SPD Agony!

Artemisia said:

Also, clipping and unclipping is a chore. I thought it would get
easier. But it can take me several minutes to clip

That is extremely odd. It takes less than a second for me to clip in the
right foot when stationary, and a few seconds to clip in the left once
moving.

and unclipping can

Quoted message said:

be even longer. The fact of having to press down into the core of the
pain to twist the feet off the pedals is part of it.

To unclip, you should just need to twist the foot. Again, I can unclip
both feet in half a second.
If you need to push the shoe down to unclip, it suggests that something
on the show is catching the pedal, which also suggests the cleat is
incorrectly positioned.

What happens if you take the shoe off, and put it on your hand, and clip
it in, and unclip it. Can you see something obviously catching.

Martin.

Quoted message said:

To unclip, you should just need to twist the foot. Again, I can unclip
both feet in half a second.
If you need to push the shoe down to unclip, it suggests that something on
the show is catching the pedal, which also suggests the cleat is
incorrectly positioned.

What happens if you take the shoe off, and put it on your hand, and clip
it in, and unclip it. Can you see something obviously catching.

Martin.

Another possibility is that the cleats are loose. That happened to me once.
I kept twisting my foot and the cleat would turn at the same time.

Also, I found by trial and error that my left foot tends to point slightly
outward and the right foot wants to point straight ahead. I kept trying to
make my foot point straight ahead and instead wound up with knee pain. The
doc pointed out that ever since I tore my ACL I cannot expect my knee to
behave as it used to. So, now, I make sure my feet point wherever they want
to---and it helps that the cleats/pedals have enough "float" to let the foot
move around some.

On May 6, 11:37 am, Artemisia <[email hidden]> wrote
a rather long post about foot pain that included the statements-
1- "I'm using Specialized BG
Comp mountain biking shoes in the appropriate size."
and
2- "Also, clipping and unclipping is a chore. I thought it would get
easier. But it can take me several minutes to clip and unclipping can
be even longer. The fact of having to press down into the core of the
pain to twist the feet off the pedals is part of it."

As for #1, based on your description of how they feel they sure don't
seem to be the "appropriate" size. Buy new shoes.
As for #2, have you checked your cleats for damage and adjusted the
tension screws on the pedals? While some downward force might be
applied, unclipping from SPDs doesn't *require* any. It's a simple
twist of the foot.

Regards,
Bob Hunt

Mark T said:

Artemisia writtificated

Quoted message said:

Is this normal? Is it something "you just get used to"?

Sounds like the shoes are too small. I would divert to the nearest bike
shop that stocks shoes and buy another pair.

Many people have to go a size up to get a shoe that fits, so it is
essential you try them on before buying.

When wearing the shoes they should not be tight and the toes should not
touch the front of the shoe. I always get shoes where I can wiggle my toes
a little.[...]

Too tight shoes are even more of a problem on a recumbent with the
bottom bracket at or above seat level. I have a pair of Shimano ATB
shoes which are a little narrow. These shoes are fine on the ATB and the
low bottom bracket recumbent, but cause pain and a burning feeling when
used on a higher bottom bracket recumbent.

One alternative to clipless pedals are heel slings, but I am not aware
of these being commercially available at this time - please post links
if available.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

aka Jobst Brandt said:

[...]
Hot foot increases with age as circulation to extremities diminishes.
If susceptible, making sure the foot rises (or fully unloads) the sole
intermittently while pedaling to increase circulation.

A very expensive solution:
<http://www.powercranks.com/products/powercranks_xlite.htm>. 😉

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

"Artemisia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Two days into my trail and I discover the limit is coming from an
unexpected place - unbelievably painful feet. I'm using Specialized BG
Comp mountain biking shoes in the appropriate size. When I put them on
in the morning, they are already not comfortable shoes, stiff and
grating over the toes, but as the day wears on they turn into Chinese
torture.

They sound like shoes that actually aren't the correct size but are too
small. As others have suggested, an insole can help, but your shoes sound
too small already... I use a Sorbothane insert on my road shoes and find it
helps, but from the sound of your shoes - I doubt you'd get an insole and
foot in your shoes.

Plus play around with cleat position.

wafflycat' w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com said:

They sound like shoes that actually aren't the correct size but are too
small. As others have suggested, an insole can help, but your shoes
sound too small already... I use a Sorbothane insert on my road shoes
and find it helps, but from the sound of your shoes - I doubt you'd get > an insole and foot in your shoes.

