Sociology 101

[email hidden] (Terry R. McConnell) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

How does the field react to this incident?

We pretend to grab our chests, and yell "Weezie, it's the
big one!". Then we laugh as we run by, and let the trained
medical staff (standing by for the race) take care of him.

"Terry R. McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

One of the few interesting things I heard about in the
Sociology class I was compelled to take in college were
the results of an experiment,

supposedly

Quoted message said:

actually conducted by members of the previous year's
class:

Test subjects were given a package to be delivered to
another office down the street. They were firmly told that
quick delivery of the package would

be

Quoted message said:

in their best interest, the quicker the better. A hidden
camera recorded each subject's trip between offices, which
took place along a deserted

back

Quoted message said:

alley.

About halfway down the alley a wino would stagger out from
a doorway and collapse at the side of the pavement. The
experimenters were interested, of course, in whether the
subjects would abandon their `urgent' delivery

and

Quoted message said:

attempt to aid the unfortunate victim (who was, in
reality, one of the

course

Quoted message said:

TAs in disguise.) I don't recall the exact figures, but it
seems that a depressingly large percentage of them would
hurry by, perhaps figuring

that

Quoted message said:

somebody else would come along soon who had more leisure
time on their hands.

Cut now to the start of an hypothetical big city 5K road
race. Shortly

after

Quoted message said:

the leaders round the first corner, a man emerging from a
nearby drugstore clutches his chest and collapses to the
sidewalk.

How does the field react to this incident?

When my appendix burst during the ATB30k race in March, I
found myself on the sidewalk in a sort of "upright" fetal
position, shivering and clearly having a bad time - maybe
not showing the signs of heart trouble, but none the less it
was obvious I was suffering from something pretty severe.
I'd place the spectacle in a similar ballpark, the only real
difference is that I was part of the race, not some guy
walking out of a drugstore. I wonder if this has bearing.

Regardless, this is what I found:

The race had 3500 - odd entrants and I collapsed shortly
before halfway, while still in the top 35 - 40 or so. I was
asked if I was okay by no one for quite some time. I think a
few hundred runners went by before someone said something.
Once the back half of the race started coming though, some
people actually stopped. In other words, the slower people
were, the more apt they seemed to be to potentially mess up
their race to help someone else.

So in other words, aside from getting up once to try and
actually run again when a friend ran by (this lasted about 5
steps) I was on the sidewalk for maybe 25 minutes, and the
first 10 - 15 or so was spent feeling invisible while the
top 20% or so of the runners went by.

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com
***********************************

Terry R. McConnell said:

One of the few interesting things I heard about in the
Sociology class I was compelled to take in college were
the results of an experiment, supposedly actually
conducted by members of the previous year's class:

Test subjects were given a package to be delivered to
another office down the street. They were firmly told that
quick delivery of the package would be in their best
interest, the quicker the better. A hidden camera recorded
each subject's trip between offices, which took place
along a deserted back alley.

About halfway down the alley a wino would stagger out from
a doorway and collapse at the side of the pavement. The
experimenters were interested, of course, in whether the
subjects would abandon their `urgent' delivery and attempt
to aid the unfortunate victim (who was, in reality, one of
the course TAs in disguise.) I don't recall the exact
figures, but it seems that a depressingly large percentage
of them would hurry by, perhaps figuring that somebody
else would come along soon who had more leisure time on
their hands.

Cut now to the start of an hypothetical big city 5K road
race. Shortly after the leaders round the first corner, a
man emerging from a nearby drugstore clutches his chest
and collapses to the sidewalk.

How does the field react to this incident?

It's a different experiment -- you'll get a "diffusion of
responsibility" effect because of the large crowd, but the
victim may be taken more seriously if they're not a wino. Me
and some friends called an ambulance for a wino once and he
staggered away before the ambulance came leaving us to
explain ourselves to the paramedics. I haven't called an
ambulance for a wino since then.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

"Interesting"
so yu ar cursed!
A man and a cane at Port Huron, smelt fishing in chope mud water. ask me
to be a hand, fall from a cliff, and be a anaconda fool base. i said I
have a place thank-you leave me alone. trying me net? The b.s.u.ss 10 K
race this day. fine looking woman in back. 2 loops. I on bench. no
wine. butt must of been JACK,,,,, because spice rum came into
this....... butt 2:30 a.m. and high winds under bridge I sped.

