showers: what are local rules?

Steven Green' sgreen@no_server_entered.com said:

* What are the local rules or regulations regarding showering before swimming where you are.

Just about all the pools here in Auckland, New Zealand (and elsewhere in the country where I have
swum) all have signs saying they require you to shower before enering the pool.

I would estimate at about 10% or less the number of swimmers and pool users who actually pay any
attention to this.

I do not know of any local government by-law which mandates this and pool staff seem to have no
inclination whatsoever to enforce it. So I have joined the "great unwashed" in this regard.

Liz D

Steven Green sgreen@no_server_entered.com said:

wearing a swimsuit." The pool staff at a couple of the local pools I frequent simply interpret it
to mean "get your hair wet in the shower before entering the pool".

I suspect most areas end up with this one. You can't enforce anything else. Locally, the gov
response appears to be to have cranked up the spec'd chlorine levels.

--
Jason O'Rourke www.jor.com

Steven Green said:

* What are the local rules or regulations regarding showering before swimming where you are.

Wherever I have gone, there is either an actual law or simply a rule saying each person must take a
soap shower (suit off) before entering the pool. But I have never seen such rules enforced anywhere.
They aren't really enforceable, I think. Very few people take a soap shower before entering the
pool. I don't. I'm a two shower a day guy, but I don't take one before entering the pool.

One rule that can be enforced restricts the kind of swimming suit allowed. No cut-off jeans, etc.
You have to actually take off your clothes and put on a swimming suit, which is only a swimming
suit, not something else. Pool staff can actually enforce that one.

But there isn't much you can do about enforcing cleanliness. Just post the rules and post
charicatures that ridicule the bad hygene crowd.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Steven Green' sgreen@no_server_entered.com said:

Hi fellow swimmers!

I'm working on rallying the powers that be and hopefully getting some improvements done at our
local pools. I need some help on one item.

Our government is in the process of rewriting the legistlation, so the window to get my $0.02 in
is closing.

Here in British Columbia, Canada, the local legislation is somewhat vague and open to
interpretation. Regarding showering before a swim, it reads, "no bather is permitted to enter the
pool water until he has taken a cleansing shower, using warm water and soap." This sounds good
until you start asking the people that work at the various pools their interpretation of the rule.
Even various health inspectors have different interpretations of this. One health inspector told
me that she interprets that rule to require a "full shower, in the nude, with warm water and
soap". Another inspector I talked to said he interprets that rule to mean "a shower with warm
water and soap, possibly nude or possibly while wearing a swimsuit." The pool staff at a couple of
the local pools I frequent simply interpret it to mean "get your hair wet in the shower before
entering the pool".

I have done as much research as I can from Google, but am still coming up with a lot of blanks.
Apparently, MA and a few counties in various parts of the USA has legislation in place requiring a
"nude shower with warm water and soap" before swimming.

What I would like to know from the group is:

* What are the local rules or regulations regarding showering before swimming where you are.

Thanks, Steven

The pool I use has a sign saying something like "Swimmers who aren't toilet trained must wear a
swim diaper".

Steven Green' sgreen@no_server_entered.com said:

* What are the local rules or regulations regarding showering before swimming where you are.

We're supposed to shower before swimming, but I don't recall the exact language. Half the men's
locker room showers have hot water, but it is a long walk down public corridors from there to the
pool. The boy's showers right next to the pool only dribble and run cold. Once last year, the
lifeguard did make sure that I had showered before entering the pool.

Generally I wake up, shave, shower, put on my swimsuit, put on other clothing, drive to the pool,
remove clothing and swim. So I don't feel I'm getting that dirty in fifteen minutes. If I swim at
lunch time or in the evening, I do shower beforehand.

After renovations, I expect an enforcement binge, but maybe we'll have hot water next to the pool,
so it won't be so bad.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name to reply by e-mail)

Despite my suspicion there's hair on toes in this question, I'll kick my two cents in.

The DoH in New York City requires pools to post a sign that all swimmers must shower before entering
the pool. *Generally* enforcement is lax, and I'd estimate at my Y that about 30% of the adult
swimmers by-pass the shower altogether, another 20% take what I call a "dry" shower (as in a dry
martini; they barely soap up if at all) so that they have wet hair and skin going onto the deck, and
about half bother to take the time to shower fully. Of this half, I'd estimate it's about 50/50 nude
v. suited.

