Slow swimmer, please advice

In article said:

Hi,

I am a slow swimmer. I've started crawl swimming sept. last year. I had some lessons, and it was
said that my technique was much improved and OK. After that I had no follow up from a trainer.
Last sunday I had a swim for 1.5 km and arrived 10min later than the moderated swimmers. What is
wrong? Do I have not enough practice (4 times a week 30 min. swimming) or not enough power? And
what to do to improve my speed?

Please advice.

Bernard

Since you demonstrate that you can cover the distance with no problems, then your speed issue is the
key here... and that is more reliant on technique. Can you get an assessment by your former swim
teacher/trainer? He or she could spot inefficiencies in your stroke and make suggestions about
things you can do to improve your form and movements in the water. There are practice drills that
will help you on your way. You could check out videos, books, or get another couple of lessons on
stroke improvement. I'm sort of in the same boat (well, overboard, actually 🙂 as you are - I've
reached nearly the same distance as you in my long continuous swim, but am pretty slow at it. I am
not overly concerned with my speed but sure would like to see some improvement. MY next step will be
to consult my Total Immersion book for the drills that'll help me speed up via practising better
technique.

Cam

--
Not every race can be a perfect experience, but every race can be a learning experience.

When you say 10 minutes behind the moderate swimmers, what are their times? If the moderate swimmers
are 30 to 40 minutes, and you are 40 to 50, I wouldn't worry too much. you could probably knock some
time off by doing some simple things like working on some speedwork in the pool, cleaning up your
technique a little.

Another thing to be aware of in open water is navigation. You can swim like a barracuda, but if you
are tacking on an extra couple hundred metres swimming in a zigzag instead of straight towards the
markers, you are going to have a slow time.

If you are doing a group swim, you could try catching a ride with someone who is not too far ahead
of you. Drafting is legal during the swim, and you'd be surprised how much faster you can go by
keeping on someone else's tail, provided they can navigate as well.

Keep in mind that everything is relative. If you have to jump on a bike after the swim, slower may
be better.

Keep us posted

Jim

"Bernard" <bernard> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I am a slow swimmer. I've started crawl swimming sept. last year. I had some lessons, and it was
said that my technique was much improved

and

Quoted message said:

OK. After that I had no follow up from a trainer. Last sunday I had a swim for 1.5 km and arrived
10min later than the moderated swimmers. What is wrong? Do I have not enough practice (4 times a
week 30 min. swimming) or not enough power? And what to do to improve my speed?

Please advice.

Bernard

"Bernard" <bernard> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I am a slow swimmer. I've started crawl swimming sept. last year. I had some lessons, and it was
said that my technique was much improved and OK. After that I had no follow up from a trainer.
Last sunday I had a swim for 1.5 km and arrived 10min later than the moderated swimmers. What is
wrong? Do I have not enough practice (4 times a week 30 min. swimming) or not enough power? And
what to do to improve my speed?

Please advice.

Bernard

What time did you put in? Open water or pool?

As for your questions, I'd say it's probably a bit of both. Regarding practice, you need to be
swimming AT LEAST the distance that you are preparing for. I'd actually recommend twice that
distance if you can find the time. (Part of this deals with strength as well.) If your race is
longer than your practice, you will almost assuredly be fatigued at the end and your time will
suffer. Regarding strength, I'd recommend a limited training regimen to anyone who wants to improve
their swims. Many of the muscles that we use in swimming are not particularly strong for most
people. Swimming makes heavy use of the tris and lats, while the average guy tends to focus on
training the chest, biceps, etc. Moreover, swimming demands high rep, low weights, since the focus
is on endurance rather "strength" - how LONG you can lift it, rather than how MUCH you can lift.

If you can answer a few questions, I will try and help you figure out some things that may be able
to help you. How far do you swim each workout? How is this done? Do you have the time to stay
longer? Are you in a pool, or do you have access to one? Do you have access to a weight
room\machine\etc? Do you have much time to use that?

Generally speaking, there's 4 things that one can do to improve their distance times.

1. Swim longer distances at practice, at least as long as your race. Farther is better, if possible.
This will increase your endurance, especially over a longer course.
2. Interval training. Do some descending sets of 100 - this will help your speed, endurance, as well
as pass the time while you do longer distances! :-)
3. Anaerobic training. This is one of the keys to improved speed.
4. Weight training, using low weight\high reps. Target the main muscles used in swimming.