Roots he wrote so I new he be I sped anyway, at home......3
and 4 pound wall eye be caught in boat on canada side
between hours of 10 and 11 at night....all anglers
zero....... Jack got fired. so I quit......... bike I be
star again in a.m. Godspeed/ and too big black
man........[censored].you gave yourself away. you
did......Captain Jack [censored]...war is true......u.s.a. is
good.....i hope bush wins again.........because when you
have nature.:>😉 1,000 miles KYA......... you allways on
ground. pick up and fall to social.......... wino no
need your help. never been to friday night u.s.a. . I
would leave.....I never well be able to live with them
(group) again. Biker. Lowtuc..

might work. summer here.........maybe get some work.......
church
camp look a no go....... differ if work and let off, Gee 300
peope lose
there job and I should paint 13 offices. so I can get
scrrew....Whatsa
world you liveing in. No church camp........... No help
wino..........

I home and work now....... well home. i not going to pay
taxs. on tese work 1099.....pirate I b......liers you be..a
new era we live for.(LOWERDS)..... I was lowered, you are
s.u.v. chevy geo wreck....and I not pay insurance. because
behind all 3 doors to social is. screw
U............ life go on....wellcome to biker world..
runners. god speed. pray far yu at lake and camp.I be
bikeing swiming and fishing.....Y b cuse I cun. d u own
offce smart boy.

With apathy.........not that I care.

I participated in the Leadville 100 in 2000 (the bike ride,
not the run). A doc was riding when a rider in front crashed
really bad, knocking himself out. The rider stopped to
render assistance. Of course, being a doc, he had more of a
duty than I would have had.

I would hope that someone would stop and render assistance,
but I probably would not even notice unless it happened in
front of me on the course. I get pretty focused in a 5K.

The study does not surprise me based on other studies I saw
in psychology and sociology classes and the Milgram studies.

"Terry R. McConnell" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

One of the few interesting things I heard about in the
Sociology class I was compelled to take in college were
the results of an experiment,

supposedly

Quoted message said:

actually conducted by members of the previous year's
class:

Test subjects were given a package to be delivered to
another office down the street. They were firmly told that
quick delivery of the package would

be

Quoted message said:

in their best interest, the quicker the better. A hidden
camera recorded each subject's trip between offices, which
took place along a deserted

back

Quoted message said:

alley.

About halfway down the alley a wino would stagger out from
a doorway and collapse at the side of the pavement. The
experimenters were interested, of course, in whether the
subjects would abandon their `urgent' delivery

and

Quoted message said:

attempt to aid the unfortunate victim (who was, in
reality, one of the

course

Quoted message said:

TAs in disguise.) I don't recall the exact figures, but it
seems that a depressingly large percentage of them would
hurry by, perhaps figuring

that

Quoted message said:

somebody else would come along soon who had more leisure
time on their hands.

Cut now to the start of an hypothetical big city 5K road
race. Shortly

after

Quoted message said:

the leaders round the first corner, a man emerging from a
nearby drugstore clutches his chest and collapses to the
sidewalk.

How does the field react to this incident?

--
*********************************************************-
***************
Terry R. McConnell Mathematics/215 Carnegie/Syracuse, N.Y.
13244-1150 [email hidden] 229B Physics Bldg
barnyard.syr.edu~tmcOpen ↗
*********************************************************-
***************

[email hidden] (Terry R. McConnell) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Cut now to the start of an hypothetical big city 5K road
race. Shortly after the leaders round the first corner, a
man emerging from a nearby drugstore clutches his chest
and collapses to the sidewalk.

How does the field react to this incident?

After reading through some of the answers I think a major
factor to consider are the number of other whitnesses. On a
crowded city street I would think, as I race by, I don't
have a cell phone, my average knowledge of cpr is not better
than an average bystander already there. I'd seek out the
nearest, up course, cop, ambulance, volunteer and advise
them there is a person in need of assistance back x number
of feet/miles.

If it were a deserted street (or trail) I may offer
assitance to track someone down. CPR is not a solo
operation, there must be another person to seek help and
another to back you up. CPR can be a successful solo
operation in some cases.

I've passed many a racer in various stages of distress. And
perhaps many others I didn't notice. The first thing I was
taught in my wilderness first aid class (many years ago) was
assess the situation for your own safety. Many would-be
rescuers die because they skip this step. If I judge the
situation too risky for me then I go for help.

The more unlikely I judge help to be nearby the more likely
I'd stop and assist. This with the knowledge I live and work
not far from where Kitty Genevose was killed.
newsday.comhs818a.htmOpen ↗ link if
you're interested.