Now, this is a Y pool which means presumably that these folks can afford the dues and so have some
sense of civilized behavior and can obey social customs and mores. Likely, there's more voluntary
acceptance of this regulation here than at the public pools.

The kids, by the way, are checked randomly. I instituted this at my old Y when I lifeguarded there
many years ago, rubbing the inside of the wrist or ankle, or the back of the neck, to see if any
dirt rubbed off. I was pleased to see this Y has the same spot-check.

"Steven left this mess on Tue, 18 Mar 2003 02:12:27 GMT for The Way to clean up:

Quoted message said:

Hi fellow swimmers!

I'm working on rallying the powers that be and hopefully getting some improvements done at our
local pools. I need some help on one item.

Our government is in the process of rewriting the legistlation, so the window to get my $0.02 in
is closing.

Here in British Columbia, Canada, the local legislation is somewhat vague and open to
interpretation. Regarding showering before a swim, it reads, "no bather is permitted to enter the
pool water until he has taken a cleansing shower, using warm water and soap." This sounds good
until you start asking the people that work at the various pools their interpretation of the rule.
Even various health inspectors have different interpretations of this. One health inspector told
me that she interprets that rule to require a "full shower, in the nude, with warm water and
soap". Another inspector I talked to said he interprets that rule to mean "a shower with warm
water and soap, possibly nude or possibly while wearing a swimsuit." The pool staff at a couple of
the local pools I frequent simply interpret it to mean "get your hair wet in the shower before
entering the pool".

I have done as much research as I can from Google, but am still coming up with a lot of blanks.
Apparently, MA and a few counties in various parts of the USA has legislation in place requiring a
"nude shower with warm water and soap" before swimming.

What I would like to know from the group is:

* What are the local rules or regulations regarding showering before swimming where you are.

Thanks, Steven

Tao te Carl

In Helgi Briem said:

I remember with disgust a pool I used in England where no one showered beforehand and there was a
glistening slick of grease on the pool surface.

That would happen at any outdoor pool here. Even if everyone showered before swimming (very few
do), most patrons immediately coat themselves with oil and sunscreen. When they get in the water
(usually just to wade a bit), the oil washes off and even the supposedly "waterproof" sunscreens
leave an oil slick.

At least the indoor pools don't have that problem.

Ross

Ross Bogue said:

In Helgi Briem said:

I remember with disgust a pool I used in England where no one showered beforehand and there was
a glistening slick of grease on the pool surface.

That would happen at any outdoor pool here. Even if everyone showered before swimming (very few
do), most patrons immediately coat themselves with oil and sunscreen. When they get in the water
(usually just to wade a bit), the oil washes off and even the supposedly "waterproof" sunscreens
leave an oil slick.

At least the indoor pools don't have that problem.

All the showers in China won't get rid of snot. Snot comes out in the pool. That's just the
way it is.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Ahem. Well, thanks for the responses so far. It seems that few of us understand the actual reason
for the shower before the swim. I have done a fair bit of research on this topic, and although it's
a bit disgusting, I will attempt to enlighten a few people.

Things everyone needs to understand about pool filtration:

1. The chemicals in the water combined with the mechanical filters make up the pool's
filtration system.

2. The effectiveness of the chlorine is reduced by: soap, skin oil, suntan lotion/oil, cosmetics,
perfume/cologne, detergent (from swimsuits that weren't rinsed very well after washing), and
other things.

3. Chlorine gives off almost no odour--unless it's got bacteria and other germs to disinfect.

4. Urine in the pool is the least of your worries. With the exception of someone who has a bladder
infection, urine is steryl and therefore contains no bacteria.

5. Cryptosporidium, Giardia, E. coli, and Shigella are easily spread via fecal matter (aka. [censored]).
Chlorine is not an instant disinfectant against several of these, and can take hours to
completely kill some of them, notably Cryptosporidium and E. coli.

6. Virtually everyone has traces of fecal matter in and around their rectums. While swimming, this
will be "washed" away from your body and be suspended in the water. If other swimmers ingest
this...they could experience mild to violent "flu-like" symptoms.

7. The only effective method of removing the nearly invisible fecal matter is to have a shower with
soap before swimming, without a swimsuit on. There is no need to vigorously scrub your butt--just
a normal shower with a normal wash of your rear end with soap is fine. Be careful to rinse the
soap from your body.

This is precisely why some states, and some districts have legislated nude soap showers before
swimming. I think, generally, the areas that don't have any rules requiring showers before swimming
just don't understand the facts. Spend some time on the US CDC (Center for Disease Control) website,
and do some searching with Google.

