
    anti-doping zealot !

    Pro football linemen have almost doubled in size over the last fifty
    years. I don't think that happened without drugs. And basically pro
    football fans don't care.

    And as a bicycle racing fan, I really don't care about doping either.
    Yet I see the sport almost being destroyed by the anti-doping zealots.
    The priemier event has been disgraced first by eliminating some of the
    competitors with nothing but accusations and then villifying the
    eventual winner.

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