UK and Europe · Public discussion

Sorry, hemlets again

Started by burt · · Last activity · 103 posts · 2,312 views

This thread is locked and is currently read-only.

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
UK and Europe
Published
15 July 2004
Last activity
21 July 2004
Original author
burt
Posts
103
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
2,312
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 103
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Another letter in the Evening Post about cycle helmets, reproduced below,
    with my response after. If anyone else feels like writing to the editor for
    publishing on their letters page, feel free.

    http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144961&command=newPage

    11:00 - 15 July 2004 The other day I was driving through Winterbourne and
    noticed children taking their cycling proficiency test. I was shocked to see
    that some of the children were not wearing safety helmets.

    I asked one of the helpers why this was so and they seemed taken aback and
    said the children had left their helmets at home.

    My grandson has just taken the same test at his school; he was not allowed
    to take the test without a helmet.

    I deplore the stupidity of the school in question in allowing their pupils
    to take the test without the right attire.

    My grandson, since passing his test, is allowed to ride his bicycle to
    school - but only if he wears a helmet.

    Surely the school in question should be ashamed of not teaching its pupils
    the need to be safe on the roads.

    I am glad my grandson does not got to a school where safety of the children
    is not paramount.

    I did think of writing to the school but I hope teachers read this letter
    and take the appropriate action.

    Jean Hodges, Kingswood.

    Dear Sir,

    Jean Hodges of Kingswood may have been shocked to see children taking their
    cycle proficiency test without "safety helmets" but she obviously doesn't
    know that they are purely decorative, as they certainly don't improve
    safety. Nowhere in the world which has introduced mandatory helmets has
    been able to demonstrate any improvement in the safety of cyclists. In
    Alberta, where they introduced a law for children, the death and injury rate
    doubled.

    A great deal of nonsense is talked about the effectiveness of cycle helmets,
    much of it spouted by the Bicycle Helmet Initiative Trust (BHIT) which has
    been behind three attempts to introduce a law. Unfortunately BHIT are not
    renowned for their honesty, and they still claim that cycle helmets prevent
    85% of head injuries, a statement which is no longer even supported by the
    people whose research it was based on. Incidentally, we are all helping
    BHIT to publish their misinformation, as they receive funding from the
    taxpayer.

    All long term, large scale research into the effects of cycle helmets has
    come to the same conclusion: there is no demonstrable safety benefit, and
    some even show an increase in deaths and injuries. They also show that
    helmet laws reduce the number of people getting healthy exercise. Is it
    just coincidence that the levels of obesity in Australia have doubled since
    they introduced mandatory helmets?

    It is estimated that over 50,000 people a year in this country die
    prematurely because they don't get enough exercise, but the government has
    stated that it does not know of a single case where a cycle helmet has saved
    a life. Anything which is likely to stop people taking regular exercise
    should be considered very carefully, and if, as in the case with cycle
    helmets, there is no demonstrable benefit and massive harm, why should
    anyone insist that they be worn?

    Almost all children who are killed whilst riding a bike are struck by a
    motor vehicle, and cycle helmets are useless in those circumstances. The
    manufacturers don't make that claim, but this has not stopped BHIT from
    saying that they will protect you. If the manufacturers did so, they could
    be challenged under the advertising laws, but because BHIT do not make
    helmets, they can say what they like, whether it is true or not.

    Jean's attitude is prevalent amongst drivers: "because I cause danger to
    other people, they should be made to wear protection", rather than the
    drivers taking responsibility for the danger they cause.

    Those kids would be a lot safer if you drove less Jean, never mind wearing
    useless helmets.

    Richard Burton

    --
    cheers

    Rich

  2. In article <[email hidden]>, burt

    Quoted message said:

    Another letter in the Evening Post about cycle helmets, reproduced
    below, with my response after. If anyone else feels like writing
    to the editor for publishing on their letters page, feel free.

    Much snipped but I know that you will all have read it. Best letter
    response I have seen - can I use it?

    --
    A T (Sandy) Morton
    on the Bicycle Island
    In the Global Village
    http://www.millport.net

  3. burt said:

    Another letter in the Evening Post about cycle helmets, reproduced
    below, with my response after. If anyone else feels like writing to
    the editor for publishing on their letters page, feel free.


    http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144961&command=newPage

    <SNIP>

    Gordon Bennet. Will someone tell me one way or another if it's good to wear
    helmets?
    Every 'study' on helmets contradicts some other study on helmets. What are
    people meant to believe?

