General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Slightly OT:> Scanners and Maps

Started by Andrew Priest · · Last activity · 32 posts · 1,212 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
17 July 2004
Last activity
31 July 2004
Original author
Andrew Priest
Posts
32
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
1,212
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 32
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Hi

    I have taken the plunge and have a Garmin Geko 301 on the way (thanks
    Rami). Now in my part of the world, digital topo maps are far and few
    between, at least at a scale good for bushwalking, so I am interested
    in scanning paper maps and using them with Oziexplorer or similar for
    planning routes and downloading the waypoints/tracks to the GPS. I
    will also be looking at printing out the maps for other folks coming
    on the walk (I lead walks).

    The printer I have is nothing fancy, a hp deskjet 5160
    <http://h50025.www5.hp.com/hpcom/au_en/10_35_73_1655summary.html>
    which is "rated" "up to 4800 x 1200-optimized dpi color and
    1200-input dpi."

    I am seeking advice on getting a scanner which will be used primary
    for scanning maps which will be printed on A4 sheets (slightly smaller
    than US letter size). While recommendations on models would
    interesting, I am particularly interested in advice on what spec I
    should be looking at.

    I have posted this to a few groups, so apologies if you get it more
    than once. Hoping to maximise my tapping of the pool of knowledge out
    here and share the outcomes for others who may be interested.

    Thanks
    Sir Andrew

  2. Andrew Priest said:

    I am seeking advice on getting a scanner which will be used primary
    for scanning maps which will be printed on A4 sheets (slightly smaller
    than US letter size). While recommendations on models would
    interesting, I am particularly interested in advice on what spec I
    should be looking at.

    As far as the scanner goes, it depends on how easy you want your life to be.

    On the paper maps that I've scanned, I've had most success (best overall
    accuracy and ease of calibration) with scanning a small section at a time.
    That is, around the fold lines.

    The paper stretches, compresses and generally distorts the image around the
    fold lines, so you're limited by an image that will encompass the folds a
    little. Then you join them up.

    Best if you get the map as one whole unfolded (rolled) sheet, but scanners of
    that size are expensive (don't even ask). I had opportunity to scan some paper
    maps on an A1 size drum scanner, but it was only monochrome, so I declined.
    (the map was virutally invisible in mono).

    Patching the pieces together is the hard part. What I suggest here works for
    me, and is accurate enough for me. From what I can tell, it ends up being more
    accurate than other methods anyway. I'm making the assumption the maps you're
    scanning follow the UTM projection. (most printed topo maps are like this anyway).

    Take all your pieces, and crop them around the fold lines so there is a
    little bit of image overlap around the fold lines. These lines are going to be
    distorted regardless of what you do, so you can't really help much here.

    Rectify the images, that is, ensure the easting/northing lines are perfectly
    horizontal/vertical. Some photo editiing packages enable you to do this easier
    than others, but I'll leave that to you.

    Stretch the image so the easting and northing lines are perfectly symetrical.
    That is, there is the same number of pixels vertically, as there is
    horizontally, for each printed grid line. In other words, unless not already,
    make the grid lines perfectly square.

    Save that image, and repeat for all your pieces. If you're stretching, make
    sure all the images are the same. (same pixel count between printed grid lines
    across all your images).

    Joining is (relatively) easy.

    Enable grid lines on your photo editor (I use photoshop, I'm sure others have
    the same feature). Load your first (top left or whatever) image, and resize
    the grid lines so they fit the image grid lines as best as they possibly can.
    They *should* fit perfectly, as you've made the printed grid lines perfectly
    square in the previous step, remember?

    Copy and paste the remaining images, and align them TO FIT THE EDITOR GRID
    LINES, do not worry if the edges do not perfectly overlap. The edges are
    folded and distorted remember, so you're never going to get that part perfect
    anyway.

    Clean up, and crop the image. You *might* have to play with
    brightness/contrast of each section if it doesn't match with the others.