[email hidden] (topdog) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Bernard" <bernard> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

I am a slow swimmer. I've started crawl swimming sept. last year. I had some lessons, and it was
said that my technique was much improved and OK. After that I had no follow up from a trainer.
Last sunday I had a swim for 1.5 km and arrived 10min later than the moderated swimmers. What is
wrong? Do I have not enough practice (4 times a week 30 min. swimming) or not enough power? And
what to do to improve my speed?

Please advice.

Bernard

What time did you put in? Open water or pool?

As for your questions, I'd say it's probably a bit of both. Regarding practice, you need to be
swimming AT LEAST the distance that you are preparing for. I'd actually recommend twice that
distance if you can find the time. (Part of this deals with strength as well.) If your race is
longer than your practice, you will almost assuredly be fatigued at the end and your time will
suffer. Regarding strength, I'd recommend a limited training regimen to anyone who wants to
improve their swims. Many of the muscles that we use in swimming are not particularly strong
for most people. Swimming makes heavy use of the tris and lats, while the average guy tends to
focus on training the chest, biceps, etc. Moreover, swimming demands high rep, low weights,
since the focus is on endurance rather "strength" - how LONG you can lift it, rather than how
MUCH you can lift.

If you can answer a few questions, I will try and help you figure out some things that may be able
to help you. How far do you swim each workout? How is this done? Do you have the time to stay
longer? Are you in a pool, or do you have access to one? Do you have access to a weight
room\machine\etc? Do you have much time to use that?

Generally speaking, there's 4 things that one can do to improve their distance times.

1. Swim longer distances at practice, at least as long as your race. Farther is better, if
possible. This will increase your endurance, especially over a longer course.
2. Interval training. Do some descending sets of 100 - this will help your speed, endurance, as
well as pass the time while you do longer distances! :-)
3. Anaerobic training. This is one of the keys to improved speed.
4. Weight training, using low weight\high reps. Target the main muscles used in swimming.

This goes against most thought on swimming! To give a poor swimmer advice on improvement by
outlining a weights workout is ridiculous! He can swim the distance so you can bet that he isn't a
total beginner but spending time in the gym and swimming twice as far isn't going to work much. Its
going to give him more endurance and bigger muscles!

The bottom line to swimming is to get your technique sorted out. Swimming is NOT a strength sport.
You will not go faster through the water with bigger muscles. You will go faster through the water
if you improve your technique and decrease your drag. Practising swimming fast by doing interval
training with poor technique will generate a lot of energy, get your heart rate very high, but if
you check the stopwatch will most likely give you little return.

Lots of information on this on the web - the classic is Total Immersion - most other "concepts" do
the same thing - use technique to decrease your drag and improve your efficiency. Go and check out
the local swim team - the really quick swimmers at my local pool are not muscled up but have
excellent technique.

My advice would be to get out of the gym, get to the pool and start drilling to imrpve your
technique. Once you are efficient in your stroke, distance starts to become irrelevant.

Quoted message said:

This goes against most thought on swimming! To give a poor swimmer advice on improvement by
outlining a weights workout is ridiculous! He can swim the distance so you can bet that he isn't a
total beginner but spending time in the gym and swimming twice as far isn't going to work much.
Its going to give him more endurance and bigger muscles!

The poster is not a "poor" swimmer, as shown by his times. Also, you will note that I pointedly
mentioned "low weight\high reps" weights. This is not for muscle mass, but rather muscle strength
and endurance. Endurance IS critical for speed over a longer distance. One's stroke is only part of
the equation (as one improves it becomes less and less of an issue), while everyone needs to be able
to maintain a good speed over the entire distance. See more below.

Quoted message said:

The bottom line to swimming is to get your technique sorted out. Swimming is NOT a strength sport.
You will not go faster through the water with bigger muscles. You will go faster through the water
if you improve your technique and decrease your drag. Practising swimming fast by doing interval
training with poor technique will generate a lot of energy, get your heart rate very high, but if
you check the stopwatch will most likely give you little return.

