Speed training: treadmill vs. track.

"eNo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Other than the profound boredom that treadmills produce,
can anyone list some disadvantages to treadmill speed
traning? For example, does benefit
#1 turn into a disadvantage on road racing, where one
#doesn't have
mechanical pace enforcement?

I do speedwork on the treadmill. Sure, nothing beats the
real thing, but let me tell you that a workout such as this:

(2min 12mph ---> 3min 8mph) x 8; 3km up, 3km down

...which is a regular speedwork session on the treadmill for
me, is very, very hard. In fact, I would agree with you that
there are actual benefits to using the treadmill for speed:

1. less wear on body = faster recovery = speedwork done
more often.

2. unchanging pace = no slowing down OR speeding up... I
have ruined more that one outdoor speedwork session by
going to fast in the first rep or two. Everyone has.

3. good form - this is a personal belief, but I find that
when I'm running very fast on the treadmill I have to run
quite smoothly, or the pounding and shaking is ridiculous
(I'm at a public gym). This makes me always aware of how
softly I am running (or not), particularly as I get more
and more fatigued and my form breaks down. Outside, this
is much less obvious.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

In article said:

[Disclaimer: "speed" here is a genereously relative term.]

Since I have no convenient access to a local track, I do
all my speed training on a treadmill. Beyond convenience,
the treadmill offers me two advantages:

1) It keeps pace constant--no slacking allowed (*if* you
can count on it an accurate treadmill).

2) It avoids the curves/turns and the possible injuries
that can result from them.

3) I said "two advantages," didn't I? 😉

Other than the profound boredom that treadmills produce,
can anyone list some disadvantages to treadmill speed
traning? For example, does benefit
#1 turn into a disadvantage on road racing, where one
#doesn't have
mechanical pace enforcement?

If you don't have a choice, the treadmill is a pretty tough
workout, and works quite well. IMO, it's the next best thing
to the track itself, it enjoys similar advantages -- it's a
tough workout where pace can be measured accurately and
mercilessly. I don't see boredom as a problem with that sort
of workout -- the track is similarly uniform and stark. The
same monotony that makes a daily run terribly boring is an
asset for a demanding, structured speed session.

As you point out, it's not going to help you very much with
your pacing. I think you'd have to be going pretty quickly
for the curves to be a substantial injury risk on a full
length track. I don't really feel the effect of the turn
kick in until I'm at about 80 seconds per lap or so.

The only disadvantages I can think of are

(1) that the speed is a bit limited on some of them -- the
precor models only go up to 10mph. The way to get around
this is to use the incline to add to intensity.
(2) initially, it's a bit disconcerting running hard and
fast on the treadmill. You really don't want to screw up
at a 5:30 pace. But I found myself able to adapt to
this, and it wasn't bad after a while.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote: ...

Quoted message said:

(2) initially, it's a bit disconcerting running hard and
fast on the treadmill. You really don't want to screw
up at a 5:30 pace. But I found myself able to adapt to
this, and it wasn't bad after a while.

i've always wondered: how do you slow down from that
pace? or what do you do if you suddenly decide that you
need to stop?

thanks jobs

In article said:

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote: ...

Quoted message said:

(2) initially, it's a bit disconcerting running hard and
fast on the treadmill. You really don't want to screw
up at a 5:30 pace. But I found myself able to adapt
to this, and it wasn't bad after a while.

i've always wondered: how do you slow down from that pace?

The treadmill belt accelerates gradually. So you slow down
with the treadmill.

It can be a bit of a shock speeding up the first time
though. I usually do an ascending "warmup" consisting of
short runs at 9mph (6:40 pace) and 10mph
(6:00 pace) before going at full speed.

Quoted message said:

or what do you do if you suddenly decide that you need
to stop?

You try not to make such decisions. If you need to do so,
there's a big red stop button that you can hit, or you can
just press the "slow down" arrow.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote: ...

Quoted message said:

(2) initially, it's a bit disconcerting running hard and
fast on the treadmill. You really don't want to screw
up at a 5:30 pace. But I found myself able to adapt to
this, and it wasn't bad after a while.

i've always wondered: how do you slow down from that
pace? or what do you do if you suddenly decide that you
need to stop?