  4. Following on from burt's message. . .

    The bottom line is:

    Which is the better investment
    (a) Buying a helmet
    (b) Cycling deficiency
    (c) The National syllabus

    Answers on one side of the tarmac to . . .

    --
    PETER FOX Not the same since the deckchair business folded
    [email hidden]
    www.eminent.demon.co.uk/wcc.htm Witham Cycling Campaign
    www.eminent.demon.co.uk/rides East Anglian Pub cycle rides

  5. Burning_Ranger said:
    burt said:

    Another letter in the Evening Post about cycle helmets, reproduced
    below, with my response after. If anyone else feels like writing to
    the editor for publishing on their letters page, feel free.


    http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144961&command=newPage

    <SNIP>

    Gordon Bennet. Will someone tell me one way or another if it's good to wear
    helmets?

    If anyone truly claims to know, I would mistrust them. I don't mean that
    everyone claiming 'our evidence shows that cycle helmets are effective /
    ineffective' is being dishonest - that's slightly different.

    Quoted message said:

    Every 'study' on helmets contradicts some other study on helmets. What are
    people meant to believe?

    Some say that Science isn't about being sure of anything; it's about
    doing experiments or finding arguments that support or refute particular
    'facts' or theories - in other words it's all about controversy.
    In practice, there comes a point where most people agree and people stop
    arguing. For example, nobody would suggest that parachutes are ineffective
    at preventing skydiving injuries. I don't think we've reached this point
    yet regarding bicycle helmets, so nobody could or should give you a
    definitive answer.

    The way I resolve this problem is to wear a helmet 50% of the time.
    I'm not sure that this is the best-thought-out solution, though.

    AC

  6. "Sandy Morton" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, burt

    Quoted message said:

    Another letter in the Evening Post about cycle helmets, reproduced
    below, with my response after. If anyone else feels like writing
    to the editor for publishing on their letters page, feel free.

    Much snipped but I know that you will all have read it. Best letter
    response I have seen - can I use it?

    feel free.

    --
    cheers

    Rich

    Quoted message said:


    --
    A T (Sandy) Morton
    on the Bicycle Island
    In the Global Village
    http://www.millport.net

  7. "Burning_Ranger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    burt said:

    Another letter in the Evening Post about cycle helmets, reproduced
    below, with my response after. If anyone else feels like writing to
    the editor for publishing on their letters page, feel free.



    http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144961&command=newPage

    Quoted message said:


    <SNIP>

    Gordon Bennet. Will someone tell me one way or another if it's good to


    wear

    Quoted message said:

    helmets?
    Every 'study' on helmets contradicts some other study on helmets. What are
    people meant to believe?

    depends who you want to believe really.

    If you believe the long term, large scale research, done by disinterested
    people, then helmets are at best useless, and at worst, positively
    dangerous.

    If you believe the small scale, short term research, often done by people
    who are demonstrably biased, then helmets are fantastically effective.

    The situation as I see it now is that a considerable number of people would
    look very silly indeed if it was accepted that helmets don't work, and
    despite the facts, are fighting tooth and nail to show that they do work.
    Let's face it, the establishment gave the swamp monster some kind of honour,
    and what would they do if it was shown that, far from being the saint she
    tries to appear, she was shown to be just another arrogant, interfering
    woman, unable to see beyond her nose.

    Quoted message said:


  8. "Burning_Ranger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    burt said:

    Another letter in the Evening Post about cycle helmets, reproduced
    below, with my response after. If anyone else feels like writing to
    the editor for publishing on their letters page, feel free.



    http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144961&command=newPag
    e

    Quoted message said:


    <SNIP>

    Gordon Bennet. Will someone tell me one way or another if it's good
    to wear helmets?
    Every 'study' on helmets contradicts some other study on helmets.
    What are people meant to believe?

    It's political.

    All Governments and Bureaucracies love to control people.

    Despite what they may claim to the contrary. Their livelihood
    depends on it.

    Count 'em, regulate 'em, tax 'em.

    With bikes they can't. Bikes are the AK47's of mobility and of
    society generally, because for one thing they don't generate
    any tax revenues. And it's hard to see how they could be made
    to do so, without any such measures being seen as being totally
    disproportionate.

    So governments and bureaucracies go out of their way
    to introduce clearly stupid measures, manifestly absurd
    cycle lanes etc, and the threat of legislation where needs
    be, so as to discourage and demoralise cyclists, wherever
    possible.

    Either that, or regulate them out of existence.

