Slagging off cyclists article.

"People generally break speed limits
because they don't think it will do any harm and most of the time it
doesn't. "

Garbage. Boring Pro-Speeding Lie #132 "Speeding is safe cos I've never
killed anyone".

Repeated here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7086290.stm

Quote:
Paul Smith, founder of campaign group Safe Speed, said: "Drivers will
rightly be concerned that they will be faced with losing their
licences for six months after two perfectly routine cases of driving
safely.

"We all know that exceeding the speed limit isn't automatically
dangerous."

Classic schoolboy howler from Small Pith. He does this every time, he
really should stop and think sometimes.

Accidents are not the baseline Smith says they are. He bases his
whiole case by twisting official data and putting it into graphs that
he claims proves he's right.

It never even occurs to him that there are any other considerations
and he has frankly admitted that his is a car- based campaign which is
why it's baffling he claims to speak for road safety. The man's
absurdly blinkered.

Speeding cars scare people off the road, divide communities, make a
Godawful noise and [censored] people off whether or not the speeding driver
scrapes a child along the asphalt.

This is hilarious, Smith had the chance to speak out against boy
racers like this man who followed Smith's advice to pick a safe speed
and left a man in a wheelchair:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7085735.stm

In refusing to condemn speeders like Jackson, Smith encourages the
crippling injuries and deaths speeding causes. He had a chance.

He blew it.

Smith has the blood of innocent road users on his hands, the new fines
are a fantastic opportunity for road safety.

45mph in a 30 zone deserves six points, if anyone is stupid enough to
do that speed twice they bloody well need to be banned from the roads.

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"We all know that exceeding the speed limit isn't automatically
dangerous."

Yep, neither is firing off a machine gun in the High Street unless some
idiots go and stand in the way.

--
Tony

?The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever
that it is not utterly absurd.?
Bertrand Russell

Nigel Cliffe said:

David Lloyd said:

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My email to [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't think your article is helpful or constructive or will make
the roads any safer, enough witless drivers share your antipathy
toward cyclists who have done nothing wrong and use their vehicles
as weapons against them.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, what he exhibits towards cyclists is not apathy, it is
malevolance. If it was apathy, he wouldn't write to express an opinion
either for or against.

Antipathy isn't the same as Apathy

- Nigel

--
Nigel Cliffe,
Webmaster athttp://www.2mm.org.uk/

Sorry - I must stop trying to speed read ;-)

David Lloyd

Tony Raven said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

"We all know that exceeding the speed limit isn't automatically
dangerous."

Yep, neither is firing off a machine gun in the High Street unless some
idiots go and stand in the way.

Amongst certain road safety advocates, I believe the proper description
for these people is "suicidal idiots".

in message
<[email hidden]>, Ekul

Namsob (') said:

Dylan Smith said:

JNugent said:

London registration scheme for bicycles. Obviously, that would be an
essential step if the institutional law-breaking by a particular
cohort of cyclists (the writer described them) is ever to be stopped.

It won't work - I don't know a single driver who doesn't routinely break
the speed limit, despite licensing and registration of vehicles.

Just because you hang around with law-breakers does not mean that
everyone drives as badly as your acquaintances. Driving over the speed
limit may well be very common. It is not, however, routine among all
drivers.

Put it differently: on the average motorway in Britain, the only motorists
not breaking the law are those held up in queues. Speeding isn't just
common, it's almost universal. For every driver you can show me who
doesn't break the speed limit in the average month, I'll show you ten pigs
who can fly across the Atlantic.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

A message from our sponsor: This site is now in free fall

in message <[email hidden]>, Ben C

(') said:

On 2007-11-08, Ekul Namsob <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Dylan Smith said:

On 2007-11-07, JNugent <[email hidden]> wrote:
> London registration scheme for bicycles. Obviously, that would be an
> essential step if the institutional law-breaking by a particular
> cohort of cyclists (the writer described them) is ever to be stopped.

It won't work - I don't know a single driver who doesn't routinely
break the speed limit, despite licensing and registration of vehicles.

Just because you hang around with law-breakers does not mean that
everyone drives as badly as your acquaintances. Driving over the speed
limit may well be very common. It is not, however, routine among all
drivers.

The vast majority though.

Quoted message said:

One problem with speed limits, like so many other traffic laws, is
simply that they are so poorly enforced that drivers can get away with
speeding for a long time.