Plus play around with cleat position.

Hotfoot is agony when it strikes. You need to get as much ventilation
to the feet as you can. The temporary solution is to remove your socks
and have the shoes done up as loosely as possible. Never mind
pedalling efficiency, at this point it's a question of survival,
especially for a diabetic. You should be aware that you should never
wear tight shoes of any kind.

As Jobst says, pulling on the upstroke will relieve the constant
pressure on the sole. If the shoes are grating over the toes then they
are simply the wrong fit and they are no good for that rider.

The long term solution which I'm surprised no-one has mentioned yet
may be SPD sandals. Many long distance riders swear by them.

You've really got to admire Artemisia's persistance against many
setbacks, but a diabetic with severe foot pain should seriously
consider abandoning the tour.

--
Dave...

Pete Biggs said:

It should never be painful to unclip.

I think Artemisia's clipping/unclipping problem is that her feet have
got so sensitive that she cannot press down with sufficient force to
clip in.

Artimisia, you do not have to press down to clip out. Just twist the
foot. As for the clipping in, this will be relieved if you set the
tension on your SPDs to the minimum, but if your feet are that
sensitive, you are having circulation problems, and you are diabetic,
is it really a good idea to carry on with the tour? Apart from the
misery of being in pain you could be setting yourself up for serious
long term health problems. My advise is to get these problems sorted
out, then try again another time.

--
Dave...

(Alan Braggins) said:

Most SPD shoes have two pairs of holes in a plate which can be moved
forward and back at least a little bit.

I went back to the hotel room to check. After prying away all the
caked mud with the multi-tool, I did indeed find two sets of holes
underneath. I moved the cleats onto the lower pair. We'll see
tomorrow, short ride, if that makes any difference.

Specialized sell a pair of inner soles/arch supports that are supposed
to mitigate foot burn. On every trip, there is always one essential
thing that one omits to bring. This time, since I was already using
some Scholl orthotics for my plantar fascitis, I decided that a second
pair of insoles would be redundant. I'm an idiot! The Scholls are only
useful for walking, and I think the BG insoles could have helped with
this problem.

I do have a pair of normal shoes with me. I'm afraid to use them on
the trike. I'm finding this is quite a hassle, having shoes that can
only walk but not bike, and other shoes that can only bike and not
walk!

EFR
After a wonderful dinner on Isle sur Sorgue

Artemisia said:

Two days into my trail and I discover the limit is coming from an
unexpected place - unbelievably painful feet. I'm using Specialized BG
Comp mountain biking shoes in the appropriate size.

But are they an appropriate shape? Different manufacturers use
different lasts and all are slightly different shapes, to account for
the variation of human feet. You need to try as many different shoes as
you can to ensure that you have shoes built on a last that corresponds
to your own feet. Also different sizes mean slightly different things
to different manufacturers, sometimes even to the same manufacturer on
different lines: I take a 10 in leather Teva sandals, a 9 in plastic
Teva sandals. My fell shoes are 2E 8.5 New Balance, same as road shoes
from the same make, but the fell shoes are tighter on me. And so on.

Quoted message said:

iWhen I put them on
in the morning, they are already not comfortable shoes, stiff and
grating over the toes

What makes you think these are an appropriate size (or shape) if they're
grating your toes before you get on the bike? The stiffness is actually
an aid to pedalling once you're on the bike, but there should be no
grating of your toes.

Quoted message said:

, but as the day wears on they turn into Chinese
torture. This is on a recumbent tadpole trike where the use of SPDs is
required as a safety measure (to prevent running over one's own leg,
which I nearly did the other day).

Well... no, not "required". You wouldn't have to go too far to find
someone using one with normal pedals, though personally I would
/recommend/ them.

Quoted message said:

I tried putting a wad of kleenex between the lining of the shoe and
the SPD clip. That improved matters slightly, but I still cannot go
more than about 10km without the most agonizing pain. And the pain
lasts for about half an hour even after I have taken the shoes off.

As others have suggested, it sounds like the cleat is in the wrong
place. You should be able to move it by loosening the cleats and
sliding the mounting plate inside the shoe. Take the insole out to do
that more easily.