Swimming is not a strength sport, agreed - I never suggested that it was. It is also not a skill
sport - you can do quite well with but an average stroke. However, it IS an endurance sport! If you
do not have the necessary strength and endurance, you will not be able to maintain a steady speed
over a longer distance, such as 1.3km. Once your endurance fails, your stroke will suffer, and your
time with it. So why does distance help? It increases one's endurance, and allows you to swim a fast
cruising speed for a longer length. The same goes for low weight\high rep weights - it will encrease
endurance and strength, allowing your muscles to do more work with less energy used WITHOUT bulk.
Why intervals? To increase one's "base" speed - the speed which you can cruise at comfortably. To go
faster, one must train to do so.

With any of the legs, if you want to improve your speed over a distance, you must train to do that
distance. If I were trying to do an olympic tri, but only ran 1-2 mi a few times a week, the best
way to improve my time in the tri would be to run longer distances in training. Of all the legs,
this applies most to swimming. The poster said that he was training relatively short distances, and
adding endurance will likely be of a huge benefit to both him, as well as most swimmers out there.
Most swimmers I see and have worked with have endurance as their #1 deficiency, and by increasing
that, their times increase a good deal as well.

Quoted message said:

Lots of information on this on the web - the classic is Total Immersion - most other "concepts" do
the same thing - use technique to decrease your drag and improve your efficiency. Go and check out
the local swim team - the really quick swimmers at my local pool are not muscled up but have
excellent technique.

As an ex-collegiate distance swimmer, I think I have some knowledge and experience here. :-) Please
note that I have not mentioned NOT working on one's stroke - I am assuming that if one is doing so,
they will continue to do so. However, give me a person with an average stroke and high endurance
anyday - he will smoke someone with a great stroke and low endurance over a long swim every time!
Strength and repetition will often improve one's stroke as well. There is really little "skill" in
swimming - the more you do it, often the better you do it. Greater strength helps you hold the water
better, more endurance can help you breathe better, and the more you do it, oft times the better you
get. That said, I'd highly encourage anyone who can to work out with a masters group, as this will
get you a free to low-cost way to get coaching and improve technique. Working on one's stroke with a
coach, who not only knows what a good stroke should look like, but can see the mistakes one is
making, is going to be MUCH more productive than trying to improve technique on one's own.

Quoted message said:

My advice would be to get out of the gym, get to the pool and start drilling to imrpve your
technique. Once you are efficient in your stroke, distance starts to become irrelevant.

The longer the distance, the MORE relevant endurance becomes. A great stroke is of little value if
you start to fade after a few hundred meters! Long and strong, long and strong; train the distance
and you can bring it home.

[email hidden] (topdog) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This goes against most thought on swimming! To give a poor swimmer advice on improvement by
outlining a weights workout is ridiculous! He can swim the distance so you can bet that he isn't
a total beginner but spending time in the gym and swimming twice as far isn't going to work
much. Its going to give him more endurance and bigger muscles!

The poster is not a "poor" swimmer, as shown by his times. Also, you will note that I pointedly
mentioned "low weight\high reps" weights. This is not for muscle mass, but rather muscle
strength and

TopDog,

Good answer - I believe we are heading towards the same place! My reply was mainly to stress that
hitting the weights room should compliment your swimming training not take over from it. I am sure
you agree. I recognise that our poster is not a poor swimmer as he has already gone the distance.

My take on drills/technique is that it should become your endurance training - once your techniqe is
improving you should be constantly working on it as you up the distance or do intervals. My
technique training is now mostly just my endurance training usually around 2000m+ where I am
concentrating on my stroke, balance and stroke count while clocking up the distance. Yes, I throw in
some interval sessions but ONLY when I know my technique will stay in place during those intervals.
My simple observations on most of this:
- I see swimmers with a good stroke "turn on the power" and turn into a churning mess! Faster
maybe, high heart rate definitely. Not an efficient way to swim when there is a bike waiting at
the other end.
- I also see a lot of swimmers doing huge distances with no increases in speed over the long term as
they are constantly ingraining a fairly poor technique. A swimmer at the pool where I train churns
out the miles week after week but constantly complains that he never gets faster - but he never
works on his technique and balance and swims at the same pace week in week out.
- On longer events working hard to gain an extra 5 minutes out of the water will lose more than this
on the bike and run. I come out of the swim mid pack, after trying to keep a low heart rate, and
pass numerous bikes in the first 15 minutes without going out really hard. Why? because they're
knackered, and they look it, and the day has only just begun!
- Top tip for speed AND efficienct - learn how to draft.
- Excellent tip from TopDog - find a coach and one who knows about triathlon.