Enforcement is not the answer. People generally break speed limits
because they don't think it will do any harm and most of the time it
doesn't.

Crush their cars, then.

Enforcement isn't working because the risk of getting caught is too small,
and if you are caught the penalties are trivial. It costs less to fill my
car with petrol than to pay a speeding fine.

Full disclosure: there's a fixed penalty notice on my desk now. It's the
third time I've been caught speeding in thirty years.

Quoted message said:

It's much rarer for drivers to run red lights because it's obviously
stupid to run red lights.

The vast majority of drivers routinely run red lights, too.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

:: Wisdom is better than weapons of war ::
:: Ecclesiastes 9:18 ::

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Put it differently: on the average motorway in Britain, the only motorists
not breaking the law are those held up in queues. Speeding isn't just
common, it's almost universal. For every driver you can show me who
doesn't break the speed limit in the average month, I'll show you ten pigs
who can fly across the Atlantic.

Show me the ten pigs then. I set my cruise control on the motorway and
stick within the speed limit. It would be hypocritical of me not to.

--
Tony

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has
taken place"
George Bernard Shaw

On 9 Nov,

Simon Brooke said:

Put it differently: on the average motorway in Britain, the only motorists
not breaking the law are those held up in queues. Speeding isn't just
common, it's almost universal. For every driver you can show me who
doesn't break the speed limit in the average month, I'll show you ten pigs
who can fly across the Atlantic.

After I got a GPS I discovered my speedo almost 10% (legal maximum) out.
Factoring that in, quite a large proportion of drivers seem to keep under the
limit, particularly now the price of fuel has escalated.

There is a minority hell bent on breaking the limit though.

On an average journey, I don't break the speed limit. Over a month, I might,
the odd time.

--
BD
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

Simon Brooke said:

in message
<[email hidden]>, Ekul

Namsob (') said:

Dylan Smith <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It won't work - I don't know a single driver who doesn't routinely break
the speed limit, despite licensing and registration of vehicles.

Just because you hang around with law-breakers does not mean that
everyone drives as badly as your acquaintances. Driving over the speed
limit may well be very common. It is not, however, routine among all
drivers.

Put it differently: on the average motorway in Britain, the only motorists
not breaking the law are those held up in queues. Speeding isn't just
common, it's almost universal. For every driver you can show me who
doesn't break the speed limit in the average month, I'll show you ten pigs
who can fly across the Atlantic.

You need to order another 10 pigs.

Like Tony, I set my cruise control on the motorway to 70 mph. Even so, I
still end up spending a lot of time in lanes 2 and 3, not just because
of lorries but also because I overtake a lot of slower moving cars.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

In article <1i7cs42.vd36yp1094s7uN%
[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

You need to order another 10 pigs.

Like Tony, I set my cruise control on the motorway to 70 mph. Even so, I
still end up spending a lot of time in lanes 2 and 3, not just because
of lorries but also because I overtake a lot of slower moving cars.

I find that too but I find the situation reverses if there is e.g. a
50mph section for roadworks (top of the M3 at present) or the variable
speed section of the M25. I set the cruise control at 50mph and
everything overtakes me.

--
Tony

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has
taken place"
George Bernard Shaw

Simon Brooke said:

Ben C ([email hidden]'😉 wrote:

[ ... ]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One problem with speed limits, like so many other traffic laws, is
simply that they are so poorly enforced that drivers can get away with
speeding for a long time.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Enforcement is not the answer. People generally break speed limits
because they don't think it will do any harm and most of the time it
doesn't.

Quoted message said:

Crush their cars, then.

Quoted message said:

Enforcement isn't working because the risk of getting caught is too small,
and if you are caught the penalties are trivial. It costs less to fill my
car with petrol than to pay a speeding fine.

Quoted message said:

Full disclosure: there's a fixed penalty notice on my desk now. It's the
third time I've been caught speeding in thirty years.

Hmmm... I'd (genuinely) say "bad luck", but given the picture you have
painted of yourself in the past (and some of the incredibly
uncharitable things you have written about "motorists"😉, I can't know
whether you were unluckily caught out for a moment's inattention or
because you were driving like an arrogant [censored]. Either is certainly
possible on the available evidence.

