Sidewalk bicycling?

Quoted message said:

I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to
work and do a mix of roads, trails and some sidewalk. I don't see how
a long stretch of empty sidewalk parralel to a busy road would
considered 'unsafe'? As you long as you treat yourself as invisible
at each intersection, the sidewalk should be safer, no? I also like
sidewalk since I don't have to keep checking my mirrors to see if
cars are passing me correctly. It is more relaxing. Am I missing
something? I realize it is not as fast as road cycling, but if I
cared abuot time, I would be driving...

1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for fast-
movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because a bike is
so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to ride is to
always be predictable.

2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually a
multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.

3) The law. Riding on the sidewalk is illegal in many places, moreso
the closer one gets to city centers, as a rule.

Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
road apply.

r

rdclark said:

1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for
fast movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because
a bike is so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to
ride is to always be predictable.

All you have to do is watch out for the cars backing out of the
driveway and you are fine. If a cyclist is not capable of this
minimal situal awareness, how are they safer on the road?

Quoted message said:

2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually
a multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.

I bought a little horn for my bike and so far it works great. If I do
come accross that ipod blasting pedestrian, ill just make sure I pass
them slowly.

If someone does not have a horn, why would you put them on the road?

Quoted message said:

3) The law. Riding on the sidewalk is illegal in many places,
moreso the closer one gets to city centers, as a rule.

Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
correct ).

Quoted message said:

Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
road apply.

If we can share the road with cars, why can't we share sidewalks with
pedestrians? My point is it is fine to bike on the sidewalk as long
as you ride as if you are invisible. Do we agree there?

Quoted message said:

rdclark said:

1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for
fast movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because
a bike is so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to
ride is to always be predictable.

All you have to do is watch out for the cars backing out of the
driveway and you are fine. If a cyclist is not capable of this
minimal situal awareness, how are they safer on the road?

Quoted message said:

2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually
a multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.

I bought a little horn for my bike and so far it works great. If I do
come accross that ipod blasting pedestrian, ill just make sure I pass
them slowly.

If someone does not have a horn, why would you put them on the road?

Quoted message said:

3) The law. Riding on the sidewalk is illegal in many places,
moreso the closer one gets to city centers, as a rule.

Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
correct ).

Quoted message said:

Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
road apply.

If we can share the road with cars, why can't we share sidewalks with
pedestrians? My point is it is fine to bike on the sidewalk as long
as you ride as if you are invisible. Do we agree there?

Huh?

Quoted message said:

Makes sense in downtowns of big cities,
but 99% of sidewalks hardly
have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA.
( Ok I just pulled that number from the air,
but I would not be surprised if it is correct ).

Are you channeling [censored] Pound?

The only time its appropriate for the bike to be on the sidewalk is
when you're sitting outside at a cafe/restaurant having a meal and
beverage after a ride.

You are over 12 years of age, no?

-bdbafh

bdbafh said:

The only time its appropriate for the bike to be on the sidewalk is
when you're sitting outside at a cafe/restaurant having a meal and
beverage after a ride.

You are over 12 years of age, no?

-bdbafh

I don't know of any cyclists that haven't used the sidewalk to ride,
though most only do it (where safe) for a few meters.

I've been at some intersections that were just so weird that it was
better to cross the street and ride (uphill) on the opposite side of
the street sidewalk so I can go left. Believe me, I do -not- like
doing that, but it happens. Sometimes, I'll turn right and then go
make a safe U-Turn, and come through the problem intersection from 90
degrees. Ever had to do that? 🙂

I've also ridden in areas where they've modified the sidewalks (which
are very wide) and have them listed as -part- of the bike route, with
arrows and lines painted on the sidewalk. (problem is, coming up to a
divided highway intersection, riding back home, going against traffic.
Yikes!)

If every state does it differently and within the state it differs,
how does one keep up with it all? Better to let the bicycle rider
determine if it's necessary or safe(er), imo.

I'm certainly not advocating it. Best to keep it unstated and
practiced infrequently, maybe. No reason to be smug about it, though.

<[email hidden]> wrote: (clip) If we can share the road with cars,
why can't we share sidewalks with pedestrians? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And by an extension of that logic, why not also let cars share sidewalks
with bikes and pedestrians?