Andy

[email hidden] (Terry R. McConnell) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Cut now to the start of an hypothetical big city 5K road
race. Shortly after the leaders round the first corner, a
man emerging from a nearby drugstore clutches his chest
and collapses to the sidewalk.

How does the field react to this incident?

After reading through some of the answers I think a major
factor to consider are the number of other whitnesses. On a
crowded city street I would think, as I race by, I don't
have a cell phone, my average knowledge of cpr is not better
than an average bystander already there. I'd seek out the
nearest, up course, cop, ambulance, volunteer and advise
them there is a person in need of assistance back x number
of feet/miles.

If it were a deserted street (or trail) I may offer
assitance to track someone down. CPR is not a solo
operation, there must be another person to seek help and
another to back you up. CPR can be a successful solo
operation in some cases.

I've passed many a racer in various stages of distress. And
perhaps many others I didn't notice. The first thing I was
taught in my wilderness first aid class (many years ago) was
assess the situation for your own safety. Many would-be
rescuers die because they skip this step. If I judge the
situation too risky for me then I go for help.

The more unlikely I judge help to be nearby the more likely
I'd stop and assist. This with the knowledge I live and work
not far from where Kitty Genevose was killed.
newsday.comhs818a.htmOpen ↗ link if
you're interested.

Andy

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Quoted message said:

Cut now to the start of an hypothetical big city 5K road
race. Shortly after the leaders round the first corner, a
man emerging from a nearby drugstore clutches his chest
and collapses to the sidewalk.

How does the field react to this incident?

In high school I ran the Gasparilla Distance Classic every
year. One year it was pouring rain. There's a hairpin curve
at the halfway point. A wheelchair athlete took the turn too
fast, flipped, and almost took me out. Despite the urge to
keep running (I was po'ed the guy almost hit me) I did stop
to help. He was beyond my ability to help (he needed EMS) so
I let the spectators tend to that.

- --
John Mayson <[email hidden]> Austin, Texas, USA

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In article said:

In other words, the slower people were, the more apt they
seemed to be to potentially mess up their race to help
someone else.

Perhaps it might be more appropriate to say that the less
people have to lose the more likely they are to help. A
slower runner might drop a couple of percentiles, whereas a
top 50 runner might drop from the top 1% to 21%.

Paul

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

....So in other words, aside from getting up once to try
and actually run again when a friend ran by (this lasted
about 5 steps) I was on the sidewalk for maybe 25 minutes,
and the first 10 - 15 or so was spent feeling invisible
while the top 20% or so of the runners went by.

My story isn't as medically dramatic, but illustrative of
the ultra mentality...

At a small (< 100 runners) and very tough 50k, I was in 2nd
place at 21 miles, when my legs locked up -- I was
immobilized for several minutes, and then could only limp
very slowly. I was at the top of a 10,000' peak, with 3
miles of steep, rotten, rocky trail and scree before the
next aid station.

After 5 or 10 minutes of hobbling, 3rd place came running
up. Turns out he was the initial leader whom I had taken the
lead from at mile 4 (the winner took the lead from me at
mile 8). Third place asked what was wrong, and I told him I
was locked up. He stopped and gave me a couple of advils,
and I thanked him profusely.

I thought that was very cool -- he could have just said,
"geez, sorry to hear about that", and kept on going. For all
he knew, I could have had a Frankenstein moment and come
roaring back to pass him again.

I somehow hung on and finished fourth.

-- Dan

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

So in other words, aside from getting up once to try and
actually run again when a friend ran by (this lasted about
5 steps) I was on the sidewalk for maybe 25 minutes, and
the first 10 - 15 or so was spent feeling invisible while
the top 20% or so of the runners went by.

Í wouldn´t have been within the top 20% of that field, but I
think that unless the scene was completely deserted it was
quite natural and not at all unreasonable pof the runners to
assume that the spectators (or bypassers) were better suited
and quite capable of checking up on your situation and
calling up medical assistance or transport.

OTOH it *can* happen that everyone thinks *someone else*
will act or has already acted, but I´d easily relieve the
runners or any moral obligation in the situation (as I
picture it) and pass the buck to the non-runners.

Anders

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Regardless, this is what I found:

The race had 3500 - odd entrants and I collapsed shortly
before halfway, while still in the top 35 - 40 or so. I
was asked if I was okay by no one for quite some time. I
think a few hundred runners went by before someone said
something. Once the back half of the race started coming
though, some people actually stopped. In other words, the
slower people were, the more apt they seemed to be to
potentially mess up their race to help someone else.