    Calibrating is REALLY easy.
    Choose the correct datum, choose UTM projection, and enter two calibration
    points, each in direct opposite corners of the image (well, as far as the
    printed grid lines will go anyway). You don't need any more than two points,
    since the image is correctly rectified and sized. (now you know why you spent
    all that time before). Read the co-ordinates off the map, or if they're no
    longer on the image, refer to the correct spot on the paper map.

    Mind you, this is only one way of doing it. I've seen images patched up with
    super-duper software that have only taken ten minutes to do, but they need 20
    calibration points, polynomial calibration enabled, and the calibration process
    has taken an hour to get the image close enough to be even usable.
    And mind you, not all mapping softwares are as flexible as Ozi when it comes
    to badly scanned and patched images.

    But that's your call. I'm more interested in accurate maps rather than how
    fast one can put them together.

    But to answer you question on 'which scanner', any that fits your budget, and
    has a large enough view area to cover one map segment to the fold lines. This
    covers almost any scanner on the market.
    If you're using unfolded paper maps, then as large as you can afford- though
    I've found paper (even unfolded) is a little distorted over larger areas anyway.

    --
    Linux Registered User # 302622 <http://counter.li.org>

  3. Good question for sci.geo.satellite-nav. Also go to groups.yahoo.com
    and join OziUsers-L.
    --
    <Bill>

    Brought to you from beautiful Unalaska/Dutch Harbor, Alaska.
    N 53° 51.140' W 166° 30.228' (WGS 84)

    Andrew Priest said:

    Hi

    I have taken the plunge and have a Garmin Geko 301 on the way (thanks
    Rami). Now in my part of the world, digital topo maps are far and few
    between, at least at a scale good for bushwalking, so I am interested
    in scanning paper maps and using them with Oziexplorer or similar for
    planning routes and downloading the waypoints/tracks to the GPS. I
    will also be looking at printing out the maps for other folks coming
    on the walk (I lead walks).

    I am seeking advice on getting a scanner which will be used primary
    for scanning maps which will be printed on A4 sheets (slightly smaller
    than US letter size). While recommendations on models would
    interesting, I am particularly interested in advice on what spec I
    should be looking at.

  4. Andrew Priest <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Hi

    I have taken the plunge and have a Garmin Geko 301 on the way (thanks
    Rami). Now in my part of the world, digital topo maps are far and few
    between, at least at a scale good for bushwalking, so I am interested
    in scanning paper maps and using them with Oziexplorer or similar for
    planning routes and downloading the waypoints/tracks to the GPS. I
    will also be looking at printing out the maps for other folks coming
    on the walk (I lead walks).

    The printer I have is nothing fancy, a hp deskjet 5160
    <http://h50025.www5.hp.com/hpcom/au_en/10_35_73_1655summary.html>
    which is "rated" "up to 4800 x 1200-optimized dpi color and
    1200-input dpi."

    I am seeking advice on getting a scanner which will be used primary
    for scanning maps which will be printed on A4 sheets (slightly smaller
    than US letter size). While recommendations on models would
    interesting, I am particularly interested in advice on what spec I
    should be looking at.

    I have posted this to a few groups, so apologies if you get it more
    than once. Hoping to maximise my tapping of the pool of knowledge out
    here and share the outcomes for others who may be interested.

    Thanks
    Sir Andrew

    I was pleased with my Epson Perfection 2400 scanner - until it broke
    down. Currently awaiting a replacement from Epson.

    IMHO for scanning maps you don't need an insane resolution - I have
    scanned and printed several maps at 300dpi and the resulting prints are
    near enough to the original - my printer being an Epson Stylus Photo
    R300.

    --
    Brian

  5. On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:21:13 +0800, Andrew Priest <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    | Hi
    |
    | I have taken the plunge and have a Garmin Geko 301 on the way (thanks
    | Rami). Now in my part of the world, digital topo maps are far and few
    | between, at least at a scale good for bushwalking, so I am interested
    | in scanning paper maps and using them with Oziexplorer or similar for
    | planning routes and downloading the waypoints/tracks to the GPS. I
    | will also be looking at printing out the maps for other folks coming
    | on the walk (I lead walks).
    |
    | The printer I have is nothing fancy, a hp deskjet 5160
    | <http://h50025.www5.hp.com/hpcom/au_en/10_35_73_1655summary.html>
    | which is "rated" "up to 4800 x 1200-optimized dpi color and
    | 1200-input dpi."