I usually get a "running start" by starting at a slower pace
for 0.2 miles or so, then setting the "fast" interval speed.
As for stopping, there's the stop button. At my gymn, the
treadmills also have a strap you can connect to your
clothing: the strap's other end is a magnet attached to the
treadmill; when it comes off, the treadmill stops. It's a
safety feature I never use. I much rather splat against the
back wall if I fly off the treadmill 😉.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

"eNo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Other than the profound boredom that treadmills produce,
can anyone list some disadvantages to treadmill speed
traning? For example, does benefit
#1 turn into a disadvantage on road racing, where one
#doesn't have
mechanical pace enforcement?

The main problem I'd have is that speedwork for me is
entirely based on effort and feel (the threshold point).

When I do repeats, I want to hit the threshold, and keep it
right there. Just a few seconds per mile either way will
wreck the workout for me. Some reps it's faster than others.
Typically, I fine-tune my speed during the repitition: if I
feel my legs starting to load up, I'll back off just a bit.
If I'm under the red-line, I accelerate just a bit to keep
myself right on the redline.

Ideally, when peaking, I get a bit faster week by week. I
don't know how much faster until I'm running. This can't
be predicted by dialing up a speed on the machine -- it
just *is*.

The fixed speed thing takes all the fun out of it, and makes
it harder for me to do what I want to do in a speed workout.

Disclaimier: I live in L.A, where it's dry 335 days/year,
and ice free 365 days/year. Sometimes, you gotta do what you
gotta do...

--Dan

The treadmill is also a very good running means to listen to
your fav running tracks without the risk of distractions
like cars and small children and dogs etc..

Dan Stumpus said:

"eNo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:cyn8c.13$6J1.12@dfw-
service2.ext.ray.com...

Quoted message said:

Other than the profound boredom that treadmills produce,
can anyone list some disadvantages to treadmill speed
traning? For example, does benefit
#1 turn into a disadvantage on road racing, where one
#doesn't have
mechanical pace enforcement?

The main problem I'd have is that speedwork for me is
entirely based on effort and feel (the threshold point).

When I do repeats, I want to hit the threshold, and keep
it right there.

Just out of curiosity, how do you locate this "threshold" by
effort and feel? How do you know, particularly during the
1st interval, that you aren't going too hard, hard enough to
ruin the rest of your workout? Typically, speed training
involves a pre-determined pace derived from 5K/10K (race)
timing. Just wondering, because it sounds different than
everything I've heard and read re: speed training and
intervals.

Quoted message said:

Just a few seconds per mile either way will wreck the
workout for me. Some reps it's faster than others.

So you're okay with having to slow down on, say, your last 2
intervals? BTW, this can also be done on the treadmill.
Typically, though, I play it safe on the first 2-3
intervals, forcing myself to run at my pre-planned pace, no
matter how good I'm feeling. If I'm still feeling that good
on the penultimate interval, I'll crank it up slightly on
the last two intervals.

Quoted message said:

Typically, I fine-tune my speed during the repitition: if
I feel my legs starting to load up, I'll back off just a
bit. If I'm under the red-line, I accelerate just a bit to
keep myself right on the redline.

Ideally, when peaking, I get a bit faster week by week. I
don't know how much faster until I'm running. This can't
be predicted by dialing up a speed on the machine -- it
just *is*.

Well, as I said, the machine dial isn't set in stone. You
can vary it. I do concede that it's easier to "run by feel"
outdoors, making tiny adjustments on the fly, almost
automatically, rather than reaching forward for the dial. In
my case, however, this usually tends to mean I slow down,
and seldom that I speed up, so the treadmill keeps me honest
when I'm pushing it.

Quoted message said:

The fixed speed thing takes all the fun out of it, and
makes it harder for me to do what I want to do in a speed
workout.

Disclaimier: I live in L.A, where it's dry 335 days/year,
and ice free 365 days/year. Sometimes, you gotta do what
you gotta do...

Now you're making me feel guilty 😉. I live in L.A., too,
but do must of my weekly running at 5:00 am, and avoid
running around darkened streets at the mercy of drowsy, where's-my-
donut drivers, so off to the gymn I go.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

"eNo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When I do repeats, I want to hit the threshold, and keep
it right there.

Just out of curiosity, how do you locate this "threshold"
by effort and feel? How do you know, particularly during
the 1st interval, that you aren't going too hard, hard
enough to ruin the rest of your workout?

It's simple, actually. Say you're running a 440. If you bog
down at the end, or your legs start burning, or have to slow
down, or your form deteriorates, or you start straining, you
went too fast. You want to be as smooth at the end as you
were at the beginning.