So my pitch on all of this is to make your technique an integral part of your endurance sets. I have
got faster and can hold a reasonable pace for longer with no more effort by doing this - physics
will back me up here! The "low effort thing" is a key to triathlon - after the swim there's a long
way to go! Yes, definitely throw in intervals and some weights to mix things up and push your pace
up but never at the expense of efficiency. This is not a swim meet and the swim is not the longest
and most important leg (can you tell I'm a cyclist!).

Appreciated your post.

Quoted message said:

Good answer - I believe we are heading towards the same place! My reply was mainly to stress that
hitting the weights room should compliment your swimming training not take over from it. I am sure
you agree. I recognise that our poster is not a poor swimmer as he has already gone the distance.

Agreed, it's a complementary thing. Weights go with in-water training, and make it more effective.
Nothing can replace actual swimming.

Quoted message said:

My take on drills/technique is that it should become your endurance training - once your techniqe
is improving you should be constantly working on it as you up the distance or do intervals. My
technique training is now mostly just my endurance training usually around 2000m+ where I am
concentrating on my stroke, balance and stroke count while clocking up the distance. Yes, I throw
in some interval sessions but ONLY when I know my technique will stay in place during those
intervals. My simple observations on most of this:
- I see swimmers with a good stroke "turn on the power" and turn into a churning mess! Faster
maybe, high heart rate definitely. Not an efficient way to swim when there is a bike waiting at
the other end.

Efficiency equals speed, not high turnover. (OK, there's a place for turnover, but better efficiency
gets the most bang for the buck!)

Two things often lead to the "churning mess" you mention. The first is definitely stroke - a
distance stroke is very different than a "normal" stroke - the emphasis is on taking fewer strokes,
low turnover, high efficiency. "Long and strong", as I put it. This brings up the second part, which
is strength and endurance. That long, strong stroke saves a lot of HR, but it takes more strength,
which is why one needs to do the high rep weights, as well as the extra distance. Once the endurance
fails, any stroke becomes messy quickly. In a sense, the distance stroke is akin to riding your bike
in a larger gear, with a big difference being that cadence is not nearly as important in the water.
This is hard to teach someone to do independently of having more strength and endurance. If it's not
there, then you have a lot more water slippage.

Quoted message said:

- I also see a lot of swimmers doing huge distances with no increases in speed over the long term
as they are constantly ingraining a fairly poor technique. A swimmer at the pool where I train
churns out the miles week after week but constantly complains that he never gets faster - but he
never works on his technique and balance and swims at the same pace week in week out.
- On longer events working hard to gain an extra 5 minutes out of the water will lose more than
this on the bike and run. I come out of the swim mid pack, after trying to keep a low heart
rate, and pass numerous bikes in the first 15 minutes without going out really hard. Why?
because they're knackered, and they look it, and the day has only just begun!

There's a difference between "huge distances" and training to do the distance. If you're planning to
swim 1.3km, going only 1000 yds in practice isn't going to get the job done. This is a recipe for
being "knackered", no matter HOW good your stroke is. Adding distance appropriate to your event, as
well as adding endurance strength, will allow you to cover the distance without dying. In other
words, you will be able to maintain a steady pace without raising your HR when your endurance gives
out, which will almost certainly happen if you don't train properly for the distance in your race.
At some point, there's a diminishing return with extra distance, but most of us don't have the time
to reach it if we're training for long events. Two other things to mention - first, stroke training
is tough when you're alone. This is something that a coach can REALLY help on. Doing it alone often
means repeating the same mistakes over and over. I'm not saying don't work on it, but you'll get a
lot more bang for the buck with a coach. Second, the other big cause for getting "knackered" is
another training thing - going out too fast. We used to refer to it as "going out like a banshee and
coming home like a drunken sailor" - if you take out a pace that you can't maintain, you're toast.
Here's where distance training, as well as interval training, helps! Interval training (with small
time drops like I mentioned) helps you determine a good cruising speed that you can maintain, and
both that and distance training help you to maintain it.

Quoted message said:

- Top tip for speed AND efficienct - learn how to draft.

I'll take it a step further - if your race is in open water, DO OPEN WATER TRAINING. The more you
can work out there, the better. There should be a tri group in your area with times that they go
out. This will help you learn drafting, navigation, dealing with choppy water, etc. Open water
swimming is often more tiring than the same distance in a pool. Your race will go more smoothly, and
you will have a much better time, if you have prepared in open water!