    In the UK where it rains HP prints are fairly useless for outdoor work as
    the ink is not waterproof, so a drop of rain or some condensation causes
    prints to smudge. IMO even the waterproof cases we use only improve the
    situation a little. In Oz I think sweat dripping of your nose would have
    a similar deliterious effect.

    --
    Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk>
    Killfile and Anti Troll FAQs at
    http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile.

  6. On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:30:22 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    | On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:21:13 +0800, Andrew Priest <[email hidden]>
    | wrote:
    |
    | | Hi
    | |
    | | I have taken the plunge and have a Garmin Geko 301 on the way (thanks
    | | Rami). Now in my part of the world, digital topo maps are far and few
    | | between, at least at a scale good for bushwalking, so I am interested
    | | in scanning paper maps and using them with Oziexplorer or similar for
    | | planning routes and downloading the waypoints/tracks to the GPS. I
    | | will also be looking at printing out the maps for other folks coming
    | | on the walk (I lead walks).
    | |
    | | The printer I have is nothing fancy, a hp deskjet 5160
    | | <http://h50025.www5.hp.com/hpcom/au_en/10_35_73_1655summary.html>
    | | which is "rated" "up to 4800 x 1200-optimized dpi color and
    | | 1200-input dpi."
    |
    | In the UK where it rains HP prints are fairly useless for outdoor work as
    | the ink is not waterproof, so a drop of rain or some condensation causes
    | prints to smudge. IMO even the waterproof cases we use only improve the
    | situation a little. In Oz I think sweat dripping of your nose would have
    | a similar deliterious effect.

    Sorry to follow up my own post, but I just had another thought. IME
    laminating HP prints cures the smudging problem, and they last a few months
    in UK sun and rain before the colours fade. Perhaps a few days before the
    Oz sun fades them?

    --
    Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk>
    Killfile and Anti Troll FAQs at
    http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile.

  7. Dave Fawthrop said:

    On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 10:21:13 +0800, Andrew Priest <[email hidden]>
    wrote:

    | Hi
    |
    | I have taken the plunge and have a Garmin Geko 301 on the way (thanks
    | Rami). Now in my part of the world, digital topo maps are far and few
    | between, at least at a scale good for bushwalking, so I am interested
    | in scanning paper maps and using them with Oziexplorer or similar for
    | planning routes and downloading the waypoints/tracks to the GPS. I
    | will also be looking at printing out the maps for other folks coming
    | on the walk (I lead walks).
    |
    | The printer I have is nothing fancy, a hp deskjet 5160
    | <http://h50025.www5.hp.com/hpcom/au_en/10_35_73_1655summary.html>
    | which is "rated" "up to 4800 x 1200-optimized dpi color and
    | 1200-input dpi."

    For printing maps all you will need is 300dpi at 256 colours. Any more
    is overkill. Scan them at 300dpi in hi-bit colour and reduce to 256
    with your favourite picture software (lots of free ones available) to
    reduce file size and speed up handling by Ozi. Actually if you are
    using Ozi use the Image to ozf2 converter as the images will look much
    better at zooms less than 100% and Ozi will page just the bit it needs
    from the file.

    Quoted message said:


    In the UK where it rains HP prints are fairly useless for outdoor work as
    the ink is not waterproof, so a drop of rain or some condensation causes
    prints to smudge. IMO even the waterproof cases we use only improve the
    situation a little. In Oz I think sweat dripping of your nose would have
    a similar deliterious effect.

