Speed Session

Quoted message said:

Went to the track for my first speed session this morning.

Warm up/down included 3km cycle to/from track.

8 x 400m (110, 96, 99, 101, 103, 107, 103, 105) on 4 min interval.

Too much rest. Aim for about 1 minute recovery jog between reps. To do this,
you'll need to start every 200m and jog across the infield on the recovery.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Went to the track for my first speed session this morning.

Warm up/down included 3km cycle to/from track.

8 x 400m (110, 96, 99, 101, 103, 107, 103, 105) on 4 min interval.

Too much rest.

I'm not sure I agree. This was his/her first trip to the track and
entrance to speed work. I would think some weeks with the longer rest
cycle better and after some pace acclimation, dove tail into shorter
rest.

-DougF

Quoted message said:

Went to the track for my first speed session this morning.

Warm up/down included 3km cycle to/from track.

8 x 400m (110, 96, 99, 101, 103, 107, 103, 105) on 4 min interval.

I am currently running 20+ miles per week (7 to 10k per run) at an av
9:40 pace (pace variation maybe between 9 and 10)

What is the best way for me to progress these sessions to improve my
strength and speed.

Do you have a specific reason for the 8 x 400m? Do you have a goal race
in mind?

--
Phil M.

Doug Freese said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Went to the track for my first speed session this morning.

Warm up/down included 3km cycle to/from track.

8 x 400m (110, 96, 99, 101, 103, 107, 103, 105) on 4 min interval.

Too much rest.

I'm not sure I agree. This was his/her first trip to the track and
entrance to speed work. I would think some weeks with the longer rest
cycle better and after some pace acclimation, dove tail into shorter
rest.

I'd say instead slow the reps down so that they're comfortable even with the
short rest. As long as they're somewhat faster than training pace, that's a
good starting point. In his case, I'd recommend about 120s with short rests.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Went to the track for my first speed session this morning.

Warm up/down included 3km cycle to/from track.

8 x 400m (110, 96, 99, 101, 103, 107, 103, 105) on 4 min interval.

I am currently running 20+ miles per week (7 to 10k per run) at an av
9:40 pace (pace variation maybe between 9 and 10)

What is the best way for me to progress these sessions to improve my
strength and speed.

Do you mean 4 minutes recovery, or starting the 400m run every 4
minutes?

I'll second Doug's comment that while getting introduced to
speed and the track, more recovery is a good idea. When you
get towards miler training (what 400's are typically aimed at)
you'll be cutting the rest to be equal duration to the run,
and then down, even, to more like half duration. But that's
not a good way to get introduced to speed without injury.

If you're looking at speed for 5k-10k racing, you'll want longer
speed stretches -- repeating 800m to 2000 m. But I think it's a
good idea to introduce yourself, and the legs, to speed on shorter
things first. Next time out at the track, I'd try for the 400's
on consistently the same pace. As you'd expect for a first time
out, you have a lot of variation. Maybe something like 102 each,
close to what you averaged, but now try to keep it +- 2 seconds.
Find that good, efficient stride for carrying this much higher
speed than your usual jog. Then go up in distance.

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Robert Grumbine said:

I'll second Doug's comment that while getting introduced to
speed and the track, more recovery is a good idea. When you
get towards miler training (what 400's are typically aimed at)
you'll be cutting the rest to be equal duration to the run,
and then down, even, to more like half duration. But that's
not a good way to get introduced to speed without injury.

Longer rests have the advantage of making the workout more
comfortable -- possibly good for beginners because first and
foremost, it's important that they are able to finish the workout
without crashing and burning.

But I doubt that a shorter rest period is going to cause injury.
In fact I think that going ballistic on very short reps is probably
the best way to get injured fast, and the "going ballistic" part is
more likely to happen with long recoveries. Having said that, I
don't think he'll get hurt by doing 8x400 once a week.