I ride on the sidewalk occasionally, if the road conditions make it
preferable (in MY mind,) but I know it is not legally justifiable, and I
lean way over backwards (figuratively) to make sure I do not cause any
problems. Furthermore, if there were a problem, I know in advance whose
fault it would be.

Biker52 said:

Sometimes, I'll turn right and then go
make a safe U-Turn, and come through the problem intersection from 90
degrees. Ever had to do that? 🙂

Yes; it's called a Michigan Left.

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [email hidden]
(_)/ (_)

To the OP: I ride in mostly residential areas. Sidewalks are a royal
pain to navigate when running on road bike tires. As bad as the roadway
may be, it is always smoother for me to ride on the road. Probably
nearly everybody rides on the sidewalk sometimes. If you are new to
cycling, it may seem like it is a terrific idea to ride on the sidewalk,
but after you have ridden for a while and get more comfortable on the
road, you will understand what everyone's saying on this thread.

Quoted message said:

Yes; it's called a Michigan Left.

In Detroit they have signs notifying drivers that this is the
preferred method of turning left at upcoming intersections.

Sometimes I find my self making "michigan straights", right, u and
then right turns to circumvent a traffic control device. There are
not many intersections where this is warranted, but when it is it is.

There are someplaces where the sidewalk is marked as a bike path, a
MUP if you will... These things are generally chuck full of peds,
sk8tors, and dog feces. I guess I like my odds with the nimrods in
hotrods better. Also, few places post a speed limit on a MUP, but
conventional wisdom tells us that it would be bad to run over a ped no
matter how wobbly their line was - so people tend to go slower, say
15mph, on these sidewalks.
YMMV, if you are happy riding on the sidewalk and Barney Fife will
leave you alone then why would I twist my nickers over it. There are
places where I do it (like to get to my alley which doesn't have a
break in the median).

"catzz66" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

To the OP: I ride in mostly residential areas. Sidewalks are a royal
pain to navigate when running on road bike tires. As bad as the roadway
may be, it is always smoother for me to ride on the road. Probably nearly
everybody rides on the sidewalk sometimes. If you are new to cycling, it
may seem like it is a terrific idea to ride on the sidewalk, but after you
have ridden for a while and get more comfortable on the road, you will
understand what everyone's saying on this thread.

good point catzz66

rdclark said:

Quoted message said:

I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to

Quoted message said:

1) Driveways.

Quoted message said:

2) Pedestrians.

Quoted message said:

3) The law.

And of course, there's:

Mailboxes
Tricycles
Toys
Hoses
Trash, out of and in
Trash cans
Shrubbery
Gates
Parked cars
Kids on bikes
Other sidewalk cyclists going the opposite directions
Signs
Irregular pavement
and my personal favorite: low-hanging tree branches.

Bill

------------------------------------------------
| We should invade their countries, kill their |
| leaders, and convert them to Christianity! |
| --Ann Coulter |
------------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to
work and do a mix of roads, trails and some sidewalk. I don't see how
a long stretch of empty sidewalk parralel to a busy road would
considered 'unsafe'?

One word: "driveways"

Quoted message said:

As you long as you treat yourself as invisible at each intersection,

Read: "each driveway"

--

John ([email hidden])

Leo Lichtman said:

<[email hidden]> wrote: (clip) If we can share the road with cars,
why can't we share sidewalks with pedestrians? (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And by an extension of that logic, why not also let cars share sidewalks
with bikes and pedestrians?

Or, in a similar vein: why not expect cars to safely share the road with
bicycles and pedestrians? Why is it the non-motorized transportation
that get treated as second class?

--

John ([email hidden])

Quoted message said:

rdclark said:

Quoted message said:

I don't understand why all cycling websites blast sidewalk cycling as
the 'most unsafe' way to cycle? I have started to commute 12 miles to

1) Driveways.
2) Pedestrians.
3) The law.

And of course, there's:

Mailboxes
Tricycles
Toys
Hoses
Trash, out of and in
Trash cans
Shrubbery
Gates
Parked cars
Kids on bikes
Other sidewalk cyclists going the opposite directions
Signs
Irregular pavement
and my personal favorite: low-hanging tree branches.

