Singlespeed/fixed gear question

Paul Hobson said:

The C. Itoh would need a new saddle, probably new wheels/hubs, and I'd
like a new headset/stem/bars/etc if I were to ride it consistently. The
frame seems to be in decent shape though.

When I looked at the first photo I cringed and muttered "dear god". That's
a good thing, meaning at first glance the bike comes across as a beater
not worth stealing. So don't baby it up where it's apparent.

Wheels straight or truable? Use them, repack the hubs and your headset.
Slap some fresh rubber on them, remove the freewheel cluster and throw a
bmx 18T freewheel on the back, grab some bmx chainring bolts and lose the
extra chainring up front. You may want to have a shop redish and move the
axle on the rear wheel to make everything line up. Get a nice bmx single
speed chain to pull it all together, even a cheap KMC from Xmart works
dandy for this.

Keep the brakes, those old centerpulls are dandy, but replace the pads
with Koolstop Continentals. Nothing else works as good on old
brakes--believe me. I'd get some new brake levers like the house brand
aero levers at Nashbar--they're on sale for a tenner and come with extra
hoods, you could even try some of those bar-top xcross levers as well.
Handlebars are personal, I like some of the newer ergo bends better, but
with nice fresh brake levers with usable hoods, you probably won't care.
Ergo bars can be impossible to fit to older clamp stems, so be warned,
some simply won't slide through.

Here's what it would cost you shopping the online sales:

15 tires
15 bmx 18T freewheel
10 bmx chain
10 new nashbar levers
10 fresh brake cables
20 whatever saddle's on sale
8 four Koolstop continentals (check eBay for these)
5 chainring bolts for single chainring (get cool coloured ones at your
local bmx/skate shop)
15 rear wheel true, dish, and axle moved
1 grease from your local autoparts shop
5 bearings

So a smidge over a hundred bucks and you've got a stealth bike with all
fresh moving parts, that nobody wants to steal.

Then save your dough and get a cheap and cheerful fixie like a Fuji or one
of those Windsor jobs being hawked for cheap on the internets. For around
$500 they're a steal--compare it to spending $200 on a set of wheels, then
having to source all the other stuff, respacing your frame, etc--you'll
come out ahead buying new (usually) in this case.

Gearing wise, I'm in Nashville which is similar in terrain. I rock a 42x18
usually and it's great. Switched back to 42x16 today and I must admit that
the 18 feels better.

Have fun!

Paul Hobson said:

Hey everyone,

I had a master plan

So did Dr. Evil.

Bill "slow evening" S.

Bill Sornson said:

Paul Hobson said:

Hey everyone,

I had a master plan

So did Dr. Evil.

Bill "slow evening" S.

haha...so does Georgia Tech!
<http://www.space.gatech.edu/CPSM_Folders/masterplan/2004CMP.pdf>

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
http://www.underthecouch.org
..:you may want to fix my email
address before you send anything:.

maxo said:

Paul Hobson said:

The C. Itoh would need a new saddle, probably new wheels/hubs, and I'd
like a new headset/stem/bars/etc if I were to ride it consistently. The
frame seems to be in decent shape though.

When I looked at the first photo I cringed and muttered "dear god". That's
a good thing, meaning at first glance the bike comes across as a beater
not worth stealing. So don't baby it up where it's apparent.

Haha me too! The best part is, I got the frame for free! You should
have seen the derailleurs. Like the rest of the bike, they were covered
in a 1 mm layer of grease and dirt and goop. It took a lot of steel
wool and about 3 hours getting the chainwheels as shiny as they are.

Quoted message said:

Wheels straight or truable? Use them, repack the hubs and your headset.
Slap some fresh rubber on them, remove the freewheel cluster and throw a
bmx 18T freewheel on the back, grab some bmx chainring bolts and lose the
extra chainring up front.

Yeah, the wheels are rusty, but I s'pose I can put some more elbow
grease into that, and then get them trued. But definitely new tires.

Quoted message said:

You may want to have a shop redish and move the
axle on the rear wheel to make everything line up. Get a nice bmx single
speed chain to pull it all together, even a cheap KMC from Xmart works
dandy for this.

Yeah, right now I've the old chain that came on it with a patch of an
old BMX chain I had. It's not so great...haha

Quoted message said:

Keep the brakes, those old centerpulls are dandy, but replace the pads
with Koolstop Continentals. Nothing else works as good on old
brakes--believe me. I'd get some new brake levers like the house brand
aero levers at Nashbar--they're on sale for a tenner and come with extra
hoods, you could even try some of those bar-top xcross levers as well.