Quoted message said:

Also, clipping and unclipping is a chore. I thought it would get
easier. But it can take me several minutes to clip and unclipping can
be even longer. The fact of having to press down into the core of the
pain to twist the feet off the pedals is part of it.

This reinforces the suspicion that the cleat is in the wrong place. It
should be a second or two at most to get either in or out. Time ATAC
pedals are, IME, slightly easier to get into as you engage along a line
rather than at a point, but there's not that much in it.

Quoted message said:

Is this normal? Is it something "you just get used to"?

No. Cycling shoes are not overly comfortable to walk in, but they
should be comfortable to pedal in or to stand in. Yours aren't even
comfortable to stand in, so I suspect you bought the wrong thing for
you. Also, it sounds like the cleat is in the wrong place, and this
needs a bit of fiddling to get right. By "a bit of fiddling" I mean 10
minutes trial and error on and off the bike, nudging them about until
they feel right. Start with the cleat as far back as it will go and
gradually push them forward, lock them at the right position.

Another piece of advice, do running-in trials of new kit close to home,
by which I mean round your block a few times.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On May 7, 6:32 am, "wafflycat" <w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com> wrote:
The long term solution which I'm surprised no-one has mentioned yet
may be SPD sandals. Many long distance riders swear by them.

I'd second this. On long rides my sandals are infinitely better than my
shoes (and being British, when it's chilly, I can wear socks 🙂.

One other point I'd come back on, I can't wear Specialized shoes, and whilst
I do like most Spec BG kit, they're not at all right for my feet and cause
me all sorts of problems, maybe because my feet are very narrow - most
Shimano boots and, possibly indicatively, the cheap shoes from Lidl are
better for me.

Best of luck.

pOB

In news:[email hidden],
dkahn400 <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

The long term solution which I'm surprised no-one has mentioned yet
may be SPD sandals. Many long distance riders swear by them.

And some of them swear *at* them. Perhaps I've just got odd-shaped plates,
but the only time I tried 'em, my feet were dead after 5km. This is a bit
of a bind when there are still 300 to go :-(

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
My liver is evil, and must be punished.

In news:[email hidden],
Artemisia <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

Also, clipping and unclipping is a chore. I thought it would get
easier. But it can take me several minutes to clip and unclipping can
be even longer. The fact of having to press down into the core of the
pain to twist the feet off the pedals is part of it.

Is this normal?

In my not-at-all-extensive experience of using SPDs, yes, this is entirely
normal. Well, the clipping-in bit anyway. *Nasty* things.

Also, Spesh's so-called "Body Geometry" stuffs are modelled on a body
almost, but not quite, entirely unlike mine. I had a pair of such shoes
once and suffered similar agonies until I bit the bullet, swallowed the
expense and bought a pair of Carnacs.

--
Dave Larrington
<http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk>
Confirmed LOOK user.

Artemisia said:

I do have a pair of normal shoes with me. I'm afraid to use them on
the trike. I'm finding this is quite a hassle, having shoes that can
only walk but not bike, and other shoes that can only bike and not
walk!

It's not impossible to use SPuD pedals with normal shoes, especially
those with an extended platform.

And it /should/ be okay to walk moderate distances in tour/MTB style
cycle shoes (to the extent where I don't bother taking spare shoes on
tour with me). If you can't walk any distance at all without serious
discomfort then they're just the wrong shoes, I would say.

As with other respondents here, I very much favour SPuD sandals, but one
thing to note is that on a 'bent you'll have a lot more weight than most
folk on the rear strap. Roos had a bit of achilles trouble from that
the first time she had them on a long tour.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Dave Larrington said:

In my not-at-all-extensive experience of using SPDs, yes, this is entirely
normal. Well, the clipping-in bit anyway. *Nasty* things.

Note: I suspect Mr. L is complaining about the specific implementation
of the Shimano Pedalling Dynamics (SPD) system, *not* clipless pedals in
general.

Personally I prefer Time ATACs to SPuDs, and I know other regulars on
urc also favour them. Crank Eggbeaters aslo have an enthusiastic
following. The Look system is popular with performance cyclists, but
getting shoes that take the cleats and enable you to walk easily as well
is problematical. ATAC cleats will fit pretty well any shoe that takes
SPuDs. What SPuDs have that these other systems don't is ubiquity, with
many people equating "SPD" and "clipless pedal system". I've not seen
any persuasive argument that they're in any way better than the rest of
the market they dominate.