So before you swim next time, have a nice warm shower with soap--and without your swimsuit. And
suggest that everyone else have one too. If your pool isn't enforcing showers for everyone, complain
to management. It's for your health.

Steven

PS - and no, I did not make any of this up!

Steven Green <sgreen@no_server_entered.com> wrote:

[snip good info]

Quoted message said:

So before you swim next time, have a nice warm shower with soap--and without your swimsuit. And
suggest that everyone else have one too. If your pool isn't enforcing showers for everyone,
complain to management. It's for your health.

changing room in which I can strip off (if the queue isn't too long).
--
BD

(Liz D) said:

Steven Green' sgreen@no_server_entered.com said:

* What are the local rules or regulations regarding showering before swimming where you are.

Just about all the pools here in Auckland, New Zealand (and elsewhere in the country where I have
swum) all have signs saying they require you to shower before enering the pool.

I would estimate at about 10% or less the number of swimmers and pool users who actually pay any
attention to this.

I do not know of any local government by-law which mandates this and pool staff seem to have no
inclination whatsoever to enforce it. So I have joined the "great unwashed" in this regard.

Yeuch!

Here in Iceland, showering and washing with soap is compulsory and fairly well enforced by the pool
staff. Everyone I have seen washes except for the occasional child.

But then of course we get away with having very low levels of chlorine compared to other countries
because a) everyone is clean and b) there is fairly rapid cycling of the pool water.

I remember with disgust a pool I used in England where no one showered beforehand and there was a
glistening slick of grease on the pool surface.

--
Regards, Helgi Briem helgi AT decode DOT is

"Steven Green" <sgreen@no_server_entered.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.03.18.18.34.41.432860@no_server_entered.com...

Quoted message said:

<snip> 1. The chemicals in the water
2. The effectiveness of the chlorine
3. Chlorine gives off almost no
4. Urine in the pool is the least of your worries.
5. Cryptosporidium, Giardia, E. coli,
6. Virtually everyone has traces
7. The only effective method

....... and then someone sneezes, farts or pees in the water and all that planning becomes a load
of garbage.

I haven't heard of an outbreak of anything occuring from any modern pool anywhere in recent times.
It rather smacks of "Cotton Wool'ism" and wrapping yourself up so the "tiny things cant me".

It appears that people can't get a true assessment of risk in anything they
do. By the same hysterical logic shown by Steven you would certainly never drive a car - the
likelyhood of injury or death being far greater. You also wouldn't drink alcohol, rollerblade or
ski, endeavours much more likely to do you harm.

The number of people driving while on their mobile phone worries me a hell of a lot more than
non-showering at pools.

I now wonder if Icelanders ever kiss each other passionately? Are they a

physical danger (although drowning is unlikely) than modern swimming pools.

Perhaps Steven would suggest that an inspection of bodily parts after showering might be the only
way we could possibly be safe in the knowledge that they held no external bacteria? Oh God - What
about internal bacteria? Germinating inside the body and waiting to burst out and attack swimmers?

I've got the answer.........a throat swab before swimming.......

Nah!

Wayne
--
DrClean www.DrClean.co.uk The Best Fabric Cleaning Resource on the Web

I agree with you. We have a pool near home that has coed showers in the family change room. I'm not
shy, but I'm not an exhibitionist either. I would like them to do something about it...but I have no
idea what to suggest or how they could go about it.

If the government here would change our legislation to require showers without swimsuits, then I'm
sure they would have to do something.

Steven

Brian D said:

changing room in which I can strip off (if the queue isn't too long).

DrClean said:

"Steven Green" <sgreen@no_server_entered.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.03.18.18.34.41.432860@no_server_entered.com...

Quoted message said:

<snip> 1. The chemicals in the water
2. The effectiveness of the chlorine
3. Chlorine gives off almost no
4. Urine in the pool is the least of your worries.
5. Cryptosporidium, Giardia, E. coli,
6. Virtually everyone has traces
7. The only effective method

....... and then someone sneezes, farts or pees in the water and all that planning becomes a load
of garbage.

Well, peeing is completely harmless as Steven said. When it comes to bacteria, numbers is the main
thing. Not type, number. Washing reduces the numbers. Farting does not release significant numbers
of bacteria.

