Skid-stops on a fixed-wheel?

Duncan Smith said:

Since getting a fixed wheel, I started using a little back-pedaling
force/resistance on the chain to assist with rear braking. So far so
good, after a while I started using a little more, and rarely touched
the back brake at all.

Then I read about skid stops (flick the back wheel up to get some air
between the road and tyre, back pedal, and when the tyre makes contact
with the ground again, the wheel will skid until you pedal again or the
bike stops).

Since (for me) the whole point of a fixed
is subtle speed control, and a sense
of direct drive to the road, the thought
of wanting to lock the wheel and wear
my tyres out seems ... pointless.

BugBear (with cantilevers front and back on a fixed)

Duncan Smith said the following on 23/11/2006 16:49:

Quoted message said:

Then I read about skid stops (flick the back wheel up to get some air
between the road and tyre, back pedal, and when the tyre makes contact
with the ground again, the wheel will skid until you pedal again or the
bike stops).

So with growing confidence I tried a few more skid-stops out on a ride
at lunch today. Despite being a new bike with a Surly track-hub,
track-cog, and lock-ring, I found the lock-ring came undone - as did
the track-cog leaving me spinning like a top and going nowhere fast
until the spanners came out of the saddle-bag.

I thought a left-threaded lock-ring would only serve to tighten the cog
back on to the hub if anything came loose. Should I avoid skid-stops?
Anyone any tips for ensuring the rear parts of the drive-train hold
together?

I don't ride fixed, but I can't see why on earth you would want to do
all that. What's wrong with using the brakes or back-pedal pressure?
Saves a bit of tyre wear as well, I would have thought, quite apart from
having better control of the bike.

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Duncan Smith said:

I thought a left-threaded lock-ring would only serve to tighten the cog
back on to the hub if anything came loose. Should I avoid skid-stops?
Anyone any tips for ensuring the rear parts of the drive-train hold
together?

My guess is that the unscrewing that you experienced was because things
weren't tightened properly in the first place. Note that if the sprocket is
not tight enough when the lockring is fitted, it can then tighten under
pedalling leaving the lockring loose.

Anthony

"Paul Boyd" <usenet.dont.work@plusnet> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Then I read about skid stops (flick the back wheel up to get some air
between the road and tyre, back pedal, and when the tyre makes contact
with the ground again, the wheel will skid until you pedal again or the
bike stops).

I don't ride fixed, but I can't see why on earth you would want to do all
that. What's wrong with using the brakes or back-pedal pressure? Saves a
bit of tyre wear as well, I would have thought, quite apart from having
better control of the bike.

If you don't have brakes, it'll slow you down rather faster than back-pedal
pressure will. In various places people ride brakeless fixies on the road
(NY is one), and this is the fastest way to stop. Now to you or I not having
brakes seems foolish, and it's obviously illegal here, but that's not the
point...

cheers,
clive

Thanks, I'll try tightening things up a little and see if the problem
comes back. The bike shop 'Evans' did say that they didn't have a
freewheel removal tool big enough to fit the surly cog, instead they
whacked the notches on the lock-ring with a screwdriver and hammer -
maybe that was the cause of the problem.

I bought a park-tool freewheel remover from mail-order, but that was
too small too. Anyone recommend a suitable freewheel remover for surly
hubs/cogs?

Thanks,

Duncan

Anthony Jones said:

Duncan Smith said:

I thought a left-threaded lock-ring would only serve to tighten the cog
back on to the hub if anything came loose. Should I avoid skid-stops?
Anyone any tips for ensuring the rear parts of the drive-train hold
together?My guess is that the unscrewing that you experienced was because things

weren't tightened properly in the first place. Note that if the sprocket is
not tight enough when the lockring is fitted, it can then tighten under
pedalling leaving the lockring loose.

Anthony

Better to master the skill, then it's there if the situation for it
ever arose. I wasn't going to pop-skids outside the chip-shop all day
long or anything.

You could just read the thread as 'track-cog comes loose under
back-pedaling pressure'.

Regards,

Duncan.