Quoted message said:

Also, Spesh's so-called "Body Geometry" stuffs are modelled on a body
almost, but not quite, entirely unlike mine.

Haven't tried their shoes since they changed to BG, but the BG saddles
seem to be made up to fit backsides almost, but not quite, entirely
unlike mine.

Quoted message said:

I had a pair of such shoes
once and suffered similar agonies until I bit the bullet, swallowed the
expense and bought a pair of Carnacs.

You just have to try everything you can. My last shoes were pre-BG
Speccies, which I thought were okay but when they eventually died I
found Diadoras suited me better.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoting Artemisia <[email hidden]>:

Quoted message said:

Two days into my trail and I discover the limit is coming from an
unexpected place - unbelievably painful feet.

IIRC you're on a recumbent trike? Suggest abandoning the clips and tying
your feet to the pedals to avoid leg suck - obviously if you're just
strapping them down, you can strap them down in a different position.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> Distortion Field!
Today is First Sunday, May - a weekend.

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In news:[email hidden],
Artemisia <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

Also, clipping and unclipping is a chore. I thought it would get
easier. But it can take me several minutes to clip and unclipping can
be even longer. The fact of having to press down into the core of the
pain to twist the feet off the pedals is part of it.

Is this normal?

In my not-at-all-extensive experience of using SPDs, yes, this is entirely
normal. Well, the clipping-in bit anyway. *Nasty* things.

Must admit, I can't get on with spds. Look pedals/cleats are the ones for
me.

wafflycat w*a*ff£y£cat*@£btco*nn£ect.com said:

"Dave Larrington" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In news:[email hidden],
Artemisia <[email hidden]> tweaked the Babbage-Engine to tell us:

Quoted message said:

Also, clipping and unclipping is a chore. I thought it would get
easier. But it can take me several minutes to clip and unclipping can
be even longer. The fact of having to press down into the core of the
pain to twist the feet off the pedals is part of it.

Is this normal?

In my not-at-all-extensive experience of using SPDs, yes, this is entirely
normal. Well, the clipping-in bit anyway. *Nasty* things.

Must admit, I can't get on with spds. Look pedals/cleats are the ones for
me.

i've recently got some SPD peddles to go with the specilised shoes i've
had for a while and the old 10 speed racer.

my knees have never been great far too much yomping down scree slopes as
a lad. so needed the springs set too very loose and seems to work fine
just now and then they require further stamping to connect but steping
out is fine, even on monday when i struck the pedal on the ground, had
forgotten road bikes are so low...

no damadge done bar minor dent to pride!

roger
--
www.rogermerriman.com

In article said:

I do have a pair of normal shoes with me. I'm afraid to use them on
the trike.

You could consider changing to traditional toeclips with straps, but
I have a suspicion that just doing up a strap tight enough that a foot
in a recumbent riding position can't possibly fall out will be painfully
restrictive given your current problems. Maybe someone with actual
experience can comment - it might still be better than going on as
you are.
(If you nailed traditional cleats to the bottom of your shoes as well,
then the traditional clips and straps would be more secure, but then
they wouldn't be normal shoes for walking in any more. Assuming they
are the sort of shoe you could nail things to the sole in the first place,
which they probably aren't)

The usual downside of the traditional system is that it's harder to get
out of when done up tight than clipless pedals (you have to reach down
and loosen the strap first), but since you are on a trike, you won't fall
over if you can't put a foot down (which is a good thing, given the problems
you are having with the clipless pedals - but that isn't normal).

Or try something like these: http://powergrips.mrpbike.com/pg_benefits.shtml

But, as other people have said, properly fitting SPD shoes with recessed
cleats shouldn't cause the problems you describe and it should be possible
to walk in them.

In article said:

you. Also, it sounds like the cleat is in the wrong place, and this
needs a bit of fiddling to get right. By "a bit of fiddling" I mean 10
minutes trial and error on and off the bike, nudging them about until
they feel right. Start with the cleat as far back as it will go and
gradually push them forward, lock them at the right position.

But do remember that every time you nudge them, you do have to do them up
tight enough that you can unclip without wrenching them out of position
when you try them on the pedals.
This is probably so obvious to Pete that it went without saying, and
maybe is to you as well, but I mention it just in case, because it's
quite embarrassing when you forget. I mean, um, so I hear....