Speed checking on Perth bike path

BruceA said:

I noticed at the weekend that there are rubber strips across the freeway
bike path just near the Sea Scouts building. They are double strips so I
assume they are for measuring speed.
There are three sets of them, one just before the path curves around to the
cement wall (heading south), one by the cement wall, and one just after the
cement wall (I think).
Does anyone know what could be going on here? I do remember another post
earlier about a cyclist death occurring here when two groups were passing,
so I am guessing it has something to do with this?
Makes me wonder, will we be seeing "speed limit 10 km\h" signs going up here
soon, like the ones by the Old Swan Brewery?

BruceA (who was Bjay until someone else started using this moniker!)

Those signs crack me up. We have them on the Goodwill Bridge in
Brisbane. It seems bad enough for cyclists, until you realise that most
runners have to slow down as well!

Tam

BruceA said:

Does anyone know what could be going on here? I do remember another post
earlier about a cyclist death occurring here when two groups were passing,
so I am guessing it has something to do with this?
Makes me wonder, will we be seeing "speed limit 10 km\h" signs going up here
soon, like the ones by the Old Swan Brewery?

Arhh great.. speed limits on bike paths. something else that I will
brake on the bike and cost me money.. Think they'll take people's bikes
off them and force them to drive if they go 30km/h over? 😉

Seriously though, speed limits would be a good thing to protect people
on the paths.. and more importantly protect riders from psycho dogs (and
their canines).. there are a few quickish blind corners on the Eastern
Fwy trail in Melb that cause issues.. and it will force me back onto the
road, or maybe even to build a fixie, I hear they are slow :P...

:r_ns away:

GPL

Tamyka Bell said:

Those signs crack me up. We have them on the Goodwill
Bridge in Brisbane. It seems bad enough for cyclists,
until you realise that most runners have to slow down as well!

They've recently put "cyclist speed limit 5km/h" signs at the toll plaza on the M2 here in Sydney. I have difficulty riding that slow even when I want to. It does provide the opportunity (at least on the eastern bound side) of doing ten times the speed limit though 🙂

Regards,

Suzy

There was something on the UWA BUG recently about a warning that they would put *cameras* on the bike path in kings park, *and did*.

Ive never heard that they could use those rubber strips for speed-testing, just to see which way the traffic numbers came.

till

"BruceA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noticed at the weekend that there are rubber strips across the freeway
bike path just near the Sea Scouts building. They are double strips so I
assume they are for measuring speed.
There are three sets of them, one just before the path curves around to
the cement wall (heading south), one by the cement wall, and one just
after the cement wall (I think).
Does anyone know what could be going on here? I do remember another post
earlier about a cyclist death occurring here when two groups were passing,
so I am guessing it has something to do with this?
Makes me wonder, will we be seeing "speed limit 10 km\h" signs going up
here soon, like the ones by the Old Swan Brewery?

The strips are usually used for traffic counting, not speed. It's odd that
there's more than one set of them though - is there an intersection in there
somewhere that could be measuring traffic on and off the path? (otherwise,
it could be for speed!)

GPLama said:

Arhh great.. speed limits on bike paths. something else that I will
brake on the bike and cost me money.. Think they'll take people's bikes
off them and force them to drive if they go 30km/h over? 😉

The general consensus at the vicroads run workshop on 'cyclist/pedestrian conflict' that i attended on Thursday seemed to be that any such thing will never work as you cant have the resources to police it (said by the attending police). It was pretty clear path design was the best solution.

GPLama said:

Seriously though, speed limits would be a good thing to protect people
on the paths.. and more importantly protect riders from psycho dogs (and
their canines).. there are a few quickish blind corners on the Eastern
Fwy trail in Melb that cause issues.. and it will force me back onto the
road, or maybe even to build a fixie, I hear they are slow :P...
:r_ns away:
GPL

boy, how sensitive are you to dogs? ya big woooos! 😄

GPLama said:

and it will force me back onto the
road, or maybe even to build a fixie, I hear they are slow :P...
GPL

perhaps for people who cant <lowblow> fix a flat </lowblow> LOL 😄

F"arff, arff"Dutch

till! said:

There was something on the UWA BUG recently about a warning that they
would put *cameras* on the bike path in kings park, *and did*.