    Have you never heard of Ortlieb document cases?
    http://www.ortlieb.de/_list.php?lang=en&produkt=11&pname=map%20and%20document%20bags

    These are the canine's gonads of map cases. Waterproof weatherproof
    and last a lifetime unless you tear one on brambles. They do go a bit
    cloudy and yellow after a while but not so bad that you can't see the
    document in them. They will also stop your comercially printed map
    from fraying at the edges or getting smudgy thumb prints all over
    them.
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  8. Brian said:

    Andrew Priest <[email hidden]> wrote in
    news:[email hidden]:

    Quoted message said:

    Hi

    I have taken the plunge and have a Garmin Geko 301 on the way (thanks
    Rami). Now in my part of the world, digital topo maps are far and few
    between, at least at a scale good for bushwalking, so I am interested
    in scanning paper maps and using them with Oziexplorer or similar for
    planning routes and downloading the waypoints/tracks to the GPS. I
    will also be looking at printing out the maps for other folks coming
    on the walk (I lead walks).

    The printer I have is nothing fancy, a hp deskjet 5160
    <http://h50025.www5.hp.com/hpcom/au_en/10_35_73_1655summary.html>
    which is "rated" "up to 4800 x 1200-optimized dpi color and
    1200-input dpi."

    I am seeking advice on getting a scanner which will be used primary
    for scanning maps which will be printed on A4 sheets (slightly smaller
    than US letter size). While recommendations on models would
    interesting, I am particularly interested in advice on what spec I
    should be looking at.

    I have posted this to a few groups, so apologies if you get it more
    than once. Hoping to maximise my tapping of the pool of knowledge out
    here and share the outcomes for others who may be interested.

    Thanks
    Sir Andrew

    I was pleased with my Epson Perfection 2400 scanner - until it broke
    down. Currently awaiting a replacement from Epson.

    IMHO for scanning maps you don't need an insane resolution - I have
    scanned and printed several maps at 300dpi and the resulting prints are
    near enough to the original - my printer being an Epson Stylus Photo
    R300.


    =====================================================

    Agreed. Just about any scanner would do what you want.

    For your printed maps, you can coat them with waterproofing like silicon.

  9. On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 12:36:21 +0100, Phil Cook
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    | On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:30:22 +0100, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
    |

    | >
    | >In the UK where it rains HP prints are fairly useless for outdoor work as
    | >the ink is not waterproof, so a drop of rain or some condensation causes
    | >prints to smudge. IMO even the waterproof cases we use only improve the
    | >situation a little. In Oz I think sweat dripping of your nose would have
    | >a similar deliterious effect.
    |
    | Have you never heard of Ortlieb document cases?
    | http://www.ortlieb.de/_list.php?lang=en&produkt=11&pname=map%20and%20document%20bags
    |
    | These are the canine's gonads of map cases. Waterproof weatherproof
    | and last a lifetime unless you tear one on brambles. They do go a bit
    | cloudy and yellow after a while but not so bad that you can't see the
    | document in them. They will also stop your comercially printed map
    | from fraying at the edges or getting smudgy thumb prints all over
    | them.

    Got and used a document case. Fine for real maps. I would not trust any
    of them with a map printed on my hp printer.

    Dave F

  10. Dave Fawthrop said:

    Got and used a document case. Fine for real maps. I would not trust any
    of them with a map printed on my hp printer.


    I agree.

    A little moisture, even high humidity, inside the case and your map is
    toast.

    There are special (ie expensive) papers for inkjet printers which make
    the ink far more water resistant.

    Also, consider doing a printout on a color laser printer at a local
    copy shop.

    Happy trails,
    Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
    Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

  11. On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:04:09 GMT, Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:

    | On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:47:02 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
    | <[email hidden]> wrote:
    |
    | >Got and used a document case. Fine for real maps. I would not trust any
    | >of them with a map printed on my hp printer.
    | >
    | I agree.
    |
    | A little moisture, even high humidity, inside the case and your map is
    | toast.

    Hardly an appropriate metaphor ;-)

    Dave F

  12. Dave Fawthrop said:

    On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:04:09 GMT, Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:

    | A little moisture, even high humidity, inside the case and your map is
    | toast.