Yeah. I think the brakes are fine except for the pads/cables. I'd like
to really take them apart and clean them

Quoted message said:

Handlebars are personal, I like some of the newer ergo bends better, but
with nice fresh brake levers with usable hoods, you probably won't care.
Ergo bars can be impossible to fit to older clamp stems, so be warned,
some simply won't slide through.

The stem/bars are definitely narrower than what's available today. I
thinking I would replace all that.

Quoted message said:

<prices snipped>

Quoted message said:

Then save your dough and get a cheap and cheerful fixie like a Fuji or one
of those Windsor jobs being hawked for cheap on the internets. For around
$500 they're a steal--compare it to spending $200 on a set of wheels, then
having to source all the other stuff, respacing your frame, etc--you'll
come out ahead buying new (usually) in this case.

Hmmm...the more I ponder it after reading your response, I should wait
on the fixie. I might move to Austin soon. I worry about that when I
get there. Between my 2 bikes, the two bikes my girlfriend keeps at my
place and 1 bike/roommate x 2 roommates, there's a shortage of real
estate in our home right now.

Quoted message said:

Gearing wise, I'm in Nashville which is similar in terrain. I rock a 42x18
usually and it's great. Switched back to 42x16 today and I must admit that
the 18 feels better.

Have fun!

Maxo,

Thanks for the great response. It really was helpful. I'm going to go
Buy tickets for the Sleater-Kinney show tonight. My LBS and a skate/bmx
are right next to the venue. I'll take the single-speed over (it's
longest journey yet) and check things out.

mad props distributed accordingly,

\\paul

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
http://www.underthecouch.org
..:you may want to fix my email
address before you send anything:.

"Paul Hobson"

Quoted message said:

I had a master plan:

Quoted message said:

money/space/time by keeping it down to two bikes. But, I worried about
longer trips around the city. A lot of ATL terrain currently seems too
difficulty for a fixie (I'm worried about the downhills, not up). I'd
keep front brakes on it, so I'm curious if I'd do myself better to just
buy more security for 'a' bike than dropping ~100 bucks on a better,
older bike on eBay or the like.

The C. Itoh would need a new saddle, probably new wheels/hubs, and I'd
like a new headset/stem/bars/etc if I were to ride it consistently. The
frame seems to be in decent shape though.

Here are some photos:
<http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg611a/drop_out.JPG>
<http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg611a/bike_CItoh.JPG>

Hi Paul,

I don't think those dropouts are strong enough for a fixed gear hub - the
forces on the frame are much higher than for a geared bike.

You might want to take the frame to a good bike store - where there's
someone who knows about street riding on a fixie.

Cheers,
paul

Paul Hobson said:

Hey everyone,

I had a master plan:

I have:
a) 1 "nice" (by my standards) road bike that I use for "cycling" (K2
Mach 1.0) and
b) 1 CRAPPY C.Itoh from the 70's. I took of the derailleurs, shortened
the chain and made it a single speed for quick rainy-day rides to class.
It still sucks

I also wanted:
c) 1 fixed-gear bike (for the hell of it) and
d) 1 older everyday road bike that I wouldn't worry about locking up for
long periods of time in downtown Atlanta.

Since I live in a small space and don't have much moving capacity
(graduation isn't far off) I'm thinking I should combine 'b', 'c', and 'd'.

The C. Itoh has a rear-dropout suitable for single speed/fixed gear use
(ie, I don't need a tensioner). And obviously, I'd be saving
money/space/time by keeping it down to two bikes. But, I worried about
longer trips around the city. A lot of ATL terrain currently seems too
difficulty for a fixie (I'm worried about the downhills, not up). I'd
keep front brakes on it, so I'm curious if I'd do myself better to just
buy more security for 'a' bike than dropping ~100 bucks on a better,
older bike on eBay or the like.

The C. Itoh would need a new saddle, probably new wheels/hubs, and I'd
like a new headset/stem/bars/etc if I were to ride it consistently. The
frame seems to be in decent shape though.

Here are some photos:
<http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg611a/drop_out.JPG>
<http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg611a/bike_CItoh.JPG>

Any advice, help, anecdotal humor, etc would be so awesome! thanks!!!
\\paul

I would be concerned with the rust on those dropouts, you might want to
do some sanding in that area, to make sure that it's only surface rust,
if it is, get a spraybomb of rust paint (like Tremclad or Rustoleum),
and give those areas some paint, doesn't matter what colour, as long as
you can get a coat of paint on it, so it doesn't rust more. You don't
want to spend money on it, then have the dropout fail because of
excessive rust.

If the frame is reasonably light and solid, then no problem, you can
also strip it, then give the whole thing a coat of paint, especially if
you find a paint that is a similar colour to the existing. Scrape off
the decals, if you paint the whole thing. Then build it back up.