Good list. For more detail on one item: The "irregular pavement"
often includes the edge of the sidewalk itself. It's often a sharp,
square dropoff into grass. If you weave and your front wheel drops
off that thing, you're almost certainly going down.

Overall, the safety record of sidewalk cycling is dismal. This has
been studied a few times by different researchers. IIRC, they've
found riding on sidewalks to be anywhere from about 2.5 to 13 times as
dangerous as riding on roads.

Those numbers are by memory. If anyone's really interested, I can try
to dig out the exact numbers with citations.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Overall, the safety record of sidewalk cycling is dismal. This has
been studied a few times by different researchers. IIRC, they've
found riding on sidewalks to be anywhere from about 2.5 to 13 times as
dangerous as riding on roads.

Here are a few problems I have with these studies:

1) There are a lot more sidewalk cyclist than road cyclists so
naturally
accidents will be higher for them

2) Sidewalk cyclists are mostly kids while road cyclists are far more
mature and aware of their surroundings

3) Nearly all sidewalk accidents you can walk up from, but a road
accident has much more serious consequences. So I would take 13 wipe
outs on the sidewalk to being hit just once on the road !

What are some good websites that explain how to commute safely on the
road, perhaps I am doing something wrong that makes me perceive it as
unsafe in CERTAIN situations?

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

rdclark said:

1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for
fast movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because
a bike is so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to
ride is to always be predictable.

All you have to do is watch out for the cars backing out of the
driveway and you are fine. If a cyclist is not capable of this
minimal situal awareness, how are they safer on the road?

Actually, no.

The basic problem with sidewalk riding is that it works fine, AS LONG AS
YOU TRAVEL AT PEDESTRIAN SPEEDS.

That's about 0-10 km/h. Maybe 15 km/h if you're really careful. Hint: if
you were that careful, you probably wouldn't ride on the sidewalk.

Where you're going to run into problems (and the fact you haven't
realized it suggests how sidewalk riders get into trouble) is with
vehicles ENTERING driveways and turning (especially right) at
intersections. In each of these cases, the driver is expecting to look
for pedestrians within a very short distance of the road (typically,
they're thinking within a few feet of the roadway).

You're able to come from a long way out, if you're traveling at faster
than ped speeds. It's even worse than it seems, what with stopping
distances increasing with an exponent greater than 1. Or some such. I'm
a bit bizarre at maths, so the key is that doubling one's speed more
than doubles the stopping distance. Which means you not only show up
when you're least expected, you have less chance (than a ped) of coming
up short.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually
a multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.

I bought a little horn for my bike and so far it works great. If I do
come accross that ipod blasting pedestrian, ill just make sure I pass
them slowly.

Quoted message said:

If someone does not have a horn, why would you put them on the road?

You're imposing on the safety of pedestrians for your own (false sense
of) safety. If you don't think there's a good reason for this, let me
tell you about an acquaintance who died in a cyclist-rollerblader
collision.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3) The law. Riding on the sidewalk is illegal in many places,
moreso the closer one gets to city centers, as a rule.

Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
correct ).

Oh, who knows, really? But the key is that any one sidewalk rider is
probably a lot like the other sidewalk riders

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
road apply.

If we can share the road with cars, why can't we share sidewalks with
pedestrians? My point is it is fine to bike on the sidewalk as long
as you ride as if you are invisible. Do we agree there?

Given that such a parameter should keep you at or below pedestrian
speeds, might I suggest stepping off your bicycle and walking?

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

Quoted message said:

rdclark said:

1) Driveways. Cars entering or leaving them aren't looking for
fast movers on the sidewalk. Sidewalk riding is dangerous because
a bike is so different from the expected traffic. The safest way to
ride is to always be predictable.

All you have to do is watch out for the cars backing out of the
driveway and you are fine. If a cyclist is not capable of this
minimal situal awareness, how are they safer on the road?

No, that's not it. You also have to worry about drivers driving into
driveways, without looking for you on the sidewalk. This is especially
stupid if there are trees or parked cars blocking the driver's view of
you -- but the plain fact is that he/she would not be looking for you on
the sidewalk, because you belong on the road.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2) Pedestrians. Sidewalks are for them. They have a right to assume
there won't be any vehicles using a sidewalk (unless it's actually
a multi-use path). And they often make sudden unpredictable moves.