    Forcing cyclists to wear a helmet - to be seen to conform
    in a highly visible way - is an avowedly political act.

    [Although possibly Australians, the Govt included fell
    overwhelmingly for the "protect the children" nonsense.
    See below]

    Oh and the last thing any government actually needs is people
    living any longer than they do now, by adopting healthier
    lifestyles.

    While claiming precisely the opposite.

    The Government uses the "protect the children" argument as a
    convenient smokescreen. Of course it does. Any "Protect the
    Children" argument appeals to the precisely the sorts of numbskulls
    and boneheads who believe anything told to them by men in white
    coats with pens in their pockets.

    The very idea that any so-called "safety measures" could ever
    actually cost lives - would clearly never appeal to those whose
    sole justification for any piece of twisted logic they may care
    to come out with is - "no matter what you say, the chidren must
    come first. "

    So that in their eyes, trying to argue with men in white coats
    spouting "protect the children" nonsense puts you only one step
    away from being a child murderer yourself. Witness the fuss over
    MMR vaccines.

    Basically those in power have never forgotten the lesson of
    Singapore*. Just be thankful they forgot about Michael Collins**,
    or they'd somehow be managing to link bicycles with 9/11 and the
    "War on Terr'" and then we really would all be sunk.

    Curious

    * Where large numbers of Japanese Infantry cycled down supposedly
    impassable roads down the length of Malay Penisula, to take
    Singapore by surprise....

    ** Michael Collins the IRA leader with a big price on his head
    in the early 1920's apprently evaded capture by the simple
    expedient of going through Police and Army checkpoints on a bike

  9. On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:20:54 +0100, Dr Curious wrote:

    ..... a load of paranoid, conspiracy theory laden drivel.

    --
    Michael MacClancy
    Random putdown - "He is not only dull himself, he is the cause of dullness
    in others." -Samuel Johnson
    www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
    www.macclancy.co.uk

  10. Dr Curious said:
    Quoted message said:

    Gordon Bennet. Will someone tell me one way or another if it's good
    to wear helmets?
    Every 'study' on helmets contradicts some other study on helmets.
    What are people meant to believe?

    Quoted message said:

    It's political.

    Not really, no. The driving force behind helmet promotion is "injury
    prevention" experts who look at the probability of injury given crash and
    forget that helmets also affect the probability of crash given ride. The
    conspiracists among us can speculate on whether the generous funding given
    to these people by the helmet industry is a way of allowing the helmet
    industry to promote exaggerated claims for effectiveness without falling
    foul of advertising laws, but the politicians are as much the dupes here as
    the cyclists.

    The list of cyclists who were initially taken in because they did not
    realise the contradictory evidence existed, is long. It includes Roger
    Geffen of CTC as well as me. The main difference between cyclists and BeHIT
    is that BeHIT depend for their existence on pretending that the evidence is
    unequivocally in their favour, whereas we depend for our lives on forming a
    balanced judgement of the pros and cons.

    If every politician were forced to read and demonstrate understanding of
    John Adams' /Risk/ before discussin the helmet issue, the [censored] peddles
    by the Liddites would receive a much less favourable hearing. One of the
    more striking facets of the recent Martlew debate was the number of MPs who
    changed their minds when they became aware of the contradictory nature of
    the evidence (a fact which the Liddites work hard to hide).

    In answer to the OP, there is nothing inherently wrong with wearing a helmet
    as long as you remember it's made of meringue covered in eggshell, and ride
    accordingly.

    --
    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

  11. Quoted message said:

    The way I resolve this problem is to wear a helmet 50% of the time.
    I'm not sure that this is the best-thought-out solution, though.

    Lol me too. I wear it when it rains, to keep the rain out of my eyes 🙂

  12. "Michael MacClancy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:20:54 +0100, Dr Curious wrote:

    .... a load of paranoid, conspiracy theory laden drivel.

    You missed the point in other words.

    No surprises there, then!

    Curious

    Quoted message said:


    --
    Michael MacClancy


    I've got a really funny sig everybody cos' I'm such a funny guy.
    Please, oh please, like me, everybody.

  13. Burning_Ranger said:
    burt said:

    Another letter in the Evening Post about cycle helmets, reproduced
    below, with my response after. If anyone else feels like writing to
    the editor for publishing on their letters page, feel free.

    http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144961&command=newPage

    <SNIP>

    Gordon Bennet. Will someone tell me one way or another if it's good to wear
    helmets?
    Every 'study' on helmets contradicts some other study on helmets. What are
    people meant to believe?