If you were to continue this pace for longer than 440, you
*would* tie up. That's why that magic pace differs for
every distance.

If you run at this effort, you will be able to do the entire
workout strongly, provided that the total speed distance of
the workout doesn't exceed 4 - 5% of your weekly average
mileage. This is important: I only did 2.5 - 3 miles of
speed in my twice weekly speed workouts when I was running
over 90 mpw. Typically, 10 x 440, or 5 x 880, or 3 x 1.

This effort doesn't really hurt, but it is fast, hard, and
requires total concentration. I also ran an untapered 5k or
10k on Saturdays as my hard tempo run.

Quoted message said:

Typically, speed training involves a pre-determined pace
derived from 5K/10K (race) timing. Just wondering,
because it sounds different than everything I've heard
and read re: speed training and intervals.

Actually, for me it's just the opposite -- the progression
of your speedwork will predict your race times -- you work
forward from your speedwork to your races. You want to reach
your potential, and you don't know what that is until you
start peaking (during your 4 - 6 weeks of speed).

I learned this from Marty Liquori's "Guide for the Elite
Runner". (He was 3rd in the world in the 5000). That book
got me from a 2:44 marathon to a
2:37, and the training was actually *easier*, because it was
so much smarter.

After a while, you can predict your performances from your
track work (assuming a given base mileage). For example, if
I could run 10 x 440 in 71 avg, I knew I was in 33 and
change 10k shape.

Quoted message said:

So you're okay with having to slow down on, say, your last
2 intervals?

There's no point forcing the pace when your legs are loading
up, unless you are a sprinter.

Quoted message said:

BTW, this can also be done on the treadmill. Typically,
though, I play it safe on the first 2-3 intervals, forcing
myself to run at my pre-planned pace, no matter how good
I'm feeling. If I'm still feeling that good on the
penultimate interval, I'll crank it up slightly on the
last two intervals.

Sounds sensible. (Did you mean to say anti-penultimate?) My
only problem is that you don't know what the best pace for
you to run is until you start running...

You nudge, not bludgeon, the lactate threshold back over a
period of weeks. If you run too hard (which is quite
unpleasant), you actually impair the muscle adaptations you
need. As Ingrid Kristiansen says: run too hard, and you get
too much smoke in the engine room.

Quoted message said:

Now you're making me feel guilty 😉. I live in L.A., too,
but do must of my weekly running at 5:00 am, and avoid
running around darkened streets at the mercy of drowsy,
where's-my-donut drivers, so off to the gymn I go.

I used to run intervals in the dark on the Redondo Beach
High track, or on the Strand in Manhattan Beach where they
had measurements painted on the pavement.

I was retired from racing for 15 years, did some ultras, and
now want to get back into shape for road races. My goal is
to get to the same wava % (81) at age 52 that I was at 32.
What's yours?

Regards,

Dan

Dan Stumpus said:

I was retired from racing for 15 years, did some ultras,
and now want to get back into shape for road races. My
goal is to get to the same wava % (81) at age 52 that I
was at 32. What's yours?

To stay healthy and improve where I can. I already know I'm
never gonna set the world on fire, so I just want to enjoy
my running.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

An exceedingly well adjusted 'eNo said:

[my goal is] To stay healthy and improve where I can. I
already know I'm

never gonna

Quoted message said:

set the world on fire, so I just want to enjoy my running.

Well, I don't recall ever being written up in Sports
Illustrated, either...

When I quit racing (after 25-30 races/year for years), I
went Zen. Heck, I was even well-adjusted and moderate. Tons
of easy running on the trails with slower runners for years.

Then I entered a race 2 years ago on a lark and got my but
kicked. End of Zen mode...

Regards,

Dan

eNo wrote in 2 different posts:

Quoted message said:

Since I have no convenient access to a local track, I do
all my speed training on a treadmill.

...

Quoted message said:

Typically, speed training involves a pre-determined pace
derived from 5K/10K (race) timing. Just wondering,
because it sounds different than everything I've heard
and read re: speed training and intervals.

Distance measurements aren't needed for some types of speed
training. Some different approaches to harder workouts are
outlined in pponline.co.uk0966b.htmOpen ↗
(article begins on previous page, but wanted to emphasize
the list of workouts) In the printed versions in RRN June-
July 2002, he includes intervals like you're doing as the
5th workout and a few other variations. He ranks long
workouts 8th there and tempo runs 9th.