Quoted message said:

If you're looking at speed for 5k-10k racing, you'll want longer
speed stretches -- repeating 800m to 2000 m. But I think it's a
good idea to introduce yourself, and the legs, to speed on shorter
things first. Next time out at the track, I'd try for the 400's
on consistently the same pace. As you'd expect for a first time
out, you have a lot of variation. Maybe something like 102 each,
close to what you averaged, but now try to keep it +- 2 seconds.
Find that good, efficient stride for carrying this much higher
speed than your usual jog. Then go up in distance.

Yep, it's all about maintaining a steady pace throughout the workout.
One gets a pretty good feel for this after doign the workout a few
times.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Thanks for the replys guys.

The 4 min included run and recovery. For the next few times out I was
going to use the same format ( for easy timing ) but just try to do
more reps maybe getting up to 16 reps? and see what the time settles
down to, I certainly could not at this point jog in between at this
speed, however I did like the speed 🙂

Maybe then I can start increasing the interval distances

I want to also build up my strength, especially after a bad ankle
accident skiing in Feb.

Quoted message said:

Thanks for the replys guys.

The 4 min included run and recovery. For the next few times out I was
going to use the same format ( for easy timing )

If it's including recovery, it's OK.

Quoted message said:

but just try to do more reps maybe getting up to 16 reps?

16 reps is probably a bit much. A good rule of thumb Dan proposed is a max of
20 minutes worth of reps -- so for you, that's an upper limit of 12. I'd
actually recommend slightly less than this upper limit -- for your pace, a
total distance of 4000m is about right -- 10x400, 5x800, or 4x1000.

But for now, I think your best bet would be to first work at 8 reps with
jog recovery, then move to longer reps.

Quoted message said:

and see what the time settles down to, I certainly could not at this point
jog in between at this speed,

That's OK, the purpose of the workout is to build endurance, not run as fast
as possible. If you do the recovery jog slowly (should be at least 1mpm slower
than training pace), you will still be able to hold a good pace on the reps.

Quoted message said:

however I did like the speed 🙂
Maybe then I can start increasing the interval distances

I want to also build up my strength, especially after a bad ankle
accident skiing in Feb.

I don't think intervals will help a whole lot with this. See a physio.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

20 mpw is pretty low mileage to be doing speedwork, IMHO.

What distances are you training for? If it is 5K or up, I would suggest
longer workouts like tempo runs moreso than 400s

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Quoted message said:

Went to the track for my first speed session this morning.

Warm up/down included 3km cycle to/from track.

8 x 400m (110, 96, 99, 101, 103, 107, 103, 105) on 4 min interval.

I am currently running 20+ miles per week (7 to 10k per run) at an av
9:40 pace (pace variation maybe between 9 and 10)

What is the best way for me to progress these sessions to improve my
strength and speed.

I am running 4 or 5 times a week (between 7 and 12k) , my ankle injury
has been a big limiter on me this year, its been very slow to get to
this stage (20+ mpw). But I also swim (4 to 6 km per week), bike (100+
km per week) and do some weights.

Last year I was running further up to 30 mpw, but I was always felt
very sluggish (heavy legs) on my runs, and on the bike, and my speed
did not increase, I think it was just too much for me. This year I
will try not going much further than now, except for an increasing long
run and improving the quality of my runs, hence also adding speed
session.

So far this year I have enjoyed my runs much more, I am fighting
fatigue less, and beginning to improve speed, I think.

I am not racing, but my target is to keep improving in each sport, get
the balance right and enjoy. I am perhaps becoming a bit obsessed
since I started keeping my log over a year ago, but it does help me
plan and see progress or non progress.

Next time out on the speed session I shall try Donovan's suggestion and
cut the rest make the rest more active by jogging, it'll be interesting
to see the difference this makes to the 400 times.

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<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am running 4 or 5 times a week (between 7 and 12k) , my ankle injury
has been a big limiter on me this year, its been very slow to get to
this stage (20+ mpw). But I also swim (4 to 6 km per week), bike (100+
km per week) and do some weights.

Last year I was running further up to 30 mpw, but I was always felt
very sluggish (heavy legs) on my runs, and on the bike, and my speed
did not increase, I think it was just too much for me. This year I
will try not going much further than now, except for an increasing long
run and improving the quality of my runs, hence also adding speed
session.