Paul Boyd usenet.dont.work@plusnet said:

Duncan Smith said the following on 23/11/2006 16:49:

Quoted message said:

Then I read about skid stops (flick the back wheel up to get some air
between the road and tyre, back pedal, and when the tyre makes contact
with the ground again, the wheel will skid until you pedal again or the
bike stops).

Quoted message said:

So with growing confidence I tried a few more skid-stops out on a ride
at lunch today. Despite being a new bike with a Surly track-hub,
track-cog, and lock-ring, I found the lock-ring came undone - as did
the track-cog leaving me spinning like a top and going nowhere fast
until the spanners came out of the saddle-bag.

Quoted message said:

I thought a left-threaded lock-ring would only serve to tighten the cog
back on to the hub if anything came loose. Should I avoid skid-stops?
Anyone any tips for ensuring the rear parts of the drive-train hold
together?I don't ride fixed, but I can't see why on earth you would want to do

all that. What's wrong with using the brakes or back-pedal pressure?
Saves a bit of tyre wear as well, I would have thought, quite apart from
having better control of the bike.

--
Paul Boydhttp://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/

Duncan Smith said:

Thanks, I'll try tightening things up a little and see if the problem
comes back. The bike shop 'Evans' did say that they didn't have a
freewheel removal tool big enough to fit the surly cog, instead they
whacked the notches on the lock-ring with a screwdriver and hammer -
maybe that was the cause of the problem.

I bought a park-tool freewheel remover from mail-order, but that was
too small too. Anyone recommend a suitable freewheel remover for surly
hubs/cogs?

You've lost me. You use a chain whip for the sprocket, and a hook spanner
for the lockring. Do you really mean a freewheel remover?

http://www.hubjub.co.uk/etc/chainwhip.jpg
http://www.hubjub.co.uk/etc/hozanzm.jpg

The important thing is probably to re-tighten the lockring after riding for
a bit without skidding or anything (i.e. having given the sprocket a chance
to tighten up).

Anthony

Ah, I see now, it's a hook-spanner I'm after. I got confused because
it's a flip-flop hub with a freewheel on the other side, I thought a
similar tool may be required for both.

Will pick one up from the LBS and give it a go.

Many thanks,

Duncan.

Anthony Jones said:

Duncan Smith said:

Thanks, I'll try tightening things up a little and see if the problem
comes back. The bike shop 'Evans' did say that they didn't have a
freewheel removal tool big enough to fit the surly cog, instead they
whacked the notches on the lock-ring with a screwdriver and hammer -
maybe that was the cause of the problem.

Quoted message said:

I bought a park-tool freewheel remover from mail-order, but that was
too small too. Anyone recommend a suitable freewheel remover for surly
hubs/cogs?You've lost me. You use a chain whip for the sprocket, and a hook spanner

for the lockring. Do you really mean a freewheel remover?

http://www.hubjub.co.uk/etc/chainwhip.jpghttp://www.hubjub.co.uk/etc/hozanzm.jpg

The important thing is probably to re-tighten the lockring after riding for
a bit without skidding or anything (i.e. having given the sprocket a chance
to tighten up).

Anthony

Duncan Smith said:

Ah, I see now, it's a hook-spanner I'm after. I got confused because
it's a flip-flop hub with a freewheel on the other side, I thought a
similar tool may be required for both.

Will pick one up from the LBS and give it a go.

Beware of the hook spanners that might be on sale in the LBS. I struggled
with a 'Biketool'-branded universal lockring spanner (the hinged kind) for
quite some time before buying the Hozan sold by Hubjub
(http://www.hubjub.co.uk/etc/hozanzm.jpg, link from previous post).

Pricey, but well worth the money.

Regards,

-david

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:37:11 -0800, Duncan Smith wrote:

The bike shop 'Evans' did say that they didn't have a

Quoted message said:

freewheel removal tool big enough to fit the surly cog, instead they
whacked the notches on the lock-ring with a screwdriver and hammer -
maybe that was the cause of the problem.

That wasn't Evans' in West Croydon was it!? I had a similar problem with
a lock-ring they fitted coming undone - twice. Resolved it by buying the
tool (from them) and doing it myself.

Cheers
Noel

Paul Boyd said:

I don't ride fixed, but I can't see why on earth you would want to do
all that

Because it's fun?