Overchlorination is the most unpleasant thing in a swimming pool and there is some evidence that it
may contribute to asthma. Clean habits reduce greatly the need for chlorination. Foreign guests have
often remarked to me that Icelandic pools are much nicer to swim in because of the low chlorine
levels compared to US and UK pools.

Quoted message said:

The number of people driving while on their mobile phone worries me a hell of a lot more than
non-showering at pools.

Neither worries me *at all*. My pool using experience is made more pleasant when the pool is clean.

Quoted message said:

I now wonder if Icelanders ever kiss each other passionately?

Stupid question.

Quoted message said:

Are they a dieing race of people?

Not at all. We have high standards of personal hygiene. We fell it is discourteous to inflict your
fecal matter, snot, body odour and cosmetics on other people when enjoying a social experience in
close physical proximity to each other naked (over 60%swim more than once a month, 11% twice or
more weekly).

--
Regards, Helgi Briem helgi AT decode DOT is

Ross Bogue said:

In Helgi Briem said:

I remember with disgust a pool I used in England where no one showered beforehand and there was a
glistening slick of grease on the pool surface.

That would happen at any outdoor pool here. Even if everyone showered before swimming (very few
do), most patrons immediately coat themselves with oil and sunscreen. When they get in the water
(usually just to wade a bit), the oil washes off and even the supposedly "waterproof" sunscreens
leave an oil slick.

At least the indoor pools don't have that problem.

It was an indoor pool. There was no sun.

I have swum all my life in outdoor pools.

That was the only time I have ever seen an oil slick on the pool.

No one showered before entering the pool except for myself and four other Icelanders who had been
brought up doing it.

--
Regards, Helgi Briem helgi AT decode DOT is

Helgi Briem said:

DrClean said:

"Steven Green" <sgreen@no_server_entered.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2003.03.18.18.34.41.432860@no_server_entered.com...

Quoted message said:

<snip> 1. The chemicals in the water
2. The effectiveness of the chlorine
3. Chlorine gives off almost no
4. Urine in the pool is the least of your worries.
5. Cryptosporidium, Giardia, E. coli,
6. Virtually everyone has traces
7. The only effective method

....... and then someone sneezes, farts or pees in the water and all that planning becomes a load
of garbage.

Well, peeing is completely harmless as Steven said. When it comes to bacteria, numbers is the main
thing. Not type, number. Washing reduces the numbers. Farting does not release significant numbers
of bacteria.

Yes, washing, but most people do wash when they finish taking a [censored]. I know I do. I don't walk
around all day with dingle berries. Why, those silly French, who prefer to successful inspections
over starting a war, have ass washing equipment installed in every WC. Why not install bidets at
swimming pools instead of insisting on full soap showers, which consume enormous energy heating
water and release extra soapy water into the environment?

As the CDC site explains, most bacteria are killed within 1 minute in properly maintained pools.
Most infections spread at pools are spread by people who are sick, or by infants and small children
who are not washed properly by their parents.

Quoted message said:

Overchlorination is the most unpleasant thing in a swimming pool and there is some evidence that
it may contribute to asthma. Clean habits reduce greatly the need for chlorination. Foreign guests
have often remarked to me that Icelandic pools are much nicer to swim in because of the low
chlorine levels compared to US and UK pools.

Then your pools are actually more dangerous, because any infected person who swims in them will
release bacteria that will not be killed immediately.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The number of people driving while on their mobile phone worries me a hell of a lot more than
non-showering at pools.

Neither worries me *at all*. My pool using experience is made more pleasant when the pool
is clean.

Quoted message said:

I now wonder if Icelanders ever kiss each other passionately?

Stupid question.

You mean they don't? That's a reasonable conclusion considering your support of Steven's argument.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Are they a dieing race of people?

Not at all. We have high standards of personal hygiene. We fell it is discourteous to inflict your
fecal matter, snot, body odour and cosmetics on other people when enjoying a social experience in
close physical proximity to each other naked (over 60%swim more than once a month, 11% twice or
more weekly).

In other words, you don't enforce these habits. They are cultural. It will surprise you to learn
that most of the western world is the same. We just don't depend on it as much as you.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Helgi Briem said:

Ross Bogue said:

In Helgi Briem said:

I remember with disgust a pool I used in England where no one showered beforehand and there was
a glistening slick of grease on the pool surface.

That would happen at any outdoor pool here. Even if everyone showered before swimming (very few
do), most patrons immediately coat themselves with oil and sunscreen. When they get in the water
(usually just to wade a bit), the oil washes off and even the supposedly "waterproof" sunscreens
leave an oil slick.