    Well, I don't think it's been decided yet ;-)

    Personally, I wear one to avoid insurance company wriggling out (one
    less excuse for not paying out), and take the chance that I might do
    more severe injury from rotational thingy. I also wear it cos I have a
    history of being able to fall off bikes at very low speed, normally from
    doing something I know is daft, but managing to do it anyway - or just a
    lapse in bike handling skill...

    I have no doubts that in the event of a collision with a vehicle or
    anything else at more than dead slow speeds, it's not going to provide
    any significant protection. If I'm wrong, then it's a bonus, if I'm
    right, then I'd be no worse off than not wearing it, hopefully. And if
    I am, then maybe I'll be another contribution to the evidence that bike
    helmets aren't all they're cracked up to be...

    I've always worn one since I returned to cycling recently (never existed
    when I was a kid so never wore one). Yes I sometimes think it'd be nice
    to feel the wind in my hair, but cos I've always worn one I have no
    perception of it being hotter with a helmet, for example. Found it
    quite useful at keeping some of the rain off recently, so that was an
    unexpected bonus.

    I think it's a personal decision whether to wear or not, based on how
    much weight you attach to the various components of risk, likelyhood of
    occurrance, etc. Be nice if some day a definitive study was done that
    refuted the others with proof and showed exactly why others are
    flawed/invalid, but that takes a lot of data and probably a lot of
    funding too.

    --

    Velvet

  14. On Fri, 16 Jul 2004 08:20:54 +0100, Dr Curious <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    With bikes they can't. Bikes are the AK47's of mobility and of
    society generally, because for one thing they don't generate
    any tax revenues.

    I've paid VAT on all the bikes and bike accessories I have bought.

    Colin

  15. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Dr Curious said:

    So that in their eyes, trying to argue with men in white coats
    spouting "protect the children" nonsense puts you only one step
    away from being a child murderer yourself. Witness the fuss over
    MMR vaccines.

    I think the moment you link the debate over helmets (which are
    demonstrably useless in a large number of reputable studies, and
    worthwhile in few reputablestudies), and for which the evidence of risk
    compensation is large in a wide range of studies, with the row over MMR
    (where there are no sizable studies, no replicating papers and massive
    evidence that it's the cold fusion of the late 90s) you're headed into
    nutter land. It's like our local healthfood co-operative, whose
    excellent campaigning on transport, food and pollution is underminded by
    the occasion burst of ``Flouridation is only done so that the chemical
    industry can dump poisonous waste into our water'' craziness (note: I
    live in Birmingham).

    ian

  16. anonymous coward said:

    The way I resolve this problem is to wear a helmet 50% of the time.
    I'm not sure that this is the best-thought-out solution, though.

    Actually the best solution is to wear one to protect against minor
    knocks and scratches but to use those moments in an big accident where
    everything goes into slow motion to take your helmet off and throw it
    clear. That's my new strategy anyway ;-)

    Tony


  17. Quoted message said:


    http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144961&command=newPage

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:


    <SNIP>

    Gordon Bennet. Will someone tell me one way or another if it's good to


    wear

    Quoted message said:

    helmets?
    Every 'study' on helmets contradicts some other study on helmets. What


    are

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    people meant to believe?

    depends who you want to believe really.

    If you believe the long term, large scale research, done by disinterested
    people, then helmets are at best useless, and at worst, positively
    dangerous.

    If you believe the small scale, short term research, often done by people
    who are demonstrably biased, then helmets are fantastically effective.

    The situation as I see it now is that a considerable number of people


    would

    Quoted message said:

    look very silly indeed if it was accepted that helmets don't work, and
    despite the facts, are fighting tooth and nail to show that they do work.
    Let's face it, the establishment gave the swamp monster some kind of


    honour,

    Quoted message said:

    and what would they do if it was shown that, far from being the saint she
    tries to appear, she was shown to be just another arrogant, interfering
    woman, unable to see beyond her nose.

    Can I just point out firstly that it's 'helmets'.... 🙂 OK, got the
    pedantics out of the way

    I'm intrigued - how can helmets be positively dangerous? Are you suggesting
    they exacerbate injuries to the head? I agree with the OP in principle that
    for kids helmets are not really going to help too much - they're much more
    likely to be hit by cars than come a cropper landing head first.

    However, in mtbing I can say that helmets are important. You're much more
    likely to, for example, go over the handlebars. A friend of mine did and
    landed square on his head. I shudder to think what damage would have been
    done had he not had a helmet; as it was he only broke 2 vertebrae.