--
Dave...

No, it was the Evans in Milton Keynes. The first time I took the bike
out I noticed a wobble on the pedal going up a hill (after about
10mins) stopped to take a look and it had threaded the crank. Took it
back to the shop and explained to one of the staff, who said that the
bike would've been assembled correctly when it left the shop, and
because I'd done some damage to the thread it wouldn't be covered under
the warranty!

Fortunately this wasn't the managers view, so you can't really hold it
against the shop. Even so, I'll probably stick to Phil Corleys next
time...

Regards,

Duncan.

Noel said:

On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:37:11 -0800, Duncan Smith wrote:The bike shop 'Evans' did say that they didn't have a

Quoted message said:

freewheel removal tool big enough to fit the surly cog, instead they
whacked the notches on the lock-ring with a screwdriver and hammer -
maybe that was the cause of the problem.That wasn't Evans' in West Croydon was it!? I had a similar problem with

a lock-ring they fitted coming undone - twice. Resolved it by buying the
tool (from them) and doing it myself.

Cheers
Noel

Excellent web-site, looks really handy. Not least for the 'Jethro
Tule'... I'll pick up a Hozan spanner from here.

On a similar subject; my ParkTool SR-1 chain-whip won't go around the
Surly cog. The bike is a Specialized Langster 07 and the spec. states
the chain is a 'KMC Z-510HX, 1/2" x 3/32'.

Do I need a 1/8 chain whip or something? The SR-1 isn't even close.

Thanks,

Duncan.

David Nutter said:

Duncan Smith said:

Ah, I see now, it's a hook-spanner I'm after. I got confused because
it's a flip-flop hub with a freewheel on the other side, I thought a
similar tool may be required for both.

Quoted message said:

Will pick one up from the LBS and give it a go.Beware of the hook spanners that might be on sale in the LBS. I struggled

with a 'Biketool'-branded universal lockring spanner (the hinged kind) for
quite some time before buying the Hozan sold by Hubjub
(http://www.hubjub.co.uk/etc/hozanzm.jpg, link from previous post).

Pricey, but well worth the money.

Regards,

-david

Duncan Smith wrote on 23/11/2006 22:06 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Excellent web-site, looks really handy. Not least for the 'Jethro
Tule'... I'll pick up a Hozan spanner from here.

On a similar subject; my ParkTool SR-1 chain-whip won't go around the
Surly cog. The bike is a Specialized Langster 07 and the spec.
states the chain is a 'KMC Z-510HX, 1/2" x 3/32'.

Do I need a 1/8 chain whip or something? The SR-1 isn't even close.

Just stand on the pedals with the back wheel held. It'll tighten up fine.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

"dkahn400" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul Boyd said:

I don't ride fixed, but I can't see why on earth you would want to do
all that

Because it's fun?

--
Dave...

Fun? Is that allowed?

Clive George said:

it'll slow you down rather faster than
back-pedal pressure will.

It will?
Thought the coefficient of sliding friction was less than that of static
friction; a "locked" wheel will not have the same retarding force as one
that is turning but "braked".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_friction

--
www.cheesesoup.myby.co.uk

soup said:

Thought the coefficient of sliding friction was less than that of static
friction; a "locked" wheel will not have the same retarding force as one
that is turning but "braked".

Completely true, but locking your leg (when skidding) allows you to apply
more force on the pedal than you would otherwise be able to.

In normal situations (decent road surface, typical gearing, legs not like
tree trunks) the difference between the coefficients of friction just
doesn't come into play when simply 'resisting', because you're nowhere near
the limit.

Anthony

Anthony Jones said:

locking your leg (when skidding) allows you to apply
more force on the pedal than you would otherwise be able to.

Eh? Once the wheel is locked it doesn't matter how much force you put on
the pedal .

--
www.cheesesoup.myby.co.uk

soup said:

Quoted message said:

locking your leg (when skidding) allows you to apply
more force on the pedal than you would otherwise be able to.

Eh? Once the wheel is locked it doesn't matter how much force you put on
the pedal .

It does: if you don't apply enough force the wheel will fail to remain
locked.

Anthony