Show Me Don't Bleat .

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You are all fond of requiring you scientific evidence when
it suits you ,

I

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need some . Point me to web sites that prove conclusively
, scientifically

substantiated

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that the eating of apricot kernels provably caused a death
beyond doubt . For every substantiated one I will give you
two at least who succumbed

from

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effects of chemotherapy

Bow

Science does not prove conclusively beyond doubt. Doubt is
the stuff that science is made of. Besides that, cause of
death is seldom as specific as that. When a person is very
ill with AIDS, then dies of pneumonia, did the AIDS kill
him, or the pneumonia? The deaths that can be attributed to
eating apricot kernels are mostly not from cyanide
poisoning, but rather from abandoning effective cancer
therapy. Some of those who did so would have been cured;
some would have died anyway. It is not possible to sort out
which are which.

--Rich

Quoted message said:

Subject: Show Me Don't Bleat .
From: "Bew" qw@nonamewhatsover
Date: 4/1/2004 8:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

scientifically substantiated that the eating of apricot
kernels provably caused a death beyond doubt .

in most cases...these are people who have already tried and
failed at conventional therapy for cancer

they die of the cancer....not of the treatment

in the case of folks who START with altie treatment for
cancer...it is MORE likely they will die of untreated
disease...

Quoted message said:

For every substantiated one I will give you two at least
who succumbed from effects of chemotherapy

there is no doubt that chemo knocks out one's immune
system...which is what it is supposed to do....

they die of effects of this..ie infection..

however without the chemo most will succumb from the cancer
sooner... hawki.....

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You are all fond of requiring you scientific evidence
when it suits you

,

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

need some . Point me to web sites that prove
conclusively , scientifically

substantiated

Quoted message said:

that the eating of apricot kernels provably caused a
death beyond doubt

.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For every substantiated one I will give you two at least
who succumbed

from

Quoted message said:

effects of chemotherapy

Bow

Science does not prove conclusively beyond doubt. Doubt
is the stuff that science is made of. Besides that, cause
of death is seldom as specific as that. When a person is
very ill with AIDS, then dies of pneumonia, did the AIDS
kill him, or the pneumonia? The deaths that can be
attributed to

eating

Quoted message said:

apricot kernels are mostly not from cyanide poisoning,
but rather from abandoning effective cancer therapy. Some
of those who did so would have been cured; some would
have died anyway. It is not possible to sort out which
are which.

--Rich

Actually. when a cancer patient dies, it is often not clear
why they died at that particular point in time, after
apparently being just as ill or weak for quite some time. I
can understand why lay people scratch around for answers and
can attribute the decline and death to chemotherapy. Bew's
claim is utter nonsense, or at least a gross exaggeration,
but I understand how such a belief can arise in those with
little experience of cancer.

It is also unfortunately true that a lot of chemotherapy is
used in desperate circumstances where it is not likely to to
do much good. In "alternative" medicine the last-ditch usage
of methods that have little or no chance of working is
applauded, while terminally biassed people like Bew can only
see sinister motives if doctors respond to similar
pressures.

Is it true that American oncologists can profit from the
sale of chemotherapeutic agents to their patients? I find
that extraordinary, if true. Selling drugs to patients is a
serious offense in Australia and England.

Peter Moran

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:Lr-dnSA5UIkl1PHdRVn-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You are all fond of requiring you scientific evidence
when it suits

you

Quoted message said:

,

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

need some . Point me to web sites that prove
conclusively , scientifically

substantiated

Quoted message said:

that the eating of apricot kernels provably caused a
death beyond

doubt

Quoted message said:

.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For every substantiated one I will give you two at
least who succumbed

from

Quoted message said:

effects of chemotherapy

Bow

Science does not prove conclusively beyond doubt. Doubt
is the stuff

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

science is made of. Besides that, cause of death is
seldom as specific

as

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that. When a person is very ill with AIDS, then dies of
pneumonia, did

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AIDS kill him, or the pneumonia? The deaths that can be
attributed to

eating

Quoted message said:

apricot kernels are mostly not from cyanide poisoning,
but rather from abandoning effective cancer therapy.
Some of those who did so would have been cured; some
would have died anyway. It is not possible to sort out
which are which.

--Rich

Actually. when a cancer patient dies, it is often not
clear why they died

at

Quoted message said:

that particular point in time, after apparently being just
as ill or weak for quite some time. I can understand why
lay people scratch around for answers and can attribute
the decline and death to chemotherapy. Bew's claim is
utter nonsense, or at least a gross exaggeration, but I

understand

Quoted message said:

how such a belief can arise in those with little
experience of cancer.

It is also unfortunately true that a lot of chemotherapy
is used in desperate circumstances where it is not likely
to to do much good. In "alternative" medicine the last-
ditch usage of methods that have little or no chance of
working is applauded, while terminally biassed people like

Bew

Quoted message said:

can only see sinister motives if doctors respond to
similar pressures.

Is it true that American oncologists can profit from the
sale of chemotherapeutic agents to their patients? I find
that extraordinary, if true. Selling drugs to patients is
a serious offense in Australia and England.

Peter Moran

...........................................................-
................. .......... Please don't answer a question
with a question as a politician does , you have sidestepped
the issue . You people are always the ones bleating on about
how apricot kernels and alternative approaches are an abject
failure , not only that , they are downright dangerous and
have been responsible for deaths .

Without arguing about the effectiveness of either chemo or
alternative , all I am asking for is proof that apricot
kernels have been responsible for deaths . After all , if we
can believe what we read , there are thousands and thousands
of people out there who do use this supposedly dangerous and
deadly substance , I certainly do plus others I know , so it
would logically follow that recorded deaths from such a
substance abuse would be well known
. In fact you know full well that the powerful media
machines of the drug companies would make sure such
instances were worldwide headlines.