Where exactly is it? Sounds like a more interesting one to add to my fixed
speed camera list... :-)

Quoted message said:

Ive never heard that they could use those rubber strips for
speed-testing, just to see which way the traffic numbers came.

It can (and is) done, but might not be *highly* accurate. But they might
allow a fudge factor of another 15Km/h or so.
This method is mostly used for statistical purposes, and for that, it's a
cheap and easy way to do it.

However, there is nothing in legislation to allow for "speeding" on bike
paths, because "bike paths" are not roads (which *are* covered for speeding).
So, even if they correctly identify you for "speeding", they most certainly
CANNOT do anything about it other than ask you to leave the path and use the
road. If you continue using the path anyway, they can only ask you again, and
again, and again...

Any speed signs posted on bike paths are suggestions only. Much like parking
lot speed limits, bag checking at shops, buying your own food and eating it in
a Greater Union cinema etc.

As always, don't trust anything you read on usenet, and check with your local
lawer...
--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <http://counter.li.org>

Gemma_k said:

"BruceA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noticed at the weekend that there are rubber strips across the freeway
bike path just near the Sea Scouts building. They are double strips so I
assume they are for measuring speed.
There are three sets of them, one just before the path curves around to
the cement wall (heading south), one by the cement wall, and one just
after the cement wall (I think).
Does anyone know what could be going on here? I do remember another post
earlier about a cyclist death occurring here when two groups were passing,
so I am guessing it has something to do with this?
Makes me wonder, will we be seeing "speed limit 10 km\h" signs going up
here soon, like the ones by the Old Swan Brewery?

The strips are usually used for traffic counting, not speed. It's odd that
there's more than one set of them though - is there an intersection in there
somewhere that could be measuring traffic on and off the path? (otherwise,
it could be for speed!)

They were used years ago (early 1980s) for measuring vehicle speed and booking drivers. In at least NSW and the ACT if I recall.

SteveA

On Mon, 11 Apr 2005 at 09:19 GMT, John Tserkezis (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

However, there is nothing in legislation to allow for "speeding" on bike
paths, because "bike paths" are not roads (which *are* covered for speeding).
So, even if they correctly identify you for "speeding", they most certainly
CANNOT do anything about it other than ask you to leave the path and use the
road. If you continue using the path anyway, they can only ask you again, and
again, and again...

"Stop, or I shall be forced to ask you to stop again!".

--
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
Center meeting at 4pm in 3C-273.

"BruceA" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I noticed at the weekend that there are rubber strips across the
freeway bike path just near the Sea Scouts building. They are double
strips so I assume they are for measuring speed.
There are three sets of them, one just before the path curves around
to the cement wall (heading south), one by the cement wall, and one
just after the cement wall (I think).
Does anyone know what could be going on here? I do remember another
post earlier about a cyclist death occurring here when two groups were
passing, so I am guessing it has something to do with this?
Makes me wonder, will we be seeing "speed limit 10 km\h" signs going
up here soon, like the ones by the Old Swan Brewery?

BruceA (who was Bjay until someone else started using this moniker!)

Strips or tubes?

If tubes then they are pneumatic sensor tubes for a traffic classifier.
They are used to derive vehicle numbers, type and speed. IF they are
installed correctly (and accurately) then they are generally better than
the speed cameras/lidars in terms of accuracy. They are often used to
calibrate these. Generally in 12 to 25,000 counts you will get up to 10
flyers. Anymore and one of your tubes was bubkiss.