I bought a little horn for my bike and so far it works great.

I could do that with a car, or a motorcycle, as well, both of which come
with horns. That does not make it safe, nor legal.

Quoted message said:

Makes sense in downtowns of big cities, but 99% of sidewalks hardly
have anyone walking/biking on them in the USA. ( Ok I just pulled
that number from the air, but I would not be surprised if it is
correct ).

Just the occasional little kid, who will not expect you to come
barreling down the sidewalk. Don't you get it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bicyclists are not pedestrians. They're vehicles. The rules of the
road apply.

If we can share the road with cars, why can't we share sidewalks with
pedestrians? My point is it is fine to bike on the sidewalk as long
as you ride as if you are invisible. Do we agree there?

Nope.

Quoted message said:

--

David L. Johnson

"Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The common
welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence,
were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of
water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
--Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"

Biker52 said:

I don't know of any cyclists that haven't used the sidewalk to ride,
though most only do it (where safe) for a few meters.

This guy isn't talking about a few meters.

Quoted message said:

I've been at some intersections that were just so weird that it was
better to cross the street and ride (uphill) on the opposite side of
the street sidewalk so I can go left. Believe me, I do -not- like
doing that, but it happens. Sometimes, I'll turn right and then go
make a safe U-Turn, and come through the problem intersection from 90
degrees. Ever had to do that? 🙂

Sure, and I have also gotten off my bike and walked across a busy
street. You do what is necessary. But riding along, for several
blocks, on a sidewalk is not necessary, and not safe.

Quoted message said:

I've also ridden in areas where they've modified the sidewalks (which
are very wide) and have them listed as -part- of the bike route, with
arrows and lines painted on the sidewalk.

That was mentioned earlier as an exception. That is when a sidewalk is
not a sidewalk, but a MUP.

--

David L. Johnson

"Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The common
welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence,
were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of
water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
--Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"

John Thompson said:

Or, in a similar vein: why not expect cars to safely share the road with
bicycles and pedestrians? Why is it the non-motorized transportation
that get treated as second class?

True enough, but you're pissin' upwind with that idea. People think
they are minor dictators when they get behind the wheel. Their rights
are so much more important than the rights of anyone else. And the rest
of us let them get away with it. Listen to what happens when a car
turns onto the road. Everyone grabs their kids and dogs, and runs for
cover. A car is coming! Oh, my god! Run for your life! I am so tired
of that.

--

David L. Johnson

"Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The common
welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence,
were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of
water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
--Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"

Quoted message said:

Here are a few problems I have with these studies:

1) There are a lot more sidewalk cyclist than road cyclists so
naturally
accidents will be higher for them

What? No.

Quoted message said:

2) Sidewalk cyclists are mostly kids while road cyclists are far more
mature and aware of their surroundings

Kids under 12 on kids' bikes are not what we are talking about.

Quoted message said:

3) Nearly all sidewalk accidents you can walk up from,

Maybe the pedestrian you hit won't, or, if it's a car that is turning
right and hits you, maybe not.

Quoted message said:

accident has much more serious consequences. So I would take 13 wipe
outs on the sidewalk to being hit just once on the road !

Don't over-dramatize. You presume that sidewalk accidents are minor,
but road accidents are major. Not necessarily the case. Not counting
falls due to road surface problems, I can think of 3 accidents with cars
I've had on the road (while riding). None were major. None on the
sidewalk, seeing as how I don't ride there (beyond a few meters
occasionally while coming to a shop or some such thing).

Quoted message said:

What are some good websites that explain how to commute safely on the
road, perhaps I am doing something wrong that makes me perceive it as
unsafe in CERTAIN situations?

I would suggest that, yes, you are. Granted, there are roads that are
unsafe to ride on. Most of those would be even more unsafe to ride next
to on a sidewalk. Those would be busy roads, and there would be
driveways and intersections.

--

David L. Johnson

"Business!" cried the Ghost. "Mankind was my business. The common
welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence,
were, all, my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of
water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!"
--Dickens, "A Christmas Carol"