    Anyway, as a kind of halo effect, I wear my helmet when just heading round
    town, too. Although obviously if I were convinced by reading these posts
    that it was ineffective at best, I'd probably stop....

    Nick

  18. Nick Drew said:

    http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144961&command=newPage

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    <SNIP>

    Gordon Bennet. Will someone tell me one way or another if it's good to

    wear

    Quoted message said:

    helmets?
    Every 'study' on helmets contradicts some other study on helmets. What

    are

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    people meant to believe?

    depends who you want to believe really.

    If you believe the long term, large scale research, done by disinterested
    people, then helmets are at best useless, and at worst, positively
    dangerous.

    If you believe the small scale, short term research, often done by people
    who are demonstrably biased, then helmets are fantastically effective.

    The situation as I see it now is that a considerable number of people

    would

    Quoted message said:

    look very silly indeed if it was accepted that helmets don't work, and
    despite the facts, are fighting tooth and nail to show that they do work.
    Let's face it, the establishment gave the swamp monster some kind of

    honour,

    Quoted message said:

    and what would they do if it was shown that, far from being the saint she
    tries to appear, she was shown to be just another arrogant, interfering
    woman, unable to see beyond her nose.

    Can I just point out firstly that it's 'helmets'.... 🙂 OK, got the
    pedantics out of the way

    I'm intrigued - how can helmets be positively dangerous? Are you suggesting
    they exacerbate injuries to the head? I agree with the OP in principle that
    for kids helmets are not really going to help too much - they're much more
    likely to be hit by cars than come a cropper landing head first.

    However, in mtbing I can say that helmets are important. You're much more
    likely to, for example, go over the handlebars. A friend of mine did and
    landed square on his head. I shudder to think what damage would have been
    done had he not had a helmet; as it was he only broke 2 vertebrae.

    Anyway, as a kind of halo effect, I wear my helmet when just heading round
    town, too. Although obviously if I were convinced by reading these posts
    that it was ineffective at best, I'd probably stop....

    Nick

    Well given the way wearing high-vis everything seems to still render you
    utterly invisible to drivers.... I doubt a glowing helmet-provided halo
    would make you any more visible to be honest ;-)

    --

    Velvet

  19. in message <[email hidden]>,

    Burning_Ranger (') said:
    burt said:

    Another letter in the Evening Post about cycle helmets, reproduced
    below, with my response after. If anyone else feels like writing to
    the editor for publishing on their letters page, feel free.



    http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=144961&command=newPage

    Quoted message said:


    <SNIP>

    Gordon Bennet. Will someone tell me one way or another if it's good to
    wear helmets?
    Every 'study' on helmets contradicts some other study on helmets. What
    are people meant to believe?

    OK, what is uncontroversial is that a helmet will protect your head in
    low speed falls from your bike, provided you don't land on anything
    particularly sharp. This will protect you from scratches and bruising
    and might protect you from mild concussion. Provided, of course, that
    you land on the top of your head, not on the side of it and not on your
    face. And provided the helmet is securely strapped on and doesn't move.

    In higher speed impacts things get more complicated. Firstly the degree
    of protection diminishes rapidly as speed of impact increases. It may
    diminish with the square of the speed, which is what you'd predict. But
    injury increases with the fourth power of the speed, so it may be worst
    than that. What this means is that in a 30mph impact a helmet isn't
    protective enough, even if everything works perfectly. In a 60mph
    impact it's an irrelevance.

    But it may be worse than this. Increases in helmet use never correlate
    with decreases in injury. No-one, I think, really knows why this is.
    There are two main areas of suggestion. The first is risk compensation.
    When riders are helmeted they may take risks which they would not take
    if they were not helmeted. Alternatively, other road users may take
    risks near helmeted cyclists which they would not take if the cyclists
    were not helmeted. The final suggestion is that falling with a helmet
    may cause injuries - particularly rotational injuries - which would not
    have been sustained if a helmet had not been worn, because the helmet
    makes the effective diameter of the head bigger.

    --
    [email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; all in all you're just another click in the call
    ;; -- Minke Bouyed

  20. "Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I've always worn one since I returned to cycling recently (never existed
    when I was a kid so never wore one).

    And indeed, I never started wearing one - I didn't wear one as a kid, didn't
    wear one through my most dangerous cycling years (IME Cambridge streets are
    a lot more dangerous than Dales roads), so see no reason to wear one on road
    now.

    (off road other considerations come into play - I _want_ to
    risk-compensate!)

    cheers,
    clive

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.