They do all this by counting the time between strikes on both tubes, A
followed by B, (speed) and the time between strikes on the first tube
(axle spacing). They can be confused by similtaneous strikes (if I ever
find the driver of a Type 2 roadtrain who can get 130km/h out of it in a
surban street I'd like to shake his hand)

But all of this depends on knowing which way traffic is running. They
are much less accurate when setup to count both directions at once.

I would think it was hard to pick which direction traffic was going to
come from on a bike path but I have done it and the data was reasonable.

Cheers

Brett, Craig, Gavin etc

SteveA <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

They were used years ago (early 1980s) for measuring vehicle speed and
booking drivers. In at least NSW and the ACT if I recall.

SteveA

Similar system very different electronics.

Cheers

Brett, Gavin, Craig etc

"Gemma_k" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

"BruceA" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noticed at the weekend that there are rubber strips across the
freeway bike path just near the Sea Scouts building. They are double
strips so I assume they are for measuring speed.
There are three sets of them, one just before the path curves around
to the cement wall (heading south), one by the cement wall, and one
just after the cement wall (I think).
Does anyone know what could be going on here? I do remember another
post earlier about a cyclist death occurring here when two groups
were passing, so I am guessing it has something to do with this?
Makes me wonder, will we be seeing "speed limit 10 km\h" signs going
up here soon, like the ones by the Old Swan Brewery?

The strips are usually used for traffic counting, not speed. It's odd
that there's more than one set of them though - is there an
intersection in there somewhere that could be measuring traffic on and
off the path? (otherwise, it could be for speed!)

Almost every count done these days includes speed (and classification).
Single tube counters are very rarely used.

Most of your speed limits come from the data collected with these things
(20k pace and 85th%ile speed)

Cheers

Brett

"Brett(?????)" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Gemma_k" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Almost every count done these days includes speed (and classification).
Single tube counters are very rarely used.

Speed is not recorded in SA as far as I'm aware, only vehicle classification
using the pnuemo tubes. Which don't work too well on Bicycle/Shared use
paths - they're done with some fancy electronics and an induction loop cut
in a special shape which can detect bike vs supermarket trolley vs pusher
AND determine direction etc.
Most traffic counts are now done in urban areas on arterial roads through
the traffic loops (and guess what then doesn't get counted - Bikes!), pnuemo
loops reserved for the back streets.

Quoted message said:

Most of your speed limits come from the data collected with these things
(20k pace and 85th%ile speed)

Maybe 20yrs ago!

Gemma

"flyingdutch" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

perhaps for people who cant <lowblow> fix a flat </lowblow> LOL 😄

F"arff, arff"Dutch

hahaha, I knew someone would take the bait! 😉...

:offtopic:
Fun night tonight.. I take a tram into the city after work to catch a
comedy show, someone od's on the tram and they have to call 000 (at which
point I get up and walk to my destination).. then while waiting for my mates
I am confronted by two <politically correct> original inhabitants
</politically correct> fighting on the road almost being hit by
cars/bikes/etc!.. I forgot how desensitised working in the city makes you..

cheers,
GPL
:what me call 000 for a junkie? arh I should have kept doing psych at uni..
re diffusion of responsibility:

BruceA said:

I noticed at the weekend that there are rubber strips across the freeway
bike path just near the Sea Scouts building. They are double strips so I
assume they are for measuring speed.
There are three sets of them, one just before the path curves around to the
cement wall (heading south), one by the cement wall, and one just after the
cement wall (I think).
Does anyone know what could be going on here? I do remember another post
earlier about a cyclist death occurring here when two groups were passing,
so I am guessing it has something to do with this?

They weren't there on Thursday afternoon. (First time past there in 9
months.)

There wasn't a death there, but a guy is now a quadraplegic after a
collision. Apparently it was just two bikes, not two bunches as first
reported. If the tree on the corner was removed, visibility would be
much better.