So far this year I have enjoyed my runs much more, I am fighting
fatigue less, and beginning to improve speed, I think.

It sounds like you're getting in a good enough volume of cross-training. For
me, biking constitutes my easy and recovery days except for the occasional
session to develop leg strength. This helps keep the legs fresh enough to do
long runs. Obviously if you're not racing, there's no *need* to do speedwork
per se, but if your goal is to be a very well-rounded athlete then why not.

Most in this group probably have more specific goals in mind before doing
speedwork because you can't sustain speedwork year round or you'll burn out.
Speedwork brings your fitness to a peak and then it naturally drops off
after a few months. For general athletic well-rounded-ness you might
consider a sport, like soccer, instead of formal speedwork training.

Another alternative to formal speedwork is the Fartlek (speedplay) running
session, in which you allow your speed to vary according to how you feel.
This can take any form you want, with long steady 10k paced running mixed
with faster stuff if you wish. I even walk some after doing more intense
300m pickups. You can have fun and avoid burnout more easily because you can
do what your body feels like that day.

-Tony

Tony (remove) said:

[email hidden] wrote in message
<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I am running 4 or 5 times a week (between 7 and 12k) , my ankle injury
has been a big limiter on me this year, its been very slow to get to
this stage (20+ mpw). But I also swim (4 to 6 km per week), bike (100+
km per week) and do some weights.

Last year I was running further up to 30 mpw, but I was always felt
very sluggish (heavy legs) on my runs, and on the bike, and my speed
did not increase, I think it was just too much for me. This year I
will try not going much further than now, except for an increasing long
run and improving the quality of my runs, hence also adding speed
session.

So far this year I have enjoyed my runs much more, I am fighting
fatigue less, and beginning to improve speed, I think.

It sounds like you're getting in a good enough volume of cross-training. For
me, biking constitutes my easy and recovery days except for the occasional
session to develop leg strength. This helps keep the legs fresh enough to do
long runs. Obviously if you're not racing, there's no *need* to do speedwork
per se, but if your goal is to be a very well-rounded athlete then why not.

Most in this group probably have more specific goals in mind before doing
speedwork because you can't sustain speedwork year round or you'll burn out.
Speedwork brings your fitness to a peak and then it naturally drops off
after a few months. For general athletic well-rounded-ness you might
consider a sport, like soccer, instead of formal speedwork training.

My training is very informal, and each day review my plan for the next
few days as it often changes daily. With a family it is mostly
organised so that I maximise my time eg run in morning, commute on
bike, swim and weights at lunch time. Sometimes I manage all on the
same day, if I know the next day will be forced rest due to work, but I
will cut down on the intensity. I do periodisation, not by planning,
but due to the seasons and my changing interests. I enjoyed the speed
session and will progress with this for a while.

My office has a football and hockey team playing in leagues, but again
due to my ankle and knee (same leg same accident) which I did not
mention as the running (in a straight line), cycling and freestyle do
not affect it, but maybe next season.

Quoted message said:

Another alternative to formal speedwork is the Fartlek (speedplay) running
session, in which you allow your speed to vary according to how you feel.
This can take any form you want, with long steady 10k paced running mixed
with faster stuff if you wish. I even walk some after doing more intense
300m pickups. You can have fun and avoid burnout more easily because you can
do what your body feels like that day.

-Tony

I was really into running during college 8 years ago, but some how I
took the next 5 years off. I have really started to get back into
running the last 3 years and Im now running 2 -3 times a week. I found
this online running log site http://www.runoutside.com, and I have been
keeping my runs and other workouts there.

I find that mixing in some sprint workouts really breaks up some of the
longer runs. Plus if you can find a running buddy, it really helps.

I was really into running during college 8 years ago, but some how I
took the next 5 years off. I have really started to get back into
running the last 3 years and Im now running 2 -3 times a week. I found
this online running log site http://www.runoutside.com, and I have been
keeping my runs and other workouts there.

I find that mixing in some sprint workouts really breaks up some of the
longer runs. Plus if you can find a running buddy, it really helps.

Miss Anne,

That's possibly the most constructive posting you've ever made.

8^)