OTOH, there are many, myself included, who have completely clean
licences and of course do not live in daily terror of being caught at
the next speed trap - because they do our best to drive lawfully all
the time. Even so, some of us realise that the current system of
"speeding" enforcement is unrealistic, oppressive and unreasonable. In
simpler words: it's very PC. Any of us can fall a victim to it at any
time, because all of us are human and subject to human frailty.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's much rarer for drivers to run red lights because it's obviously
stupid to run red lights.

Quoted message said:

The vast majority of drivers routinely run red lights, too.

If (the Americanism?) "run" means "pass at red just as though they
were green", that's nonsense and you know it. I wouldn't even say that
the majority of cyclists do that - just the majority of cyclists in
Inner London and a rising proportion in some other places.

Quoted message said:

On 9 Nov,
Simon Brooke <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Put it differently: on the average motorway in Britain, the only motorists
not breaking the law are those held up in queues. Speeding isn't just
common, it's almost universal. For every driver you can show me who
doesn't break the speed limit in the average month, I'll show you ten pigs
who can fly across the Atlantic.

Quoted message said:

After I got a GPS I discovered my speedo almost 10% (legal maximum) out.
Factoring that in, quite a large proportion of drivers seem to keep under the
limit, particularly now the price of fuel has escalated.

I borrowed a GPS unit a few weeks ago. I was quite surprised to find
that my car speedo has to be showing 34mph before I can be sure I'm
doping more than a true 30 limit. At 70 on the speedo, I was a fair
bit under a true 70. On the motorway, I could probably do an indicated
80 before the police or the cameras were even marginally interested.

I don't doubt that this is deliberate on the part of car manufacturers
(and governments are happy with it too). It's a good psychological
ploy, because driving past a camera in a 30 at an indicated 35
(probably within the camera's tolerance zone for 30) would be
completely counter-intuitive.

Quoted message said:

There is a minority hell bent on breaking the limit though.

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

On an average journey, I don't break the speed limit. Over a month, I might,
the odd time.

Tony Raven said:

In article <1i7cs42.vd36yp1094s7uN%
[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

You need to order another 10 pigs.

Like Tony, I set my cruise control on the motorway to 70 mph. Even so, I
still end up spending a lot of time in lanes 2 and 3, not just because
of lorries but also because I overtake a lot of slower moving cars.

I find that too but I find the situation reverses if there is e.g. a
50mph section for roadworks (top of the M3 at present) or the variable
speed section of the M25. I set the cruise control at 50mph and
everything overtakes me.

That always happens. You pass a lorry doing 55 two miles before the 50
limit, then he passes you when you're doing 50.

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

45mph in a 30 zone deserves six points, if anyone is stupid enough to
do that speed twice they bloody well need to be banned from the roads.

Don't disagree with anything you say Spindrift, apart from the above.
Anyone doing 45 in a 30 zone should lose their licence. Just think, that
would get rid of so many of the arrogant, incompetent drivers at a stroke!

Quoted message said:

"spindrift" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

45mph in a 30 zone deserves six points, if anyone is stupid enough to
do that speed twice they bloody well need to be banned from the roads.

Don't disagree with anything you say Spindrift, apart from the above.
Anyone doing 45 in a 30 zone should lose their licence. Just think, that
would get rid of so many of the arrogant, incompetent drivers at a stroke!

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Don't disagree with anything you say Spindrift, apart from the above.
Anyone doing 45 in a 30 zone should lose their licence. Just think, that
would get rid of so many of the arrogant, incompetent drivers at a stroke!

Nah, they'd just carry on driving without a license and uninsured.

--
Tony

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has
taken place"
George Bernard Shaw

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Don't disagree with anything you say Spindrift, apart from the above.
Anyone doing 45 in a 30 zone should lose their licence. Just think, that
would get rid of so many of the arrogant, incompetent drivers at a stroke!

Nah, they'd just carry on driving without a license and uninsured.

--
Tony

"The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has
taken place"
George Bernard Shaw

JNugent said:

If (the Americanism?) "run" means "pass at red just as though they were
green", that's nonsense and you know it. I wouldn't even say that the
majority of cyclists do that - just the majority of cyclists in Inner
London and a rising proportion in some other places.

Unless we're including "pass at red because it's only just turned red
and we think we can squeeze through", which seems to be a common
practice in all kinds of vehicles, I'd be very surprised if it were the
majority even in Inner London (which I shall define somewhat arbitrarily
as the congestion charge zone).