I can certainly show you examples of where people have been
done in by chemo because even the advocates of the
treatment admit that it destroys good as well as bad tissue
and that it destroys the immune system .

You state " It is also unfortunately true that a lot of
chemotherapy is used in desperate circumstances where it is
not likely to do much good " , who do you think you are
kidding ? , chemotherapy is the number one weapon , talk
about meddling with reality , get real .

The majority of people who end up seeking alternative help
have usually been given up for dead by the conventional
system, they have been told to get their things in order ,
we can do no more for you . If the conventional system has
failed then do you think it has any right to try and control
the freedom of choice of individuals who seek other means to
treat their illness from this point on ? . Should you agree
in principle with , that , yes people do have that right ,
then I would put it to you that freedom of choice is not
about desperation and last ditch attempts .

Everyone has the right to freedom of choice , do you believe
in censorship ? , where someone who thinks they know better
or more than you dictates what you may read and view , I
doubt very much you do . How then can you and your peers set
yourselves up as medical censors ? , I and everyone else
have the perfect right to seek and believe what we choose to
believe , you may agree or disagree , fine . The parents of
the children with cancer mentioned in a previous post had
every right to seek alternative care for their child .

This is where we come down to the real difference between
the two approaches,like it or not , it is the major problem
with the medical profession even though they constantly deny
it , they truly think they have the power of god and have
the right to dictate to those who do not wish to be dictated
to . Not only that they also bring to bear the force of the
law to ensure that everyone understands just who is boss .

Well not everyone does think you guys and gals are the be
all and the end all of healthcare and not everyone wants
what you have , so get over it .

PS : the statement by Rich " Science does not prove
conclusively beyond doubt. Doubt is the stuff that
science is made of." , is a statement we all should
copy into a text file so we can produce it the next
time one of you asks for scientific evidence on an
alternative approach .

I am still waiting for the answer to the original question .

Bew

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... ...> ..........

Quoted message said:

Please don't answer a question with a question as a
politician does , you have sidestepped the issue . You
people are always the ones bleating on about how apricot
kernels and alternative approaches are an abject failure

,

Quoted message said:

not only that , they are downright dangerous and have been
responsible for deaths .

Without arguing about the effectiveness of either chemo or
alternative ,

all

Quoted message said:

I am asking for is proof that apricot kernels have been
responsible for deaths . ...

Consuming apricot kernels may not directly cause death...
the dose is probably too small. But it will not help. It may
actually turn into a cause of stomach cancer (just an idle
speculation).

Here are a couple of notes from the FDA (by the way, a check
using the search engine in www.fda.gov for laetrile brings
up lots of interesting things, like oral histories of FDA
officers dealing with snake oil peddlers):
fda.govANS00309.htmlOpen ↗

fda.govCON00128.htmlOpen ↗

"HCN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:yYEbc.171301$1p.2093481@attbi_s54...

Quoted message said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... ...> ..........

Quoted message said:

Please don't answer a question with a question as a
politician does ,

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have sidestepped the issue . You people are always the
ones bleating on about how apricot kernels and
alternative approaches are an abject

failure

Quoted message said:

,

Quoted message said:

not only that , they are downright dangerous and have
been responsible

for

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

deaths .

Without arguing about the effectiveness of either chemo
or alternative ,

all

Quoted message said:

I am asking for is proof that apricot kernels have been
responsible for deaths . ...

Consuming apricot kernels may not directly cause death...
the dose is probably too small. But it will not help. It
may actually turn into a cause of stomach cancer (just an
idle speculation).

equilibra.uk.comvitb17.shtmlOpen ↗

"Notes: Some government health departments believe that
apricot kernels produce toxic reactions when taken in
excessive doses. For this reason, we recommend that not more
than 60 seeds per day should be consumed as per the United
States Food & Drug Administration guidelines."

vinton.osu.edutoxic.htmlOpen ↗

From a pro-laetrile site:

thefountainoflife.wshowsafe.htmOpen ↗

Never combine oral Laetrile with raw almonds or raw apricot
kernels, or raw vegetable or bean sprouts, as these are high
in the cyanide-releasing beta-glucosidase enzyme.

behaviour-behaviour-Open ↗
problems.freeserve.co.uk/2/Health/poisonplants.htm

Apricot Kernel Kernels contain cyanide. Children have died
from eating too many kernels!

Snip

"M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t-April 3, 2004" <M.a.r.k P.r.o.b.e.r.t
[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...snip...> From a pro-laetrile site:

thefountainoflife.wshowsafe.htmOpen ↗

Never combine oral Laetrile with raw almonds or raw
apricot kernels, or

raw

Quoted message said:

vegetable or bean sprouts, as these are high in the cyanide-
releasing beta-glucosidase enzyme.

behaviour-behaviour-Open ↗
problems.freeserve.co.uk/2/Health/poisonplants.htm

Apricot Kernel Kernels contain cyanide. Children have died
from eating

too

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many kernels!

Snip

...

Thanks... this is good information. Especially the
garden sites.

Reminds of when I went to a garden design talk while we were
landscaping the yard (sticking mosly to edibles and trying
to avoid plants that could harm our then small children). It
was amusing and kind of shocking when the garden designer
put up a slide of a caster bean plant combined with elephant
ears. Yikes!!

By the way, planting edibles is no guarentee of avoiding
plants harmful to children (note the cautions on many of the
fruit tree pits). I had elderberries for a couple of
years... until I saw a list just like you pointed to. They
were also big and messy... so they got shovel pruned.

Now that the kids are older and not prone to chewing on
plants for fun... I have added delphiniums, wisteria,
hyacynths and daffodils, just because I like them.