Quoted message said:

- Excellent tip from TopDog - find a coach and one who knows about triathlon.

This is where you'll get the best stroke help! Unless you have a really killer stroke, and even if
you do (I still use a coach!), this is a very helpful resource and will improve you incredibly.

Quoted message said:

So my pitch on all of this is to make your technique an integral part of your endurance sets. I
have got faster and can hold a reasonable pace for longer with no more effort by doing this -
physics will back me up here! The "low effort thing" is a key to triathlon - after the swim
there's a long way to go! Yes, definitely throw in intervals and some weights to mix things up and
push your pace up but never at the expense of efficiency. This is not a swim meet and the swim is
not the longest and most important leg (can you tell I'm a cyclist!).

Appreciated your post.

Please note that I never have, never will, mention "pushing your pace". The key is to swim long and
strong for the entire distance. Strength and distance training is critical to having the endurance
necessary to do this. Lack of endurance over a long distance is probably the #1 problem I see with
most swimmers, and one of the easiest ways to improve one's times, IMHO. Longer distance, low drop
interval training helps you both determine and develop a sustainable cruising speed over distances,
as well as help you to increase that over time. The goal is to find a pace that you can maintain
over a distance, and to stay at that speed! Most of us simply don't know what speed that is, and we
will often go out either too fast (and die) or too slow (not much better, really!).

Hello, I am wanting to start triathlons as a sport for me!! and I see by your posting you know what your talking about, so tell me.......where do I start with training? I can only do 10km on my bike at the moment🙁 but am working up to more, what i need to know is how do i become fitter? and how do i progress?? do you have any suggestions?

Cheers😄

marion <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello, I am wanting to start triathlons as a sport for me!! and I see by your posting you know
what your talking about, so tell me.......where do I start with training? I can only do 10km on my
bike at the moment🙁 but am working up to more, what i need to know is how do i become fitter? and
how do i progress?? do you have any suggestions?

Cheers😄

1. Check www.trinewbies.com - they have lots of valuable advice, articles, etc.
2. See if there is a local triathletes group in your area. They also will be incredibly helpful!
3. If there is (and if not, go to a local runner's shop), you can likely find a local tri coach.
They often do classes specifically for beginners. I think you will find having some help you in
person will be MUCH more helpful, as they can better deal with you and your specific needs.

marion <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hello, I am wanting to start triathlons as a sport for me!! and I see by your posting you know
what your talking about, so tell me.......where do I start with training? I can only do 10km on my
bike at the moment🙁 but am working up to more, what i need to know is how do i become fitter? and
how do i progress?? do you have any suggestions?

Cheers😄

Firstly well done on picking such a fine sport!

As Topdog says, if you can find others with similar ambitions and/or a coach that is a very, very
good starting point.

If you can't - don't worry. I have work/family commitments such that most of my training is solo.
There is a lot of information out there to absorb and set you off on the right foot. The key is to
set yourself some realistic targets (probably your first race at some point in the future) and
progressively work towards that. If you are entering a sprint tri with a 400m swim, gradually work
on your swimming so that you can comfortably do the swim. You don't need to bust a gut trying to
achieve huge distances and fast times - plenty of time ahead for all that! Similar with the biking
and running. Your aim here is to finish your first tri and importantly have a great time while you
are doing it. If you can only do 10km on your bike then thatis an excellent start. Work on gradually
building up the distance BUT keep on enjoying it and don't push it too fast too soon. Similar with
the running, if you're not from a running background build up from walking to jogging and so on.

My other major piece of advice - if you look at websites with training plans there are often huge
pressures to put in hours of training. Don't over do it. Balance your life. Fit what you can into
your lifestyle. You don't need to do ridiculous amounts. Due to work and family I train only between
5-6.5 hours a week total but when training I focus on quality not endless quantity. Every time you
train you should have a clear idea of what you want to achieve from that session, from finishing
your 10km bike ride feeling strong, to running a chosen route in a particular time, or working on
your technique etc etc. Don't just put your shoes on and go plodding up the road. Think about what
you want to achieve.

Have a great time in your chosen venture, give yourself a massive reward when you achieve that first
finish, and we look forward to hearing more from you.