At least the indoor pools don't have that problem.

It was an indoor pool. There was no sun.

I have swum all my life in outdoor pools.

That was the only time I have ever seen an oil slick on the pool.

No one showered before entering the pool except for myself and four other Icelanders who had been
brought up doing it.

If by showering you mean a soap shower, most pool users don't shower in the UK, US, Australia, etc.
The oil slick you saw meant the filter system wasn't working properly. The rest of the world just
isn't has hygenic as Iceland. You will just have to get used to that fact.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway

Martin W. Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Overchlorination is the most unpleasant thing in a swimming pool and there is some evidence that
it may contribute to asthma. Clean habits reduce greatly the need for chlorination. Foreign
guests have often remarked to me that Icelandic pools are much nicer to swim in because of the
low chlorine levels compared to US and UK pools.

Then your pools are actually more dangerous, because any infected person who swims in them will
release bacteria that will not be killed immediately.

The danger is negligible. I am a biologist. Pools in most countries are *grossly* overchlorinated in
the wake of AIDS hysteria.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not at all. We have high standards of personal hygiene. We fell it is discourteous to inflict
your fecal matter, snot, body odour and cosmetics on other people when enjoying a social
experience in close physical proximity to each other naked (over 60% swim more than once a month,
11% twice or more weekly).

In other words, you don't enforce these habits.

Yes, we do enforce those habits. It's just that it's only necessary with children under the age of 8
or so and tourists. Others wash voluntarily and without any prompting.

Quoted message said:

They are cultural.

Cultural as opposed to what? Genetic? Of course they're cultural.

Quoted message said:

It will surprise you to learn that most of the western world is the same.

Why should it surprise me? I lived for years in the UK. The British are perfectly hygienic, just
not when it comes to swimming pools and that is 100% because they are shy about taking their
clothes off in front of others, not for any lack of hygiene. If private showers were provided most
of them would wash.

Quoted message said:

We just don't depend on it as much as you.

I'm not sure what that means. It's a matter of common courtesy, not public health.
--
Regards, Helgi Briem helgi AT decode DOT is

Helgi Briem said:

Martin W. Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Overchlorination is the most unpleasant thing in a swimming pool and there is some evidence
that it may contribute to asthma. Clean habits reduce greatly the need for chlorination.
Foreign guests have often remarked to me that Icelandic pools are much nicer to swim in because
of the low chlorine levels compared to US and UK pools.

Then your pools are actually more dangerous, because any infected person who swims in them will
release bacteria that will not be killed immediately.

The danger is negligible. I am a biologist. Pools in most countries are *grossly* overchlorinated
in the wake of AIDS hysteria.

I've not seen that problem anywhere, except by mistakes in pool maintenance having nothing to do
with AIDS hysteria. I've not seen AIDS hysteria anywhere, actually, so I suspect your mentioning it
might be due to the same isolation which has kept Old Norse alive.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not at all. We have high standards of personal hygiene. We fell it is discourteous to inflict
your fecal matter, snot, body odour and cosmetics on other people when enjoying a social
experience in close physical proximity to each other naked (over 60% swim more than once a
month, 11% twice or more weekly).

In other words, you don't enforce these habits.

Yes, we do enforce those habits. It's just that it's only necessary with children under the age of
8 or so and tourists. Others wash voluntarily and without any prompting.

Washing voluntarily without prompting = not enforced.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They are cultural.

Cultural as opposed to what? Genetic? Of course they're cultural.

Cultural as opposed to enforced law.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It will surprise you to learn that most of the western world is the same.

Why should it surprise me? I lived for years in the UK. The British are perfectly hygienic, just
not when it comes to swimming pools and that is 100% because they are shy about taking their
clothes off in front of others, not for any lack of hygiene. If private showers were provided most
of them would wash.

I think you are wrong about the extent of such shyness. Most people do wash. They just do it at the
point where and when it becomes necessary, which is why washing again at the pool is not
particularly important. Small children don't wash, which is most of the problem.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We just don't depend on it as much as you.

I'm not sure what that means. It's a matter of common courtesy, not public health.

But we are discussing public health. Proving you are clean by taking a shower in public is not a
common courtesy.

martin

--
Martin Smith email: [email hidden] Vollsveien 9 tel. : +47 6783 1188
P.O. Box 482 mob. : +47 932 48 303 1327 Lysaker, Norway