    Hardly an appropriate metaphor ;-)


    Bread pudding, then?

    Happy trails,
    Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
    Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

  13. On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 09:29:58 -0400, "Bruce W.1" <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:


    Agreed. Just about any scanner would do what you want.

    For your printed maps, you can coat them with waterproofing like silicon.


    or put them in a hole-punched poly sleeve - foldable and fileable.

    --
    All the best
    David Millen
    Xativa, Valencia
    please reply in group
    if you have to email me, remove the obvious:
    [email hidden]

  14. Gary S. said:
    Dave Fawthrop said:

    Got and used a document case. Fine for real maps. I would not trust any
    of them with a map printed on my hp printer.


    I agree.

    A little moisture, even high humidity, inside the case and your map is
    toast.

    Is there something funny about HP ink that makes it run if even waved
    at moisture? My Epson prints are fine in my Ortlieb in the incredibly
    wet British hills. A single sheet of A4 in a case is a lot more handy
    than a folded printed map. The bit I want never over the fold and it
    rolls up nice and small for stuffing in a pocket.
    --
    Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

  15. Phil Cook said:

    Is there something funny about HP ink that makes it run if even waved
    at moisture? My Epson prints are fine in my Ortlieb in the incredibly
    wet British hills. A single sheet of A4 in a case is a lot more handy
    than a folded printed map. The bit I want never over the fold and it
    rolls up nice and small for stuffing in a pocket.

    My Epson seems to do reasonably with the black ink, not so good with
    the colors around moisture.

    Happy trails,
    Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
    Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

  16. On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:04:09 GMT, Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:

    | On Sat, 17 Jul 2004 15:47:02 +0100, Dave Fawthrop
    | <[email hidden]> wrote:
    |
    | >Got and used a document case. Fine for real maps. I would not trust any
    | >of them with a map printed on my hp printer.
    | >
    | I agree.
    |
    | A little moisture, even high humidity, inside the case and your map is
    | toast.

    Experiment 1
    Part of a 1:25000 OS explorer map scanned and printed on an HP 895Cxi.

    One drop of water on surface over moorland, left to dry.
    Contours disappeared, grid line disappeared no detail at all visible in
    area of drop

    One drop of water over fields and paths, left to dry.
    Names unreadable, contours disappeared, field boundaries just visible,
    paths just visible.

    Dave F

  17. Mike Harding said:

    What about if you spray the print with hairspray or a clear
    lacquer intended for preserving drawings, can be purchased
    from art shops?


    The artist's fixative is helpful, but not 100%.

    Happy trails,
    Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
    Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom


  18. Quoted message said:

    where it rains HP prints are fairly useless for outdoor work as
    the ink is not waterproof, so a drop of rain or some condensation causes
    prints to smudge. IMO even the waterproof cases we use only improve the
    situation a little. In Oz I think sweat dripping of your nose would have
    a similar deliterious effect.

    Ortleib bags.. no problem.

    And its still raining in Scotland

    Richard Webb

  19. Gadgets said:

    If you're scanning at 100% size and don't need to enlarge, then 300DPI would
    be ample. For plain paper printing, you probably won't notice much
    difference in anything over 150DPI, but if you print photo, gloss, then
    300DPI is worthwhile. If you don't scan at 100%, be sure to include a
    scale or make sure the gridlines are clear!

    It may be wise to note that some maps use a form of dithering on the print
    (similar to newspaper photographs).

    In which case, it would be better to scan at a LOWER resolution, as each scan
    pixel will average over a larger area, and give a clearer overall result.

    If your scan is fine enough to get the dithering, it results in unclear views
    at various zoom levels.

    --
    Linux Registered User # 302622 <http://counter.li.org>

  20. David Springthorpe said:
    (RJ Webb) said:

    And its still raining in Scotland

    You mean it stops sometimes.....?


    When it is snowing?

    Happy trails,
    Gary (net.yogi.bear)
    ------------------------------------------------
    at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence

    Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
    Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.