Side-lying drills and shoulder impingement

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi,

Is there a way that I can reduce the shoulder impingement I get when I do side-lying drills
(e.g. the shark fin drill)? Should I rotate my hand so that my palm is not facing down to the
bottom of the pool? Or does the fact that I'm getting a sore shoulder indicate that I'm doing
something wrong?

Thanks in advance.

Adrian.

Pointing the thumb down towards the bottom of the pool does create extra strain on the shoulder. Our
coach was just correcting my triathlete friend about that last week, have your hand flat, palm
parallel to the bottom. She commented this morning how her shoulder stopped hurting, and said it
*was* because of how she was holding the hand.

So, it's possible.

Whenever one of my swimmers reports the kind of pain that makes me think some kind of "impingement"
is taking place, the first change I make in their freestyle is to turn the hand to a "thumb up"
entry instead of "little finger up". About half the time that addresses the pain successfully. As
long as the swimmer turns the palm to face down to the bottom of the pool as they press down into a
catch, I don't think the way they "enter" the water impairs their efficiency a bit.

If pain persists, I may change their shoulder roll to include a greater degree of rotation - prehaps
150 or 160 degrees instead of the more common 120. I may also advise an anti-inflamatory and ice
before and after practice. If the pain still persists I may ask them to have an x-ray of the
shoulder joint to see if their anatomy is simply prone to impingement.

Often I'll also ask them to keep a log in terms of their daily activities to see if something
presents itself as far as effecting their shoulders is concerned. Last week one of my male swimmers
- who reported shoulder pain all summer - confided in me that he had been at his computer playing
video games 8 hours a day, every day, all summer. He's put up his mouse now that the school year is
about to start and has reported the shoulder pain is abating.

You just never know.

Scott

Scott,

Thanks for the good advice but can you expand on what you mean by "shoulder roll"? Are you talking
about the amount of roll from side to side along the axis of the body?

As for taking note of my activities, it seems to me that it is these side-lying drills that are the
greatest problem for me. Last week I started doing them again after several weeks of not bothering
with them and immediately my shoulder reacted badly to them. I was wondering if doing the drills
with my thumb upwards would help reduce the problem - it seems like it would mean less impingement
and reduce any tendency to use the outstretched hand for support.

Regards,

Adrian.

"Scott Lemley" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Whenever one of my swimmers reports the kind of pain that makes me think some kind of
"impingement" is taking place, the first change I make in their freestyle is to turn the hand to
a "thumb up" entry instead of "little finger up". About half the time that addresses the pain
successfully. As long as the swimmer turns the palm to face down to the bottom of the pool as
they press down into a catch, I don't think the way they "enter" the water impairs their
efficiency a bit.

My friend is a kinesiologist (among couple of other things), and he showed me quite efficently how
thimb down over-rotates the shoulder into an awkward position and one with more strain on the weaker
parts. It also does something to irritate a nerve that lays somewhere atthe upper attachement of the
bicep, which is up high, I think just below the collar bone. (he showed me on an anatomical chart
where it is, I'm not sure how to describe it well from the memory.

Our coach likes the middle finger hand entry, defenately not the tumb down entry. I keep wondering
abouty the flat hand entry, and surface resistance... vs. hand entry almost leading with a pinky
fionger, with a hand turning into catch position just as (after) it breaks the water surface... Sort
of slice into the water rather than slap it with your hand. (well, slap may be a bit of
exaggeration, but I think you catch the drift of what I mean).

Quoted message said:

If pain persists, I may change their shoulder roll to include a greater degree of rotation -
prehaps 150 or 160 degrees instead of the more common 120. I may also advise an anti-inflamatory
and ice before and after practice.

I'm always told to alternate hot and cold.... Not cold only, not hot only. One soothes the pain (I
think that is hot) the other one promotes circulation, and aids healing.

Also, my kinesiologist friend was talking to out coach just few days ago about something that nor
totating enough has to do with a shoulder strain, something about not allowing the shoulder to
extend properly, and putting extra strain on just one part of it. I'm gonna have to ask him to
repeat all that. It was very interesting... He even had one of our better swimmers (with a sore
shoulder) jump back in the water and dtry it. Under rotating, the swimmer was moving over the sore
spot. Rotating more, his muscles worked differently, and there was no sore spot.