Probably not a fair statement but I'm sticking to it - red-
liners are classically so self-absorbed while running that
the race, pace and time is the first priority!!

-DougF

In article <[email hidden]>,

SwStudio said:

When my appendix burst during the ATB30k race in March, I
found myself on the sidewalk in a sort of "upright" fetal
position, shivering and clearly having a bad time - maybe
not showing the signs of heart trouble, but none the less
it was obvious I was suffering from something pretty
severe. I'd place the spectacle in a similar ballpark, the
only real difference is that I was part of the race, not
some guy walking out of a drugstore. I wonder if this has
bearing.

Regardless, this is what I found:

The race had 3500 - odd entrants and I collapsed shortly
before halfway, while still in the top 35 - 40 or so. I
was asked if I was okay by no one for quite some time. I
think a few hundred runners went by before someone said
something. Once the back half of the race started coming
though, some people actually stopped. In other words, the
slower people were, the more apt they seemed to be to
potentially mess up their race to help someone else.

So in other words, aside from getting up once to try and
actually run again when a friend ran by (this lasted about
5 steps) I was on the sidewalk for maybe 25 minutes, and
the first 10 - 15 or so was spent feeling invisible while
the top 20% or so of the runners went by.

cheers,

man, that is absolutely stunning! i can't believe you waited
that long for anyone to help.

you know, another factor might be the length of race. in a 5
or 10k, i know i'd stop in a heartbeat to help someone. in
fact, i think i did stop for a moment to ask someone if they
were ok in one of my earliest races (they said "fine" and
motioned for me to go on). now if it were say a marathon...
well, that takes months of marathon training, and some
(serious) racers might not be very willing to sacrifice the
time in a race that might mean gettting a PB or qualifying
for Boston. I'd like to think that I'd stop to help someone
even in a marathon. after all, i ain't exactly the faster
dude in a race of that length. depends how serious the
problem looks. it's a tough call.

Cam

"+" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Terry R. McConnell) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How does the field react to this incident?

We pretend to grab our chests, and yell "Weezie, it's the
big one!". Then we laugh as we run by, and let the trained
medical staff (standing by for the race) take care of him.

I thought you would blame the heart attack on the person
wearing Nikes.

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's a different experiment -- you'll get a "diffusion
of responsibility" effect

because of the large crowd, but the victim may be taken
more seriously if they're not a wino. Me and some friends
called an ambulance for a wino once and he staggered away
before the ambulance came leaving us to explain ourselves
to the paramedics. I haven't called an ambulance for a
wino since then.

First off, what made you think it was your responsibility
top weait there and explain yourself? When they arrive and
nobody's there, you think they'll start CPR on a tree, or
leave? And it's pretty cold calling an ambulance on your dad
while he's napping.

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

At a small (< 100 runners) and very tough 50k, I was in
2nd place at

21

Quoted message said:

miles, when my legs locked up -- I was immobilized
for several

minutes, and

Quoted message said:

then could only limp very slowly. I was at the top of a
10,000' peak,

with

Quoted message said:

3 miles of steep, rotten, rocky trail and scree before the
next aid

station.

Quoted message said:

After 5 or 10 minutes of hobbling, 3rd place came running
up. Turns

out he

Quoted message said:

was the initial leader whom I had taken the lead from at
mile 4 (the

winner

Quoted message said:

took the lead from me at mile 8). Third place asked what
was wrong,

and I

Quoted message said:

told him I was locked up. He stopped and gave me a couple
of advils,

and I

Quoted message said:

thanked him profusely.

And as I've said for years, ultra runners are more at
peace with themselves so stopping to help is a lot more
common. -DougF

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"SwStudio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Regardless, this is what I found:

The race had 3500 - odd entrants and I collapsed shortly
before halfway, while still in the top 35 - 40 or so. I
was asked if I was okay by no one for quite some time. I
think a few hundred runners went by before someone said
something. Once the back half of the race started coming
though, some people actually stopped. In other words,
the slower people were, the more apt they seemed to be
to potentially mess up their race to help someone else.

Probably not a fair statement but I'm sticking to it - red-
liners are classically so self-absorbed while running that
the race, pace and time is the first priority!!

Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with you!

cheers,
--
David (in Hamilton, ON) www.allfalldown.org
www.absolutelyaccurate.com

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I thought you would blame the heart attack on the person
wearing Nikes.

Don't havta, we all know it's their fault.