My best guess is that about half of the cyclists I see will go through
red lights if there is nothing coming the other way (i.e. treating them
as if they were "stop" or "give way" signs), a small number
(stereotypical courier) will go through in "confrontational" fashion -
aware that other traffic is present but expecting to force it into
yielding right of way, and a very small number (stereotypical
"pedestrian on bike"😉 will sail through oblivious. Those are fairly
vague numbers because the cyclists I have most exposure to are generally
the ones on the same road as me and moving at the same speed - it may be
that there are vast numbers of 7mph pootlers all riding with a reckless
disregard for road safety but I never notice except when overtaking
them. But if they're the people that make this menace to society,
"lycra lout" is a total mischaracterisation.

-dan

JNugent said:

If (the Americanism?) "run" means "pass at red just as though they were
green", that's nonsense and you know it. I wouldn't even say that the
majority of cyclists do that - just the majority of cyclists in Inner
London and a rising proportion in some other places.

Unless we're including "pass at red because it's only just turned red
and we think we can squeeze through", which seems to be a common
practice in all kinds of vehicles, I'd be very surprised if it were the
majority even in Inner London (which I shall define somewhat arbitrarily
as the congestion charge zone).

My best guess is that about half of the cyclists I see will go through
red lights if there is nothing coming the other way (i.e. treating them
as if they were "stop" or "give way" signs), a small number
(stereotypical courier) will go through in "confrontational" fashion -
aware that other traffic is present but expecting to force it into
yielding right of way, and a very small number (stereotypical
"pedestrian on bike"😉 will sail through oblivious. Those are fairly
vague numbers because the cyclists I have most exposure to are generally
the ones on the same road as me and moving at the same speed - it may be
that there are vast numbers of 7mph pootlers all riding with a reckless
disregard for road safety but I never notice except when overtaking
them. But if they're the people that make this menace to society,
"lycra lout" is a total mischaracterisation.

-dan

Quoted message said:

JNugent wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If (the Americanism?) "run" means "pass at red just as though they
were green", that's nonsense and you know it. I wouldn't even say that
the majority of cyclists do that - just the majority of cyclists in
Inner London and a rising proportion in some other places.

Quoted message said:

Unless we're including "pass at red because it's only just turned red
and we think we can squeeze through", which seems to be a common
practice in all kinds of vehicles, I'd be very surprised if it were the
majority even in Inner London (which I shall define somewhat arbitrarily
as the congestion charge zone).

Two points:

(a) I deliberately distinguish drivers "shaving the red and amber"
from those going through a red as if it were green (ie, as though it
didn't apply at all). Going through on red and amber is legal (certain
conditions applying) and because none of us are blessed with sight of
the future, there will always be a few who, wanting to use the utmost
capacity of the sequence, either misjudge the remaining length of red
and amber - or don't care enough to try to judge it. There will also
be some who will go through at red, regardless, but that's a very
small number/proportion of motor vehicles. Conversely, most drivers
don't start to move quickly at the other end of the sequence. Being
(say) tenth vehicle from the lights can be a chancy business - it's
entirely possible not to get through on the next green at many London
junctions. Shaving the red and amber at least reflects a nodding
acknowledgement of the fact that red means stop. If "shaving the red
and amber" was what cyclists confined themselves to, I don't believe
there would be any criticism of them vis a vis traffic lights.

(b) I would define "Inner London" as Central London and all of the
area of the immediately adjacent boroughs (Tower Hamlets, Lewisham
(Deptford), Southwark, Lambeth, Wandsworth, Kensington and Chelsea,
Camden, Islington and Hackney. Just about the area of the old
LCC/ILEA, but I'm not sure that you could legitimately include
Greenwich (which was part of LCC/ILEA).

Quoted message said:

My best guess is that about half of the cyclists I see will go through
red lights if there is nothing coming the other way (i.e. treating them
as if they were "stop" or "give way" signs), a small number
(stereotypical courier) will go through in "confrontational" fashion -
aware that other traffic is present but expecting to force it into
yielding right of way, and a very small number (stereotypical
"pedestrian on bike"😉 will sail through oblivious. Those are fairly
vague numbers because the cyclists I have most exposure to are generally
the ones on the same road as me and moving at the same speed - it may be
that there are vast numbers of 7mph pootlers all riding with a reckless
disregard for road safety but I never notice except when overtaking
them. But if they're the people that make this menace to society,
"lycra lout" is a total mischaracterisation.

That sounds substantially in agreement with what I wrote.