Quoted message said:

If the pain still persists I may ask them to have an x-ray of the shoulder joint to see if their
anatomy is simply prone to impingement.

Quoted message said:

Often I'll also ask them to keep a log in terms of their daily activities to see if something
presents itself as far as effecting their shoulders is concerned. Last week one of my male
swimmers - who reported shoulder pain all summer - confided in me that he had been at his computer
playing video games 8 hours a day, every day, all summer.

HA!

Quoted message said:

He's put up his mouse now that the school year is about to start and has reported the shoulder
pain is abating. You just never know.

Oh, very true!

Quoted message said:

Scott

"adrian" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Scott,

Thanks for the good advice but can you expand on what you mean by "shoulder roll"? Are you talking
about the amount of roll from side to side along the axis of the body?

As for taking note of my activities, it seems to me that it is these side-lying drills that are
the greatest problem for me. Last week I started doing them again after several weeks of not
bothering with them and immediately my shoulder reacted badly to them. I was wondering if doing
the drills with my thumb upwards would help reduce the problem - it seems like it would mean less
impingement and reduce any tendency to use the outstretched hand for support.

Regards,

Adrian.

Where exactly does your shoulder hurt?

Hi Adrian,

I have some swimmers - perhaps 3 out of 115 - who seem to have unfortunate anatomical features that
promote impingement. I specifically advise them to enter thumb up rather than little finger up. They
still pierce the water with a sharp point (their little finger) and still plane the hand around so
the palm faces down and then back as the wrist flexes and the hand-forearm moves down through the
entry and into the catch. We're still skinning the cat, though, which is to say we're still finding
a way to get the hand-forearm into what I call the "position of power" or the "fingers down, wrist
straight, elbow up" position. I don't advise anyone except sprinters (and only when we're doing
speed work) to apply power prior to attaining this position. At that point in the stroke, the
swimmer can exert force on the water since the hand-forearm has maximum surface area pointing back
and is optimally anchored. Why is this good?

MY personal First Law of Propulsive Biomechanics is this - to gain ideal leverage on the water means
to only apply force when you've attained the Position of Power, when either A. the hand-forearm will
move backward or, B. by the law of insertion, the shoulder will move forward. In reality they both
move a bit. With a great feel for the water we can manage NOT to let the hand "slip" backwards too
much. Therefore, the other end of the lever must move, i.e., the end of the lever attached to the
shoulder. Thus, the shoulder moves forward, thus the torso moves forward (because it's tightly
connected to the shoulder). Voila - forward propulsion.

Now to your question - I think you can easily practice the side lying position with both your arms
at your sides. That's called a "head lead" balancing drill. When the bottom arm is extended out
under the water and the other arm is laying on your thigh, that's called a "hand lead" balancing
drill. At some points in your stroke cycle, the arm is back near your side and at other times your
arm is extending out in front of you. At both places in the cycle you need to be balanced IN MY
OPINON, OF COURSE. Others would have you believe that you should be pitching and yawing through the
water. That seems excessively complicated to try to teach swimmers. Perhaps great natural athletes
can swim that way and get away with it. That's the 1 out of a 1000 who may swim well no matter what
you say to them because they've learned how to compensate so well for their own little
idiosyncracies. The other 999 of us need to learn how to be relaxed, balanced, and streamlined.

Scott

Hi Scott,

[email hidden] (Scott Lemley) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I specifically advise them to enter thumb up rather than little finger up.

Yes, I've been doing that in my regular swimming to some degree of success.

My analysis of my problem is that when I hold my arm out ahead of me for longer than normal I tend
to end up with a sore shoulder. Instances of this are side-lying drills and trying to increase my
glide by holding that stretched out position for a little longer before taking the catch.

Thanks for your suggestion of the "head leading" balance drill, I'll give it a try. BTW last night
in the pool I tried doing my "hand leading" drills with my thumbs upwards (i.e. palm facing towards
the side of the pool) and I felt that my shoulder was aggravated less.

I'd still appreciate some clarification on what you meant by rotation in your first response. If I
roll from side to side more in my regular swimming will I experience less impingement? If it's my
left shoulder that hurts, does this mean I need to roll more to the right or more to the left?

Thanks,

AD.