W

Paul R said:

"Paul Hobson"

Quoted message said:

I had a master plan:

Quoted message said:

money/space/time by keeping it down to two bikes. But, I worried about
longer trips around the city. A lot of ATL terrain currently seems too
difficulty for a fixie (I'm worried about the downhills, not up). I'd
keep front brakes on it, so I'm curious if I'd do myself better to just
buy more security for 'a' bike than dropping ~100 bucks on a better,
older bike on eBay or the like.

The C. Itoh would need a new saddle, probably new wheels/hubs, and I'd
like a new headset/stem/bars/etc if I were to ride it consistently. The
frame seems to be in decent shape though.

Here are some photos:
<http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg611a/drop_out.JPG>
<http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg611a/bike_CItoh.JPG>

Hi Paul,

I don't think those dropouts are strong enough for a fixed gear hub - the
forces on the frame are much higher than for a geared bike.

You might want to take the frame to a good bike store - where there's
someone who knows about street riding on a fixie.

I wouldn't worry about the dropouts. Worst case forces on the dropouts
come from highest chain tension, which comes from lowest gears. That
bike, with a current double, sees greater dropout loads than it will
after conversion. This is why QR's work fine on fixers.

Old sport-tourer frames make great fixed gear conversions because
they're built like tanks, have good frame/brake clearances and (of
course) horizontal dropouts. Old wheels can sometimes be a reliability
issue, and old brake levers aren't that comfortable. I like having 2
brakes, especially if I'm not using a real track hub.

"Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul R said:

"Paul Hobson"

Quoted message said:

I had a master plan:

Quoted message said:

money/space/time by keeping it down to two bikes. But, I worried about
longer trips around the city. A lot of ATL terrain currently seems too
difficulty for a fixie (I'm worried about the downhills, not up). I'd
keep front brakes on it, so I'm curious if I'd do myself better to just
buy more security for 'a' bike than dropping ~100 bucks on a better,
older bike on eBay or the like.

The C. Itoh would need a new saddle, probably new wheels/hubs, and I'd
like a new headset/stem/bars/etc if I were to ride it consistently. The
frame seems to be in decent shape though.

Here are some photos:
<http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg611a/drop_out.JPG>
<http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gtg611a/bike_CItoh.JPG>

Hi Paul,

I don't think those dropouts are strong enough for a fixed gear hub -

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

forces on the frame are much higher than for a geared bike.

You might want to take the frame to a good bike store - where there's
someone who knows about street riding on a fixie.

I wouldn't worry about the dropouts. Worst case forces on the dropouts
come from highest chain tension, which comes from lowest gears. That
bike, with a current double, sees greater dropout loads than it will
after conversion. This is why QR's work fine on fixers.

So why do all fixed hubs come with solid axles and nuts? (I'm not trying to
be snarky - i'm pleased to be better informed and corrected if I'm wrong)

It might see higher peak loads with the double, but those times are very
rare.

When riding with a multi geared bike, one typically starts in a lower gear.
The highest forces do come from the highest gears, but the rider rarely
starts off in a high gear.

With a single speed, and especially a fixed, those forces are applied to the
frame through the dropouts every time the rider starts, slows down using
the pedals (fixed) or significantly changes speed,

Those dropouts are pretty flimsy looking to me, and I'd expect them to
slowly deflect and eventually fail.

I've seen it happen. All I'm telling the OP is that I think he should get
some professional advice before going ahead.

Paul

Paul R said:

So why do all fixed hubs come with solid axles and nuts? (I'm not trying to
be snarky - i'm pleased to be better informed and corrected if I'm wrong)

Because most of them are track hubs, and QR's are illegal at most tracks.

Quoted message said:

It might see higher peak loads with the double, but those times are very
rare.

The rear axle has to carry the load of the chain tension on the dropout.
The chain tension is proportional to the pedal force scaled by the ratio
of the crank length to chainring radius -- it's simple leverage.

Quoted message said:

When riding with a multi geared bike, one typically starts in a lower gear.
The highest forces do come from the highest gears, but the rider rarely
starts off in a high gear.

The highest dropout forces come from the *lowest* (front) gear.

Quoted message said:

With a single speed, and especially a fixed, those forces are applied to the
frame through the dropouts every time the rider starts, slows down using
the pedals (fixed) or significantly changes speed,

Brake torque, using the legs, is usually not as high as forward torque.
For forward torque, it doesn't matter whether you're accelerating,
climbing, sprinting or whatever, the maximum force comes with maximum
chain tension, which comes from maximum pedal force.

Quoted message said:

Those dropouts are pretty flimsy looking to me, and I'd expect them to
slowly deflect and eventually fail.