Quoted message said:

Makes me wonder, will we be seeing "speed limit 10 km\h" signs going up here
soon, like the ones by the Old Swan Brewery?

Wow, there's a 'speed limit' at the brewery? Recently I've only ever
been along that stretch in the Papas bunch. (On the road at 55+km/h!)

IMO, speed limits are just a cover for poor design.

--
Brett"Pedestrians should walk barefoot on the grass"S

John Tserkezis said:

However, there is nothing in legislation to allow for "speeding" on bike
paths, because "bike paths" are not roads.

Are you sure about that? Roads are usually defined by the authority that
has power over land titles, such as the Dept of Lands. They can define
anything to be a road if they want. We have a few bike paths here in
Mackay that are roads.

--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA

Peter McCallum said:

Are you sure about that? Roads are usually defined by the authority that
has power over land titles, such as the Dept of Lands. They can define
anything to be a road if they want. We have a few bike paths here in
Mackay that are roads.

I should have been a little clearer.

In NSW:

Bicycle paths that are marked and _part_ of an existing road (a painted line
on the road) are still part of the "road" and legislated as such.
These types of paths are suitable for bicycles, scooters, grannymobiles,
pedestrians, motorcycles, cars, trucks, 4WDs and road trains all travelling at
the fastest speed they possibly can. Running over any other vehicle/pedestrian
smaller than they are is encouraged, but an otherwise "unwritten" rule.

Dedicated bicycle paths, or shared pedestrian/bike paths are not legislated
as "roads". Motorised scooters, cars, trucks, 4WDs, road trains etc cannot
travel on these paths, _UNLESS_ it's less than 50 meters distance, and it's the
only way for them to get to their specific destination.
Again, running over any other vehicle/pedestrian smaller than they are is
encouraged, but otherwise an unwritten rule. A special addition is that
pedestrians are allowed to travel in groups, the full width or wider than the
path, blocking access to other vehicles, or if they are lone pedestrians, they
are encouraged to wander around randomly into the path of other
vehicles/pedestrians. Again, an encouraged but otherwise unwritten rule.

Hope that clears things up. :-)
--
Linux Registered User # 302622 <http://counter.li.org>

John Tserkezis said:

Peter McCallum said:

Are you sure about that? Roads are usually defined by the authority that
has power over land titles, such as the Dept of Lands. They can define
anything to be a road if they want. We have a few bike paths here in
Mackay that are roads.

I should have been a little clearer.

In NSW:

Bicycle paths that are marked and _part_ of an existing road (a painted
line on the road) are still part of the "road" and legislated as such.
These types of paths are suitable for bicycles, scooters, grannymobiles,
pedestrians, motorcycles, cars, trucks, 4WDs and road trains all
travelling at the fastest speed they possibly can. Running over any other
vehicle/pedestrian smaller than they are is encouraged, but an otherwise
"unwritten" rule.

Dedicated bicycle paths, or shared pedestrian/bike paths are not
legislated as "roads". Motorised scooters, cars, trucks, 4WDs, road
trains etc cannot travel on these paths, _UNLESS_ it's less than 50 meters
distance, and it's the only way for them to get to their specific
destination. Again, running over any other vehicle/pedestrian smaller than
they are is encouraged, but otherwise an unwritten rule. A special
addition is that pedestrians are allowed to travel in groups, the full
width or wider than the path, blocking access to other vehicles, or if
they are lone pedestrians, they are encouraged to wander around randomly
into the path of other vehicles/pedestrians. Again, an encouraged but
otherwise unwritten rule.

Hope that clears things up. :-)

LOL
--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA

"John Tserkezis" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Dedicated bicycle paths, or shared pedestrian/bike paths are not
legislated as "roads".

A road in WA is the area within the road reserve. i.e., all of the
space between the fence lines. Would include bike paths and footpaths
alongside of the paved area of the road reserve commonly referred to
by the public, (but not the law) as the 'road'.

Theo