Note that most of these workouts are based on effort, rather
than pace. Some other programs have you do workouts relative
to LT - again based on effort. A more general approach to
training rather than pace is to target various systems in
each workout. That is, running faster involves faster leg
turnover, better aerobic capacity (higher VO2max and LT).
Different workouts will help improve these different aspects
- in a way that running at race pace won't since the work
sessions will be at higher effort levels. The beauty of this
type of training is that you don't need measured distances
and it applies to all sports and terrains. You run or bike
or ski or whatever for x minutes with y recovery, etc. You
can even include hills. Longer recoveries are associated
with higher intensity work sessions.

Dan gave you a good description of exactly how he does
it. This is just a more general big picture. FWIW,
almost all the reading I do uses an effort-based
approach, since it works really well for trail running
(I know you're on roads).

Regarding your original question regarding treadmill vs
track, depending upon what type of surface the track is, the
treadmill may provide less impact but may not provide as
much strengthening on joints, etc. (this was in an article I
passed over tonight)

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

I dont know. Nothing thrills the spirit like fartleks in a
wide open meadow on sunny spring day. A machine indoors is
so BORING.

rick++ said:

I dont know. Nothing thrills the spirit like fartleks in a
wide open meadow on sunny spring day. A machine indoors is
so BORING.

Amen!

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

"Dot" <dot.h@#att.net> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

rick++ said:

I dont know. Nothing thrills the spirit like fartleks in
a wide open meadow on sunny spring day. A machine
indoors is so BORING.

Amen!

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd
Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Along the idea of your sig line (one of my favorites), some
people's priorities in running are based on not how
interesting, fun, or thrilling each run is or can be.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org "The most
insecure people are the ones you see, putting other people
down constantly."

This is exactly my specialty. I take people your age and
make them win races. I prove to them that they can still run
fast if they really want to. What you will need to do is get
a coach or join a running group.

I would say that I have probably one of the most elite
training systems in the entire world for your age group
but not everyone wants to do it because they think that
they just can't do it.

I have to admit that Brian Maxwell's death does scare me
and makes me think about whether I should be pushing
these guys at this age harder than even 20 year olds
workout. But the good news is that no one in my group
has died yet though some people have complained that
they can't even walk after some of my workouts. Yes, I
do give good depletions but when you recover you become
even faster.

eNo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<P3L8c.11$cn3.8@dfw-
service2.ext.ray.com>...

Quoted message said:

Dan Stumpus said:

I was retired from racing for 15 years, did some ultras,
and now want to get back into shape for road races. My
goal is to get to the same wava % (81) at age 52 that I
was at 32. What's yours?

To stay healthy and improve where I can. I already know
I'm never gonna set the world on fire, so I just want to
enjoy my running.

Our local HS tracks almost always have kids on them... why
aren't they home playing video games like normal kids🙂 so
a couple months ago I started doing them on the treadmill.
I noramlly stick with 10x800 at just above 6:00 pace. The
first couple are kinda spooky running that fast but after
that it's okay. I normally do the first one or two a little
slower for that reason. I also pause the TV during the
interval (I have a PVR) so as not to have any distraction.
Also great for hill repeats. Saves a lot of time in not
having to drive to the track and I am also doing them more
regular. There is much less impact so I recover faster. It
seems to corrolate to pretty much the same as the track, I
ran my 800's on a track several weeks ago and the times
were pretty much the same. You should have a quality
treadmill to do these.

This has been my secret training weapon so don't tell
anyone. Have a big race coming up next month an we'll see
how it goes.

eNo <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<cyn8c.13$6J1.12@dfw-
service2.ext.ray.com>...

Quoted message said:

[Disclaimer: "speed" here is a genereously relative term.]

Since I have no convenient access to a local track, I do
all my speed training on a treadmill. Beyond convenience,
the treadmill offers me two advantages:

1) It keeps pace constant--no slacking allowed (*if* you
can count on it an accurate treadmill).

2) It avoids the curves/turns and the possible injuries
that can result from them.

3) I said "two advantages," didn't I? 😉

Other than the profound boredom that treadmills produce,
can anyone list some disadvantages to treadmill speed
traning? For example, does benefit
#1 turn into a disadvantage on road racing, where one
#doesn't have
mechanical pace enforcement?