I've seen it happen. All I'm telling the OP is that I think he should get
some professional advice before going ahead.

I've never seen it happen, and it shouldn't -- if the dropouts are
strong enough for multi-speed operation, they're strong enough for
single-speed.

If he wants "professional advice" he should Google Sheldon Brown's fixed
gear articles. Sheldon built my first fixer -- on an old sport-tourer
frame, with QR. I cracked that frame, but not at the dropouts --
climbing out of the saddle in a fixer as much as you do puts a lot of
torque on a frame (the classic way frames die), my frame cracked at the
headtube, along the lug contour -- a very typical failure. At my size
and weight (6'10"/235) I'm sort of worst case. No problem with dropouts
or QR slip, though -- on that frame or its replacement (another old
sport-tourer).

Paul said:

So why do all fixed hubs come with solid axles and nuts? (I'm not > trying to
be snarky - i'm pleased to be better informed and corrected if I'm > wrong)

Quoted message said:

It might see higher peak loads with the double, but those times are very
rare.

Quoted message said:

When riding with a multi geared bike, one typically starts in a lower gear.
The highest forces do come from the highest gears, but the rider rarely
starts off in a high gear.

The axles come nutted mainly for tradition/style reasons. Proper track
bikes are not allowed to have QR axles for claimed reasons that they
represent an impalement risk in a crash, but really because track folks
are pretty retro-grouch. (nothing wrong with that mind you) While
it's true that a nutted axle can clamp tighter than a QR, a QR clamps
tight enough that it doesn't matter. I suspect a side benefit with a
nutted axle is that it is easier to respace for different rear spacings
which is a common issue on fixed-gear conversions.

And the force generated at the axle is indeed highest in a low gear,
not a high one. Imagine a simplified drive-train, you have a single
lever attached to the rear hub. A longer lever (bigger and thus lower
gear) will allow you to put more torque on the hub, a shorter lever
will limit the torque. If you extend this model and add a second
lever and a connecting rod (bb, chainring, and chain) you will see that
the relative sizes of teh levers determines the torque (and thus chain
tension which is the real thing we are looking at).

Even if you do not accecpt the above reasoning, most bicycle have
gears that are both higher and lower than a fixed gear, so explain how
a QR would work there and not for a fixed?

Fixed gears have the added force of being able to back-pedal for
braking, but the amount of force that can be applied while back
pedaling is smaller than can be applied forward and so is of no concern
for this model. Furthur, the force is significantly less than can be
seen on bicycles with disc brakes, which also work fine with QRs.

-Tim

Fixed gear riding sounds scarier on paper than in real life. I ride
fixed almost exclusively now in pittsburgh which is about as hilly as
cities come. There are a handful of hills (>15% for more than a few
hundred yards) that I basically can't ride up, but honestly they are
rare and easily avoided. Going down is not as hard as people claim,
provided that you have brakes and are not relying on back pressure. It
takes a bit of effort to prevent yourself from being tossed off the
saddle, but give it 3 rides and it'll seem totally natural.

I run 42x16 which is a reasonable balance. I'd like to get strong
enough that I can push 44x16 uphill because it would be nicer on the
flats, but there is this one last hill up to work that is a complete
bear.

check www.fixedgeargallery.com for inspiration

Cheers

-Tim

buckyllama said:

Fixed gear riding sounds scarier on paper than in real life. I ride
fixed almost exclusively now in pittsburgh which is about as hilly as
cities come. There are a handful of hills (>15% for more than a few
hundred yards) that I basically can't ride up, but honestly they are
rare and easily avoided. Going down is not as hard as people claim,
provided that you have brakes and are not relying on back pressure. It
takes a bit of effort to prevent yourself from being tossed off the
saddle, but give it 3 rides and it'll seem totally natural.

I run 42x16 which is a reasonable balance. I'd like to get strong
enough that I can push 44x16 uphill because it would be nicer on the
flats, but there is this one last hill up to work that is a complete
bear.

check www.fixedgeargallery.com for inspiration

Cheers

-Tim

Tim,

Thanks for the response/general info. Right now, I looking to simply
get the bike working again (it did until I took the whole thing apart).
I trying to get the cottered (sp??) cranks off right now with no luck.
Once I get all the general stuff done (new saddle, stem/bars, brakes,
etc) then I'll decide if I want to go fixed gear or not.

Now, I don't know what's worse: me riding a fixed gear b/c it's "cool"
in Atlanta right now, or me /not/ riding a fixed gear because I don't
want the "cool" kids to think I'm trying to be like them. Oh my...such
first world problems I have...

--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
http://www.underthecouch.org
..:you may want to fix my email
address before you send anything:.